My Response To Jeremy Runnells Part 5 Daniel Peterson

[MormonFreeThinker]

Jeremy wrote, "I do not welcome outrageous personal ad hominem attacks and deliberate and blatant deception and misrepresentations." 

 

LOL but his letter is all about that 

 

Jeremy wrote, "The CES Letter is a "big list" because the CES Director requested the list of reasons why I no longer believe in the LDS Church's truth claims"

 

Very sad that misleading information destroyed his testimony. 

 

Jeremy wrote, "Peterson and now the Church (through its new Book of Mormon and DNA Studies essay reversing 180 years of past prophetic teachings"

 

I was looking for clear statements made by prophets in official church publications, statements about the idea that the Book of Mormon peoples were alone, but I did not find any.  

 

Jeremy quoted Elder Holland, but Elder Holland was not an apostle when he made that statement, and his statement is kind of ambiguous.   

 

Very misleading Jeremy!  

 

Jeremy wrote, "I was hoping that Peterson was going to give us credible and accessible sources such as non-Mormon archaeologists/anthropologists, non-BYU peer-reviewed papers and the findings of non-Mormon respected institutions and organizations such as the Smithsonian Institute and National Geographic"

 

Sorenson's book is about reasonable possibilities, not about proof. 

 

Jeremy wrote, "Limited Geography apologists are going against Joseph Smith and 180 years of teachings from the Church and its "prophets, seers and revelators" on this topic." 

 

Joseph Smith did believe in a Hemispheric geography, but I couldn't find a 20th century statement made by a prophet in official church publications that clearly contradicts the Limited Geography. There are some that appear to contradict a Limited Geography, but not really if you think about it. Maybe there are some, but hard to find statements are clearly not core doctrine. 

 

Jeremy wrote, "Why is what every single prophet, including Joseph Smith (who claimed to have been taught about Book of Mormon civilizations by the inhabitants themselves), believed about the Book of Mormon wrong? Are unofficial apologists such as Daniel C. Peterson to now be believed over the latter-day prophets, seers, and revelators?"

 

Jeremy ignored what Peterson wrote, and presented no evidence for his "every single prophet" accusation. 

 

Jeremy wrote, "Elder L. Tom Perry disagrees with FairMormon's fringe Limited Geography theory. He's quoted in the December 2012 Ensign as stating: "The United States is the promised land foretold in the Book of Mormon."

 

More evidence that Jeremy doesn't read FairMormon, FairMormon completely agrees with Elder Perry. 

 

Jeremy wrote, "Moroni traveled 2,000 miles from Mesoamerica to the other Hill Cumorah in New York to bury the heavy gold plates that were not used because Joseph Smith's face was instead in a hat looking at a common rock?" 

 

The Golden Plates were not necessary for the translation, but they were necessary for the witnesses to see them. Another straw man.  

 

Jeremy wrote, "Peterson can wave away and dismiss dozens of Book of Mormon geographical names that align to and are similar to names of places in Joseph Smith's own backyard but yet Peterson is adamant that an "NHM" inscription on an altar in Yemen is solid evidence for "Nahom" and it's his "favorite" evidence for the Book of Mormon. Apparently, the irony is lost to Peterson." 

 

Holley's map cherry picks the "similarities", The Book of Mormon contains 345 names and Holley's map area contains hundreds of place names, it is not hard to cherry pick. 

 

We only expect to find one place name in Arabia, that place is Nahom. NHM was found in the exact place where Nahom is expected to be at, and NHM dates to 600 BC. There were few tribes and place names in that area around 600 BC. That is drawing the target before shooting the arrow. 

 

Jeremy wrote, "Never mind that there are at least four known cities following the "NHM" name pattern in Israel and Iran alone suggesting the name pattern "NHM" is not especially rare in names in Semitic languages."

 

Irrelevant, there are thousands of places in Israel and Iran, that is drawing the target after shooting the arrow. What cities is he talking about?  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_cities

 

"NHM" is not especially rare in names in Semitic languages."

Did Joseph Smith know what? 

 

Jeremy quoted, "Now, here's the problem: if the "NHM" carving truly was "Book of Mormon evidence"---and if the Book of Mormon storyline as I've outlined here were true---then scholars should be able to find a million times more items of physical evidence for the Book of Mormon culture somewhere in the Americas than the single stone carving in Yemen." 

 

The problem is that Jeremy doesn't read FairMormon 

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/behind-the-mask-behind-the-curtain-uncovering-the-illusion-a-review-of-the-bible-vs-the-book-of-mormon

 

Jeremy wrote, "this is deliberate and systematic fraud on the part of the LDS Church as the Church knows the art is dishonest and deceptive but it continues to commission the deceptive art in its buildings and materials anyway.It is high time the Church not only corrects the art to match the actual historical record but become transparent to the members in that Joseph used a rock in a hat for the Book of Mormon translation"

 

The Church is doing that, but it is not necessary to change the art, I totally disagree. 

The art sends a message, the message is that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. The art is not about the historical details and exact replicas, it is simply a message. Church building are not museums or a university history course. Most people do not know 19th century history and do not understand 19th century mentality, most people will not understand a painting of Joseph Smith with his face on a hat.  

 

Jeremy wrote, "Not only does Peterson completely ignore these 34 parallels between the two books but he has the audacity to claim that it's "just not similar at all."

The 34 parallels can be ignored, I explain why here 

 

 

Jeremy wrote, "Hales' personal conclusions and positions to be extremely disturbing and unreasonable."

 

 That is not what historians think, they may not completely agree with Hales, but they do not think his conclusions are disturbing and unreasonable.  

Edited October 2, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Robert F. Smith]

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Jeremy wrote, "I was hoping that Peterson was going to give us credible and accessible sources such as non-Mormon archaeologists/ anthropologists, non-BYU peer-reviewed papers and the findings of non-Mormon respected institutions and organizations such as the Smithsonian Institute and National Geographic"

 

Sorenson's book is about reasonable possibilities, not about proof.

You say "Peterson" in the above comment, when you apparently mean Sorenson.

 

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Jeremy wrote, "Peterson can wave away and dismiss dozens of Book of Mormon geographical names that align to and are similar to names of places in Joseph Smith's own backyard but yet Peterson is adamant that an "NHM" inscription on an altar in Yemen is solid evidence for "Nahom" and it's his "favorite" evidence for the Book of Mormon. Apparently, the irony is lost to Peterson." 

 

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We only expect to find one place name in Arabia, that place is Nahom. NHM was found in the exact place where Nahom is expected to be at, and NHM dates to 600 BC. There were few tribes and place names in that area around 600 BC. That is drawing the target before shooting the arrow. 

 

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Jeremy quoted, "Now, here's the problem: if the "NHM" carving truly was "Book of Mormon evidence"---and if the Book of Mormon storyline as I've outlined here were true---then scholars should be able to find a million times more items of physical evidence for the Book of Mormon culture somewhere in the Americas than the single stone carving in Yemen."

Twice you and Jeremy speak of only "one place name," "the single stone carving in Yemen" with NHM.  There are actually three such stone altars at the Barʼan temple near Marib (capital of ancient Sabaʼ), in the Yemen, all dating to ca. 630 to 580 B.C.   In addition, Nihm is the name of a still extant and large Yemenite tribe, within whose territory there was an extensive cemetery in Yemen, 100 miles east of Luhaiya and 25 miles south of Sanˁa, the current capital of the Yemen.  At the time that Clan Lehi traversed that area, South Arabia was at its cultural peak, with large and rich cities, all due to the trade in incense.

 

However, it isn't only one place in Arabia which fits the Book of Mormon names:  We also have Bountiful, for which several condidates exist along the Yemeni and Omani coast.  And all of them feature a lush South Arabian coastal area currently with large permanent fresh-water ponds, springs, wild honey, figs, date palms, tamarind trees, acacia, frankincense and myrrh trees, iron ore, hyrax, fox, porcupine, snake, wild tahr-goat, and leopard, along with fish and lobster in the bay.  One can still find oryx in the Asir Mountains of nearby Saudi Arabia.  One of them (favored by Warren Aston) even has a name meaning "Bountiful, Abundant," and that is Khor Kharfot at Wadi Sayq in Oman.  Kharfot is a Mahri term meaning "Bountiful, Abundant," and Khor means "inlet."  See Aston's latest article on the area online at http://www.wmenews.com/newsletters/1366812925wmenews _V6_I4_eng.pdf .

 

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Jeremy wrote, "this is deliberate and systematic fraud on the part of the LDS Church as the Church knows the art is dishonest and deceptive but it continues to commission the deceptive art in its buildings and materials anyway.It is high time the Church not only corrects the art to match the actual historical record but become transparent to the members in that Joseph used a rock in a hat for the Book of Mormon translation"

 

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Jeremy wrote, "Not only does Peterson completely ignore these 34 parallels between the two books but he has the audacity to claim that it's "just not similar at all."

The 34 parallels can be ignored, I explain why here

Your explanation is absent.  You forgot to insert it here.

 

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[MormonFreeThinker]

Twice you and Jeremy speak of only "one place name," "the single stone carving in Yemen" with NHM.  There are actually three such stone altars at the Barʼan temple near Marib (capital of ancient Sabaʼ), in the Yemen, all dating to ca. 630 to 580 B.C.  

 

 

To clarify, the only unknown Book of Mormon place name in the Near East is Nahom. The other place names mentioned in the Book of Mormon are well known, places like Jerusalem, Babylon, the Red Sea. The Nahom cemetery was unknown in the 19th century, but not anymore.   I agree with what you are saying. 

 

My point is that you cannot compare the Arabian evidence to the Holley's map. The Book of Mormon contains 345 names and Holley's map area contains hundreds of place names, so it is easy to cherry pick. It is easy to make meaningless comparisons when you have a big list of names. 

 

 At the time that Clan Lehi traversed that area, South Arabia was at its cultural peak, with large and rich cities, all due to the trade in incense.

 

 

Thanks, I did not know that. 

 

 

However, it isn't only one place in Arabia which fits the Book of Mormon names

 

I agree, and everything in Arabia matches the Book of Mormon account, but Nahom is the only place name. Bountiful is not an official place name, "we did come to the land which we called Bountiful" 1 Ne 17: 5

 

 

Your explanation is absent.  You forgot to insert it here.

 

True, sorry 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64108-my-response-to-jeremy-runnells-part-2-plagiarism-accusations-and-spiritual-experiences/

 

Or simply see the video 

 

Edited October 3, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Robert F. Smith]

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My point is that you cannot compare the Arabian evidence to the Holley's map. The Book of Mormon contains 345 names and Holley's map area contains hundreds of place names, so it is easy to cherry pick. It is easy to make meaningless comparisons when you have a big list of names.

Yes.  See L. Ara Norwood, "Review of Vernal Holley, Book of Mormon Authorship: A Closer Look," FARMS Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, 1/1 (1989), online at http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1424&index=10 .  One of Holley's biggest problems is that he is using modern maps and including place-names that didn't even exist in Joseph Smith's time.

 

I agree, and everything in Arabia matches the Book of Mormon account, but Nahom is the only place name. Bountiful is not an official place name, "we did come to the land which we called Bountiful" 1 Ne 17: 5

My point was that we have a Mahri place-name on the coast which means "Bountiful."  I am not sure what an "official place name" is, unless one in Arabic which appears in the Book of Mormon (or at least close to it).

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[cdowis]

Place names are not the only parallels == Pahoran, Paanchi and sheum.

 

While Lamanai is not a place name in the BOM, it is interesting that the BOM tells us that cities were named after their founders, and Lamanai is one of the very few authentic ancient city names that are known today.

 

Of course these are all just coincidences.

Edited October 4, 2014 by cdowis

[Robert F. Smith]

Place names are not the only parallels == Pahoran, Paanchi and sheum.

 

While Lamanai is not a place name in the BOM, it is interesting that the BOM tells us that cities were named after their founders, and Lamanai is one of the very few authentic ancient city names that are known today.

 

Of course these are all just coincidences.

Of course, as are the following suggestions:

 

Could New World Book of Mormon place-name Jerusalem be identified with Maya Yaxallum / Yaxa-llum “Green-Land, New-Land” (= Santiago-Atitlán, Guatemala, and environs), or with sunken Samabaj in that same Lake Atitlán, as suggested by John L. Sorenson.

 

Could the Book of Mormon personal and place name Josh be identified with Maya Yax, as in Yax K’uk’Mo’ “Green Quetzal,” the first ruler of Copán ca. 435 AD, as suggested by Kerry Hull.

 

Could Jaredite Kib be related to Yucatec Maya 6th month-name, Kib, as suggested by the late Bruce Warren.

 

Could Jaredite Kish be related to Chol & Yucatec Maya kix “spine, thorn; stingray spine; feather,” and Quiche Maya qix “feather.”  Cf. Also Mayan/Olmec Kish used in personal names, e.g., U-Kish-Kan, “He-of-the-Feathered-Serpent,” the early king, born March 8, 995 B.C., enthroned March 25, 967 B.C., and died in San Lorenzo Tenochtitlan (see Olmec Monument 47), as correlated by Bruce Warren.

 

Could the Jaredite and Nephite hill Shim be related to Quiché Maya xim “tie (52-year calendar round of days),” or with Maya ixim “ear of maize; kernals of maize,” as suggested by Bruce Warren; cf. also Bruce Warren’s comparison with the Yucatec Maya 16th day-name of the 260-day Calendar Round.