My Response To Jeremy Runnells Part 4 Book Of Mormon Witnesses

[Tacenda]

MF & Wiki, I'm so bad to derail, but thanks for sharing your experience's. I'm a sad human being because I no longer trust my feelings, keep thinking it's a feeling one can bring on themselves, made up in their minds, these spiritual manifistations.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Why would you conclude that the early visions were from God and the latter from Satan?  Strictly because you already PRESUME that anything "verifying" the church is of God and anything "against" the church is NOT from God.

 

I didn't say that, and WikiWonka said that they didn't experience visions after they left the church. 

 

 

We LDS really need to get better arguments on these matters.  As a former atheist, let me tell you, these arguments do not hold water.

 

 

It does not prove that they saw Moroni, but the argument helps. 

[Wiki Wonka]

I didn't say that, and WikiWonka said that they didn't experience visions after they left the church. 

 

 

 

It does not prove that they saw Moroni, but the argument helps. 

 

Actually, I said that I wasn't aware of any, but you never know what historical documents might turn up in the future.

 

Regarding David Whitmer, I don't have any problem with the idea that God did tell him to leave Far West. He had already been excommunicated, and he might have been in some danger. Better to preserve him and his future integrity as a witness - he was a more powerful witness of the Book of Mormon because he left the Church and never rejoined.

[Wiki Wonka]

MF & Wiki, I'm so bad to derail, but thanks for sharing your experience's. I'm a sad human being because I no longer trust my feelings, keep thinking it's a feeling one can bring on themselves, made up in their minds, these spiritual manifistations.

 

Some derails are worthwhile.

 

My continued belief is not just the result of my conversion, but rather, my conversion was the beginning of what I view as a lifelong string of "small miracles." I've had many experiences since then that confirm to me the reality of God, his power, and his ability to provide guidance. What I did so long ago was take a "leap of faith," but I was never disappointed after I took that leap.

[mfbukowski]

Some derails are worthwhile.

 

My continued belief is not just the result of my conversion, but rather, my conversion was the beginning of what I view as a lifelong string of "small miracles." I've had many experiences since then that confirm to me the reality of God, his power, and his ability to provide guidance. What I did so long ago was take a "leap of faith," but I was never disappointed after I took that leap.

Agreed.  One powerful experience helps, but it is a lifetime of small confirmations that God is guiding your life that produces certainty that he is there and watching over you.

[mfbukowski]

MF & Wiki, I'm so bad to derail, but thanks for sharing your experience's. I'm a sad human being because I no longer trust my feelings, keep thinking it's a feeling one can bring on themselves, made up in their minds, these spiritual manifistations.

You need to analyze that and see that it is a false dichotomy that you can never resolve. It will NEVER go away if you let it rule your life.  

 

In fact that DOUBT is "all in your mind" and THAT is what is causing the problem.

 

It's like worry- it is creating a problem that doesn't exist. 

 

What is important to understand, and I will do everything I can to help you realize (Pm's- phone calls- whatever) to realize that it is impossible to KNOW whether or not something of this kind is "just in your mind" or "real".

 

It is like doubting if you are looking at your computer screen right now.  That also is all in your mind.  Your love for your loved ones is all in your mind, your life priorities are all in your mind, your understanding of life and your place in the world is all in your mind.  Your values and memories and the way you analyze and think and know are all in your mind.

 

In fact everything you know and hold dear is all in your mind.  There is no reason to doubt any of it as being anything BUT being "all in your mind"

 

Just because there are optical illusions, and sometimes your perceptions of the world are mistaken, there is no reason to think that knowing "what is in your mind" is really NOT "in your mind".

 

God communicates "in your mind" so there is no reason to doubt any of it.  It is what it appears to be!   God is the spirit within you- he is the Ideal- the Best of all your desires inside of you.  For all practical purposes God lives inside of you- "in your mind".

 

Where else do you expect him to be?  The kingdom of heaven is within you.   Don't doubt that!  Where else would it be?? 

Edited September 15, 2014 by mfbukowski

[MormonFreeThinker]

How is this any "evidence" whatsoever?

 

Just an argument, I am not trying to totally prove that the witnesses did see Plates. 

If someone imagines something, and believes it, he will imagine that thing many times. 

[mfbukowski]

If someone imagines something, and believes it, he will imagine that thing many times. 

 

Like me imagining I am in my living room I suppose.

 

How would I know if I am really NOT in my living room right now?

[MormonFreeThinker]

Like me imagining I am in my living room I suppose.

 

How would I know if I am really NOT in my living room right now?

 

I agree, the witnesses did not imagine the plates or Moroni

[cdowis]

Yes, the Gilbert statement ("spiritual eyes") is independent of the "professor of religion" (the "pencil case") statement. Both statements can be found in Early Mormon Documents. (I wrote the FairMormon blog post that was linked, and I own the full five volume set of Early Mormon Documents - it is a very useful resource).

 

The Gilbert statement isn't "anti-Mormon", and I think that it is first-hand, but I would need to review the source to be sure. On the other hand, the "professor of religion" statement was third-hand and filtered through at least one (possibly two) hostile sources before we hear what Harris allegedly said.

 

I don't doubt that Martin Harris talked about seeing things with his "spiritual eyes." There's enough scriptural support for the term that I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have said it.

 

 

Unfortunately, this commonly held idea has ignored another possibility.

 

A hypothetical interview with Gilbert:

"Mr. Gilbert, did Harris actually use the phrase 'spiritual eyes'?"

"Well, you have to understand that I am recalling something that happened several decades ago.  I think he said something to the effect that he saw the whole thing in a vision.  'Spiritual eyes' is actually my wording.  I did not give an exact account of this interview, his exacting wording -- it was a long time ago, you have to understand, and this is the phrase others have used.  I didn't want to go into this whole vision thing." 

[Tacenda]

You forgot to mention that both Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris returned to the Church and were rebaptized.  Why would they do that if Mormonism were a fraud?  While outside the Church neither of them lied about their testimonies.

Maybe for the same reasons so many in the church do it now, because they want to believe or because their families want them to believe.

[Jeanne]

Maybe for the same reasons so many in the church do it now, because they want to believe or because their families want them to believe.

This is so true.  Many of my mormon friends are not in the church for themselves..but for members of their families.  It is a toss up to be true to oneself or unintentionally hurting others.  Life is easier if you don't believe and shut up about it.

[mfbukowski]

This is so true.  Many of my mormon friends are not in the church for themselves..but for members of their families.  It is a toss up to be true to oneself or unintentionally hurting others.  Life is easier if you don't believe and shut up about it.

Am amazing view.  I cannot imagine doing this.