Scott Lloyd Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) Before you attempt to triumphantly ride off, you might want to do some research. My use was appropriate, though the opinions pendants can differ.Your usage was incorrect. The fact that a lot of people make the same error does not make it any the less an error. And what is an "opinions pendant"? Edited September 24, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 2
Buckeye Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Before you attempt to triumphantly ride off, you might want to do some research. My use was appropriate, though the opinions pendants can differ. Don't take it personally tonie (not that you were). Scott has critiqued me and several others on this board for the same offense. It just begs the question as to why he cares so much.
Buckeye Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 In another thread Bob Crockett suggest that obvious damage to Children raised by same sex couples is that the adults in the home would not have callings. This argument strikes me as eerily similar to the argument against mixed-race marriages pre-1978; namely, that a non-cursed person choosing to marry a cursed person was doing damage by denying his/her posterity the blessings of the priesthood. There is a big difference between a harm that comes naturally from one's decision and a harm that comes because someone in authority chooses to inflict it. 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Your usage was incorrect. The fact that a lot of people make the same error does not make it any the less an error. And what is an "opinions pendant"?Is that not an appeal to the populace?
mfbukowski Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Your usage was incorrect. The fact that a lot of people make the same error does not make it any the less an error. And what is an "opinions pendant"?Incidentally, I beat you to the point on the use of "question begging"! But an opinions pendant? That's easy!! It's a thing you wear around your neck that tells you what to say, when your brain is disengaged (obviously neither were working in this case). You just don't know enough about technology - heck they've been around for nearly five minutes. I guess you didn't get the tweet. 2
mfbukowski Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Don't take it personally tonie (not that you were). Scott has critiqued me and several others on this board for the same offense. It just begs the question as to why he cares so much.yep heees jest stoopid. hooo kares anyway 1
ksfisher Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 But an opinions pendant? That's easy!! It's a thing you wear around your neck that tells you what to say, when your brain is disengaged (obviously neither were working in this case). Great product idea! A magic 8 ball that you can hang around your neck. It would save countless people from having to do all sorts of unnecessary thinking as well as being a great conversation piece. 2
cinepro Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Hmmm. Not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying there is no obvious damage like tonie suggested? His question may have only been clumsy and what he may have meant to ask was "If there is any obvious damage due to...., what is it?" But then again he shouldn't be suggesting that any damage is obvious if he can't see it, should he. It looks to me like Scott was just pointing out an error in usage (which I actually appreciated learning). The error didn't relate to the nature of the question; he was simply pointing out that the OP should have said "This raises the question: What is the obvious damage to children when parents do not have a calling?"
Scott Lloyd Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Don't take it personally tonie (not that you were). Scott has critiqued me and several others on this board for the same offense. It just begs the question as to why he cares so much.Oops! You used the phrase "begs the question" in an improper manner.
Scott Lloyd Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 It looks to me like Scott was just pointing out an error in usage (which I actually appreciated learning). The error didn't relate to the nature of the question; he was simply pointing out that the OP should have said "This raises the question: What is the obvious damage to children when parents do not have a calling?"Yes! Cinepro gets it. "Begging the question" is the same as, or verily similar to, circular reasoning. It doesn't mean "to raise the question" or "to prompt the question" or "to bring up the question." If that's what one intends to say, he/she should phrase it that way.
Scott Lloyd Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 I just Googled "opinions pendant" and came up with zip. I'm wondering if tonie meant to say "opinions pundit", which might make sense -- but I'm not sure even about that.
Calm Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 I have a charm bracelet from my youth that has a spinner on it with yes, no, maybe…but I never found it that useful because it never hit what I really wanted.
tonie Posted September 24, 2014 Author Posted September 24, 2014 Hmmm. Not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying there is no obvious damage like tonie suggested? His question may have only been clumsy and what he may have meant to ask was "If there is any obvious damage due to...., what is it?" But then again he shouldn't be suggesting that any damage is obvious if he can't see it, should he.Bob Crockett made the suggestion that a lack of callings is obvious damage to children. This thread is based on his quote.
tonie Posted September 24, 2014 Author Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) Yes! Cinepro gets it."Begging the question" is the same as, or verily similar to, circular reasoning.It doesn't mean "to raise the question" or "to prompt the question" or "to bring up the question." If that's what one intends to say, he/she should phrase it that way.mfbukowski as the first to raise the issue and offered references, would disagree with you. From mfbuukowski's reference:In modern vernacular usage, "to beg the question" is sometimes also used to mean "to raise the question" (as in "This begs the question of whether...") or "to dodge the question".andMany English speakers use "begs the question" to mean "raises the question", ...Again, you should not be so hasty to proclaim victory. Edited September 24, 2014 by tonie
Scott Lloyd Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) mfbukowski as the first to raise the issue and offered references, would disagree with you. From mfbuukowski's reference:In modern vernacular usage, "to beg the question" is sometimes also used to mean "to raise the question" (as in "This begs the question of whether...") or "to dodge the question".andMany English speakers use "begs the question" to mean "raises the question", ...Again, you should not be so hasty to proclaim victory.If a phrase initially means one thing and, through repeated erroneous usage and resulting corruption of the language, comes to mean something quite different, that's not a very sterling recommendation for continuing the substandard usage. And observations that "many speakers" do a thing is not an affirmation that it is correct or proper for them to do so. From the website I linked to earlier: While descriptivists and other such laissez-faire linguists are content to allow the misconception to fall into the vernacular, it cannot be denied that logic and philosophy stand to lose an important conceptual label should the meaning of BTQ become diluted to the point that we must constantly distinguish between the traditional usage and the erroneous "modern" usage. This is why we fight. From mfbukowski's last few posts and rep points, I got the distinct impression he agrees with me. Furthermore, if a substandard usage is distracting enough that at least two people on one thread will independently note it and comment on it, perhaps it's a good indication that it ought to be avoided rather than digging in one's heels and insisting that one's improper usage "was appropriate." And you still haven't explained "opinions pendant." Edited September 25, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Bob Crockett made the suggestion that a lack of callings is obvious damage to children. This thread is based on his quote.I don't think Ahab understood that you had used "begs the question" improperly. 1
Ahab Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 I don't think Ahab understood that you had used "begs the question" improperly.That plus I wasn't sure what your point was.If damage is supposedly obvious I don't think anyone would need to ask what the damage is, unless maybe they're just asking someone else to point out what it is. The idea of begging a question doesn't make any sense to me unless what is meant is that someone is actually begging for a question, and I wasn't, although I was curious about what was meant.
tonie Posted September 25, 2014 Author Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) That plus I wasn't sure what your point was.If damage is supposedly obvious I don't think anyone would need to ask what the damage is, unless maybe they're just asking someone else to point out what it is. The idea of begging a question doesn't make any sense to me unless what is meant is that someone is actually begging for a question, and I wasn't, although I was curious about what was meant.It is not obvious what the damage is. And we should take note that Bob has contributed little to clarify what the obvious damage to children is when their parents do not have callings.Though as Scott has so thoroughly made this post a his personal soap box, and Bob has only contributed about 7 words, I have no hope either will contribute constructively or on topic. In the end, I believe Bob's suggestion is misguided and unfounded. Edited September 25, 2014 by tonie
ksfisher Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 That plus I wasn't sure what your point was.If damage is supposedly obvious I don't think anyone would need to ask what the damage is, unless maybe they're just asking someone else to point out what it is. The idea of begging a question doesn't make any sense to me unless what is meant is that someone is actually begging for a question, and I wasn't, although I was curious about what was meant.I think all this question begging needs to stop. People need to learn to stand on their own two feet and get off the question begging dole. I shudder to think that I live in a day when honest men are forced to survive by begging questions on the corners of intersections like common mimes. 2
mfbukowski Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 I have a charm bracelet from my youth that has a spinner on it with yes, no, maybe…but I never found it that useful because it never hit what I really wanted.On the other hand, it forced you to actually make the decision!
mfbukowski Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 I think all this question begging needs to stop. People need to learn to stand on their own two feet and get off the question begging dole. I shudder to think that I live in a day when honest men are forced to survive by begging questions on the corners of intersections like common mimes. I know. I hate those signs that say "Will work for questions".
Calm Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 Isn't one of the reasons they try to give new members callings as soon as possible is that having a calling increases likelihood of staying active in the Church? 1
tonie Posted September 25, 2014 Author Posted September 25, 2014 Isn't one of the reasons they try to give new members callings as soon as possible is that having a calling increases likelihood of staying active in the Church? As I recall that was the reasoning given by the Prophet. Though, it does not address what the "obvious" damage to a child is when the parents do not have callings.How many worthy parents do not have callings? And are their children obviously damaged by the parents not having a calling?
ksfisher Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 I know. I hate those signs that say "Will work for questions".And all those out of work philosophers. 1
Yirgacheffe Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 Incidentally, learn what "begging a question" means. Your ignorance is showing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question http://afterdeadline.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/begging-the-question-again/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=1From Wiki "In modern vernacular usage, "to beg the question" is sometimes also used to mean "to raise the question" (as in "This begs the question of whether...") or "to dodge the question".[2] This usage is dismissed by many as mistaken.[3]" Reminds me of my dad and his annoyance over using the word gender instead of sex, as far as he was concerned the word gender applied to words not beings.
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