Towards A Better Understanding Of Same Sex Attraction And Sin

[JLHPROF]

 

Maybe you should follow the instruction of the Church and Prophets and consider whether your approach is in harmony with the teachings and instruction of the Church.

 

Here is how the Church teaches against homosexual behavior:

 

"[E]ngaging in homosexual behavior is in conflict with the “doctrinal principle, based on sacred scripture … that marriage between a man and a woman is essential to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.” - Same-Sex Attraction

 

"As a church, our doctrinal position is clear: any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, and we define marriage as between a man and a woman. However, that should never, ever be used as justification for unkindness. Jesus Christ, whom we follow, was clear in His condemnation of sexual immorality, but never cruel.  His interest was always to lift the individual, never to tear down." - Statement on Same-Sex attraction

 

Now to read how the Church responds to those who advocate same-sex marriage:

 

"[T]hose who promote same-sex marriage are entitled to civility,..."  - Church Instructs Leaders on Same-Sex Marriage

 

"Each Latter-day Saint family and individual should carefully consider whether their attitudes and actions toward others properly reflect Jesus Christ’s second great commandment - to love one another." - Statement on Same-Sex attraction

 

"Church apostle Elder Quentin L. Cook stated: “As a church, nobody should be more loving and compassionate. Let us be at the forefront in terms of expressing love, compassion and outreach. Let’s not have families exclude or be disrespectful of those who choose a different lifestyle as a result of their feelings about their own gender.” - Same-Sex Attraction

 

This makes me think of another quote:

 

In “Essay on Man,” Pope said, “Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, as to be hated needs but to be seen. Yet too oft, familiar with her face, we first endure, then pity, then embrace.”

 

It's been paraphrased many times, but the principle stands.

We are becoming extremely familiar with the face of the vice known as homosexuality.

 

First we may hate/dislike and have to simply endure its existence.

Then we begin to tolerate and even pity those poor people who have to live with this trial.

And unavoidably and eventually we will come to accept and embrace the vice as good.

 

Personally, I don't want to get to the "tolerance" stage, but I fear even within the Church many members are almost there.

But God clearly said that he "cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;"  (D&C 1:31/Alma 45:16)

If we want to be like God "tolerating" sin should not be where we set our positions.

[tonie]

This makes me think of another quote:

 

In “Essay on Man,” Pope said, “Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, as to be hated needs but to be seen. Yet too oft, familiar with her face, we first endure, then pity, then embrace.”

 

It's been paraphrased many times, but the principle stands.

We are becoming extremely familiar with the face of the vice known as homosexuality.

 

First we may hate/dislike and have to simply endure its existence.

Then we begin to tolerate and even pity those poor people who have to live with this trial.

And unavoidably and eventually we will come to accept and embrace the vice as good.

 

Personally, I don't want to get to the "tolerance" stage, but I fear even within the Church many members are almost there.

But God clearly said that he "cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;"  (D&C 1:31/Alma 45:16)

If we want to be like God "tolerating" sin should not be where we set our positions.

 

 

You condemn the Church not me.

 

You do realize, don't you, that each quote I provide is from the mormonnewsroom.org, which is "An Official WEBSITE of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of LATTER-DAY SAINTS".

[Daniel2]

CFR on the "gross sin".

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Brigham Young used the word "repugnant"---certainly the same thing as "gross.

[wenglund]

I hope you don't get this thread shut down, but maybe that's your intentions.

 

My intention is to point out repugnant comparisons, not to get the thread shut down. If the later happens, it will be because some people don't like being called on their repugnant comparisons. That is their problem, not mine.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[JLHPROF]

You condemn the Church not me.

 

You do realize, don't you, that each quote I provide is from the mormonnewsroom.org, which is "An Official WEBSITE of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of LATTER-DAY SAINTS".

 

Oh yes, I realize fully.  There are many things the Church and I don't agree on.  It's still God's church.

 

Also, the Church is required to be politically sensitive in its public opinions and has to choose its words very carefully to keep its position but not offend.  I am allowed to be much more direct.

But I think the Church and I actually have the same position on this one.  Homosexual relations are sinful and God does not tolerate sin, so neither should we.

Edited September 25, 2014 by JLHPROF

[tonie]

Oh yes, I realize fully.  There are many things the Church and I don't agree on.  It's still God's church.

 

Also, the Church is required to be politically sensitive in its public opinions and has to choose its words very carefully to keep its position but not offend.  I am allowed to be much more direct.

But I think the Church and I actually have the same position on this one.  Homosexual relations are sinful and God does not tolerate sin, so neither should we.

 

Are you saying you choose not to follow the instruction from the Church to be civil, love one another, be compassionate, lift up not tear down, and most of all follow Christ, when it comes to discussions on topics relating to same-sex marriage. 

Edited September 25, 2014 by tonie

[JLHPROF]

Are you saying you choose not to follow the instruction from the Church to be civil, love one another, be compassionate, lift up not tear down, and most of all follow Christ, when it comes to discussions on topics relating to same-sex marriage. 

 

No.  I am saying that we can do this (love our fellow man) and NOT in any way tolerate, accept, or allow for homosexual relations to be approved.

 

It is no different than Christ refusing to condemn/kill the adulterous woman but at the same time telling her to sin no more.  I am not for condemning homosexuals, but I am for telling them to sin no more.

 

Christ taught love of people, but he NEVER taught tolerance of sinful behavior.  Instead when faced with willful (non-repentant) sin he cast it out - John 2:15

 

So yes, I will follow Christ when it comes to embracing the sin - I will cast it out from me while doing everything I can to be compassionate to those afflicted with the sin.

[Rodeo]

Calling it "gross" seems like a fantastic way to open up a quality, mature dialogue with your children.

My wife uses the word "icky". Homosexual acts are sexual perversions.

[rockpond]

My wife uses the word "icky". Homosexual acts are sexual perversions.

 

So you're teaching your children that homosexuality is "gross" and "icky".  Do you think that if any of them do happen to be gay/lesbian that they would ever consider telling you?

[Rock_N_Roll]

My wife uses the word "icky". Homosexual acts are sexual perversions.

I’m confident that if my wife and I, had remained the type of parents you appear to be, instead  of visiting my gay, successful and happy son in California next month, I would be laying flowers on a grave.  You may want to reevaluate your parenting style. 

 

Or are you of the opinion that “None of my children will ever be gay, I won’t allow it”?  If so, speaking from experience…good luck with that. 

Edited September 25, 2014 by Rock_N_Roll

[Rodeo]

So you're teaching your children that homosexuality is "gross" and "icky".  Do you think that if any of them do happen to be gay/lesbian that they would ever consider telling you?

I also tell them that doing drugs is wrong and illegal. I cannot just tell them to find their own sexuality- whatever it may be and I will accept and love them for it. Not gonna happen! No, I teach them and help persuade them into finding the correct orientation. Hopefully, after all i have done, it helps them. I am a firm believer in gentle yet firm persuasion teaching correct principles.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So saying that homosexual acts are a perversion lead to death? Really. I think you guys read way more into people's words than what they wrote or intended.

[Rodeo]

I’m confident that if my wife and I, had remained the type of parents you appear to be, instead  of visiting my gay, successful and happy son in California next month, I would be laying flowers on a grave.  You may want to reevaluate your parenting style. 

 

Or are you of the opinion that “None of my children will ever be gay, I won’t allow it”?  If so, speaking from experience…good luck with that.

Well, you don't know me and how I raise my kids and I dont know you in how you raise your kids.

[Rodeo]

So? It was considered a gross sin to marry someone of a different skin color even in the Book of Mormon.

I will ask again- do you side with homosexuality or with heterosexuality?

[Rodeo]

Yes, if we all talked about homosexuality the way you do, I am sure that even more homosexuals would become less active in the church.  If that's what you want, please continue.  But I would rather have them worshiping in the pew next to me.

Just as long as they dont hold hands and hug each other in the church service I would want them in the pew next to me too.

[Daniel2]

I will ask again- do you side with homosexuality or with heterosexuality?

False dichotomy. One can be understanding, accepting, supportive, or at least tolerant towards individuals who are both straight AND gay.

It doesn't HAVE to be one at the exclusion of another.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Daniel2

[Tacenda]

I also tell them that doing drugs is wrong and illegal. I cannot just tell them to find their own sexuality- whatever it may be and I will accept and love them for it. Not gonna happen! No, I teach them and help persuade them into finding the correct orientation. Hopefully, after all i have done, it helps them. I am a firm believer in gentle yet firm persuasion teaching correct principles.

Did you watch the video I posted for you?  The parents in it did the same thing with the same mindset that you present here.  Check out what happened, and the hope they have that parents learn from their outcome of that particular persuasion. 

 

Rodeo, I really urge you to watch, they weren't too far from where you are now (the parents).  Maybe learn something else besides what you already know so far.  

[rockpond]

I also tell them that doing drugs is wrong and illegal. I cannot just tell them to find their own sexuality- whatever it may be and I will accept and love them for it. Not gonna happen! No, I teach them and help persuade them into finding the correct orientation. Hopefully, after all i have done, it helps them. I am a firm believer in gentle yet firm persuasion teaching correct principles.

 

I don't see any gentleness in your approach to preaching about homosexuality.

[cinepro]

I also tell them that doing drugs is wrong and illegal. I cannot just tell them to find their own sexuality- whatever it may be and I will accept and love them for it. Not gonna happen! No, I teach them and help persuade them into finding the correct orientation. Hopefully, after all i have done, it helps them. I am a firm believer in gentle yet firm persuasion teaching correct principles.

 

That sounds like a great plan, since I'm pretty sure most gay people over the centuries have probably had parents (and friends) who didn't encourage them into a heterosexual lifestyle.  It's just been one long history of parents telling their kids "be what you want to be".   

[Rock_N_Roll]

Just as long as they dont hold hands and hug each other in the church service I would want them in the pew next to me too.

So, as long as a person’s sin (holding hands and hugging are not sins, by the way), is not visible, you are Ok with them in the pew next to you?  So, - a man who abuses his wife is ok to sit by you because you can’t “see” his sin. But a man who smells of tobacco and/or has a visible pack of cigarettes in his pocket would not be welcome at your side? 

[Rodeo]

So, as long as a person’s sin (holding hands and hugging are not sins, by the way), is not visible, you are Ok with them in the pew next to you?  So, - a man who abuses his wife is ok to sit by you because you can’t “see” his sin. But a man who smells of tobacco and/or has a visible pack of cigarettes in his pocket would not be welcome at your side?

You dont get it. A smoker is welcome, even with his visible pack. I used to bring my cigarettes to church and go outside inbetweenclasses to smoke. The difference is a smoker isnt smoking inside the building during church service. The church considers holding hands between two gay people as homosexual behavior and as such is not welcomed in church service meetings.

[Rodeo]

Did you watch the video I posted for you?  The parents in it did the same thing with the same mindset that you present here.  Check out what happened, and the hope they have that parents learn from their outcome of that particular persuasion. 

 

Rodeo, I really urge you to watch, they weren't too far from where you are now (the parents).  Maybe learn something else besides what you already know so far.

I watched the entire video. Its a sad story. Once again though, we do not know the whole story. We see a brief glance at what the couple believes from their perspective only. There is too much we dont know about to say one way or another. I genuinely am interested in what happens, what really happens,for someone to go from having SSA, and why, to being dead 6 years later.

[cinepro]

The church considers holding hands between two gay people as homosexual behavior and as such is not welcomed in church service meetings.

 

Now you're back to saying it's the emotions and the feelings that are the sin, not the actual behavior. 

 

I understand that everything you are saying feels right to you, and that you probably believe it is in line with current Church policies and doctrine, but you really need to take a step back and think critically about your arguments, as well as really studying the Church's current teachings on the subject.

[stemelbow]

Now you're back to saying it's the emotions and the feelings that are the sin, not the actual behavior. 

 

I understand that everything you are saying feels right to you, and that you probably believe it is in line with current Church policies and doctrine, but you really need to take a step back and think critically about your arguments, as well as really studying the Church's current teachings on the subject.

Are you suggesting the Church's teachings on this vital subject has changed? Or has the rhetoric changed?

[cinepro]

Are you suggesting the Church's teachings on this vital subject has changed? Or has the rhetoric changed?

 

That's a good question.  Depending on how you define "Church's teachings", I would definitely say that the words of the leaders have changed over the past few decades.  Whether this indicates any actual shift in "policy" or "doctrine", I don't know.