Towards A Better Understanding Of Same Sex Attraction And Sin

[VideoGameJunkie]

I thought everyone had gaydar.

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, and BY also believed in counting his wives by the dozen. To suggest that Heavenly Mother created billions (if not trillions...) of spirit children the same way as earthly children is laughable. Something had to be different.

And I suspect that a gay couple could be satisfied spending eternity creating worlds without end.

 

To eternal exalted beings what is trillions of children?

[Tacenda]

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/09/mitch-mayne-mormon-and-gay/  Mitch Mayne: Mormon and Gay

 

Just started listening, and an interesting comment Mitch makes answers a lot of questions concerning choosing this lifestyle vs. having it choose them.  The comment was that when Mitch was in 1st grade, instead of being excited to go to someone's home and play he would run home to watch "Star Trek", because he said had a terrible crush on Captain Kirk.  He wanted Captain Kirk to be in his life, someone to give a Valentine to type thing.  He'd always known that that was what his orientation was. 

 

Also, when he told his mom at 16 that he was gay, the first few words out of her mouth were that it would have been better if he'd been born dead than gay.  Mitch realized that those weren't the words of a woman that hated her gay son but the words of a Mormon mom who was terrified because she had no idea how to parent a gay son. And his dad saying to him that it was Mitch's biggest failure out of all of his failures.  And these are some of the reasons for the podcast DB mentions, to show the quick responses and judgment that come from people. 

 

I hope everyone here and elsewhere, listens to this podcast, it's a keeper!  (Thanks DBMormon, your pod bean is full of great messages!)

Edited September 29, 2014 by Tacenda

[rockpond]

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/09/mitch-mayne-mormon-and-gay/  Mitch Mayne: Mormon and Gay

 

Just started listening, and an interesting comment Mitch makes answers a lot of questions concerning choosing this lifestyle vs. having it choose them.  The comment was that when Mitch was in 1st grade, instead of being excited to go to someone's home and play he would run home to watch "Star Trek", because he said had a terrible crush on Captain Kirk.  He wanted Captain Kirk to be in his life, someone to give a Valentine to type thing.  He'd always known that that was what his orientation was. 

 

Also, when he told his mom at 16 that he was gay, the first few words out of her mouth were that it would have been better if he'd been born dead than gay.  Mitch realized that those weren't the words of a woman that hated her gay son but the words of a Mormon mom who was terrified because she had no idea how to parent a gay son. And his dad saying to him that it was Mitch's biggest failure out of all of his failures.  And these are some of the reasons for the podcast DB mentions, to show the quick responses and judgment that come from people. 

 

I hope everyone here and elsewhere, listens to this podcast, it's a keeper!  (Thanks DBMormon, your pod bean is full of great messages!)

 

Thanks, Tacenda.  I'll download it and listen as well.  Bill Reel does great work.

[Tacenda]

Thanks, Tacenda.  I'll download it and listen as well.  Bill Reel does great work.

 

Great rockpond!  In the pod cast he mentions the below, I hunted it down, and found it was on his blog.  http://mitchmayne.blogspot.com/2010/11/you-know-who-i-am.html very good read for sure.....

 

"You know who I am. You have sat next to me in meetings. You have greeted me with warmth and enthusiasm when I’ve come to church. You have heard my voice in prayer.

 

Yet, I wonder how many of you would treat me less kindly if you knew the truth of who I really am. I wonder if you would judge me—however mildly, however inadvertently, however silently.

 

Being honest about who I am has seldom led to a positive outcome. In my home, my father told me that my being gay was his ultimate fear, and my ultimate failure. My mother told me it would have been better for her if I’d been born dead than gay. Growing up, I was scorned on the playground, and ridiculed and bullied in the classroom. I have been fired from jobs because I am gay. At times, even though I had done nothing that would have disqualified me, I have been told by Church leaders that I am unworthy of ever taking the Sacrament. I have been told that I will never work with the youth of the Church. I have been told in meetings that it is because of people like me that the AIDS pandemic has come upon the Earth—that my sins are bringing punishment upon the wicked and the sinless alike.

 

It has not been an easy path, nor a path I would wish for anyone. But it is my path. And it has made me who I am today. I am, in fact, grateful for being gay. It has given me levels of compassion, understanding, patience, and forgiveness that I would never have developed otherwise.

 

Many Sundays, I look out at you across the congregation: young families, with your brood of wonderful and rambunctious children; mid-life couples with your fledgling children, offering them support as they leave the nest; husbands and wives who’ve shared this earthly path together for years, with your memories of lifelong love and companionship. And I know I will never have those things. If I am to live by Church doctrine, I am relegated to a life of solitude, and my sentence is to grow old and leave this world alone.

 

Those are painful realizations for me. Yet when the Sacrament is passed, when I bow my head and speak my sorrow to my Heavenly Father, something grand happens. Almost without exception, a feeling washes over me from deep inside my soul. A tender, warm, yet powerful feeling—and an unmistakable voice that tells me, “You belong here.” Not when I have it all figured out, not if I could become straight, not when I know all the answers—but today, right here, right now. With you. That, my dear brothers and sisters, is why I am Mormon. Because I belong here.

 

Being a child of my Heavenly Father was not a choice. Being gay is not a choice. Both things simply are. Both things are intertwined into the DNA of my soul so deeply that you could not extricate one from the other without destroying who I am. They are, in fact, who I am.

 

I am a gay Latter Day Saint.

 

I don’t want pity. To pity me is to make me a victim. I want understanding. To understand me, is to love me as an equal.

 

I don’t want tolerance. If I am tolerated, I am disliked or feared in some way. I want respect as a fellow striving child of God—an equal in His eyes.

 

I don’t want acceptance. To accept me is to graciously grant me the favor of your company. To accept me is to marginalize me with the assumption that I am less than you. I am your peer. I am neither above you nor below you.

 

I don’t want judgment. My path may be different than yours, but it is a plan built for me by a power greater than any of us. To judge me is to judge the designer of that path.

 

I don’t want to be labeled as “afflicted” or “suffering” or “struggling.” I do not have an illness that requires my soul be mended. I want to be recognized, like you, as a whole person, just as my Heavenly Father made me. I have suffered no affliction by His hand; I have, however, suffered affliction at the hands of others, including my brothers and sisters in the gospel.

 

I do not want to be viewed as a mistake. My path on this Earth was prescribed uniquely for me, just as yours was for you. It was designed to give me the experiences I need to grow as a child of my Heavenly Father. To view me as a mistake is to view Him as a maker of mistakes.

 

On a cosmetic level, we are very different, you and I. You have spouses, or the opportunity for spouses, I do not. You have children, or the opportunity for children, I do not. You are attracted to those of the opposite gender, I am attracted to those of my same gender.

 

What I want most of all is for you to look past the superficial and the cosmetic. I want you to look at what makes us the same: the simple fact that we are all children of our Heavenly Father, and we are striving day to day to understand how to best do His will, and how to return to Him. It is that simple sameness, brothers and sisters, that weighs more than all the differences in His universe.

 

You know who I am. You have sat next to me in meetings. You have greeted me with warmth and enthusiasm when I’ve come to Church. You have heard my voice in prayer. And now, you have heard my truth. "

[Rob Osborn]

I think we should be careful that we do not demonize the church in the process of "understanding".

[Rock_N_Roll]

I think we should be careful that we do not demonize the church in the process of "understanding".

 

Who's doing that?

[Rob Osborn]

Who's doing that?

Just saying that it appears many, on both sides, make attacks on the mormon church for the reason of rejection and make mormons and the church to be viewed as hostile. Thats not right. I see many mormon gay groups popping up that have made negative attacks pointed at mormons and the church.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[rockpond]

Just saying that it appears many, on both sides, make attacks on the mormon church for the reason of rejection and make mormons and the church to be viewed as hostile. Thats not right. I see many mormon gay groups popping up that have made negative attacks pointed at mormons and the church.

The Church chose to act in a hostile way when it fought to remove the legal right of gay people to marry. I'm sorry if that hurts but it is still true.

[Daniel2]

Just saying that it appears many, on both sides, make attacks on the mormon church for the reason of rejection and make mormons and the church to be viewed as hostile.

Rockpond is correct: uncomfortable as it may be, the LDS church's actions were and have continued to be hostile to recognizing equal civil marriage rights for gay people.

Thats not right.

It certainly is accurate, so I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying the church was not antagonistic or hostile nor proactively worked to remove and/or block equal marriage rights for same-sex couples...?

I see many mormon gay groups popping up that have made negative attacks pointed at mormons and the church.

Can you share examples of these "many gay Mormon groups" that "have made negative attacks"?

Edited September 30, 2014 by Daniel2

[Rob Osborn]

The Church chose to act in a hostile way when it fought to remove the legal right of gay people to marry. I'm sorry if that hurts but it is still true.

They chose to act in a righteous manner. Only the proponents of the gay community see it as a hostile move.

[rockpond]

They chose to act in a righteous manner. Only the proponents of the gay community see it as a hostile move.

 

The church's actions against gay marriage fit the definition of hostile (opposed in feeling, action, or character; antagonistic).

 

Whether or not they are righteous is a separate issue.

[JLHPROF]

The church's actions against gay marriage fit the definition of hostile (opposed in feeling, action, or character; antagonistic).

 

Whether or not they are righteous is a separate issue.

 

I certainly hope they are hostile.  We should always be hostile - opposed in feeling, action or character, antagonistic - towards sin.  We must not give it even the least degree of allowance.

 

Hopefully however, we are much kinder to those committing the sins and allow them to repent.

[rockpond]

Hopefully however, we are much kinder to those committing the sins and allow them to repent.

 

Hopefully...

 

Here's an interesting letter on that topic that was written by a BYU professor and published in BYU's Daily Universe earlier this month:  http://universe.byu.edu/2014/09/02/byu-challenge-helping-everyone-feel-loved/

[Rob Osborn]

Rockpond is correct: uncomfortable as it may be, the LDS church's actions were and have continued to be hostile to recognizing equal civil marriage rights for gay people.

It certainly is accurate, so I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying the church was not antagonistic or hostile nor proactively worked to remove and/or block equal marriage rights for same-sex couples...?

Can you share examples of these "many gay Mormon groups" that "have made negative attacks"?

Here are a few who have made statements that run counter to the church and as such reflect negativity on the church.

http://www.mormonsformarriageequality.org/

http://www.mormonsformarriage.com/

http://www.ldsfamilyfellowship.org/

[Rob Osborn]

The church's actions against gay marriage fit the definition of hostile (opposed in feeling, action, or character; antagonistic).

 

Whether or not they are righteous is a separate issue.

Opposing same sex marriage and defending why is not hostility. This is a false claim you make. Please give a CFR for where the church has showed true hostility.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Opposing same sex marriage and defending why is not hostility. This is a false claim you make. Please give a CFR for where the church has showed true hostility.

There is no CFR available. For the church was not hostile. That is just rockpond looking through his goggles. For some one to be hostile more is required than mere opposition.

[rockpond]

Opposing same sex marriage and defending why is not hostility. This is a false claim you make. Please give a CFR for where the church has showed true hostility.

 

Actions supporting Prop 8 fit the definition of hostile.  They fought to remove the legal right to marriage for homosexual couples in California.  I understand that you feel that was the moral thing to do but it doesn't mean that it wasn't hostile.

 

Are you suggesting that the church is NOT "opposed in feeling, action, and character" to gay marriage?  Do you feel the church is NOT antagonistic toward gay marriage?

[rockpond]

Here are a few who have made statements that run counter to the church and as such reflect negativity on the church.

http://www.mormonsformarriageequality.org/

http://www.mormonsformarriage.com/

http://www.ldsfamilyfellowship.org/wi

 

So disagreeing with the church is a "negative attack" and "demonizing"?  (Those were your quotes from earlier.)

 

I agree with you that having dissension among different groups of members in the church does reflective negatively on the church as a whole.  If that is what you are saying, than I agree.  It is very unfortunate.

[Daniel2]

I certainly hope they are hostile.  We should always be hostile - opposed in feeling, action or character, antagonistic - towards sin.  We must not give it even the least degree of allowance.

 

Hopefully however, we are much kinder to those committing the sins and allow them to repent.

 

It is nice to see someone be as candidly honest as you are in your first paragraph.  Kudos for taking full ownership of your Faith's beliefs.

 

As for your second paragraph, I would hope that we are kind to everyone else on our planet, regardless of how they're sinning differently from the sins that we're comitting, ourselves.

[Daniel2]

Here are a few who have made statements that run counter to the church and as such reflect negativity on the church.

http://www.mormonsformarriageequality.org/

http://www.mormonsformarriage.com/

http://www.ldsfamilyfellowship.org/

Hmmm. OK.

I wouldn't normally characterize "three" as "many." And upon reading the first two websites, it becomes clear one was the predecessor of the other and they are actually the same organization.

I also wouldn't characterize any of the three groups you listed as "gay." They all appear to be comprized mostly of straight Latter-day Saints who support gay inclusion.

I don't see anything on any of those three groups as "negatively attacking" the church. They all seem to be attempting to be positive and build bridges between church-related and gay-related individuals and communities. Nothing I read is a "negative attack."

From what I see, there are three heterosexual LDS groups attempting to build bridges between LDS and gay communities.

Funny how different people can percieve the same actions entirely differently.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Daniel2

[Rob Osborn]

Hmmm. OK.

I wouldn't normally characterize "three" as "many." And upon reading the first two websites, it becomes clear one was the predecessor of the other and they are actually the same organization.

I also wouldn't characterize any of the three groups you listed as "gay." They all appear to be comprized mostly of straight Latter-day Saints who support gay inclusion.

I don't see anything on any of those three groups as "negatively attacking" the church. They all seem to be attempting to be positive and build bridges between church-related and gay-related individuals and communities. Nothing I read is a "negative attack."

From what I see, there are three heterosexual LDS groups attempting to build bridges between LDS and gay communities.

Funny how different people can percieve the same actions entirely differently.

Its no surprise though when you consider that the "different people" (you and me) are on polar opposite sides of the debate. I side with the church in saying same sex marriage is wrong. You are on the other side wanting same sex marriage and justify it as godly. So, not really funny, just reality of the corrupt world we live in.

[Rob Osborn]

So disagreeing with the church is a "negative attack" and "demonizing"?  (Those were your quotes from earlier.)

 

I agree with you that having dissension among different groups of members in the church does reflective negatively on the church as a whole.  If that is what you are saying, than I agree.  It is very unfortunate.

The main picture i get from gays on these sites is that they were treated unfairly which led them to depression and suicidal thoughts and pretty much blamed the mormon church for it. Thats a reflection of negativity onto the church. In the end all it does is demonize the church and its leaders.

[rockpond]

The main picture i get from gays on these sites is that they were treated unfairly which led them to depression and suicidal thoughts and pretty much blamed the mormon church for it. Thats a reflection of negativity onto the church. In the end all it does is demonize the church and its leaders.

 

Is it demonizing the church and its leaders to share their experiences?  It seems that you prefer they just keep silent.  Would that further our understanding of homosexuality?

 

Did you read the letter I posted above? Here's the link again:  http://universe.byu.edu/2014/09/02/byu-challenge-helping-everyone-feel-loved/

 

And here's another one that I posted a number of pages back but might be of interest to you:  http://www.lds-mormon.com/hardy.shtml

 

Both of these reflect the experiences of active, committed church members like you and I.  If they reflect negativity on the church, as you claim those other three sites do as well, then maybe we should work to identify "why" rather than suggest that they just hide the reality in which they live.  Care to join me in a discussion on that?

Edited September 30, 2014 by rockpond

[Rob Osborn]

Is it demonizing the church and its leaders to share their experiences?  It seems that you prefer they just keep silent.  Would that further our understanding of homosexuality?

 

Did you read the letter I posted above? Here's the link again:  http://universe.byu.edu/2014/09/02/byu-challenge-helping-everyone-feel-loved/

 

And here's another one that I posted a number of pages back but might be of interest to you:  http://www.lds-mormon.com/hardy.shtml

 

Both of these reflect the experiences of active, committed church members like you and I.  If they reflect negativity on the church, as you claim those other three sites do as well, then maybe we should work to identify "why" rather than suggest that they just hide the reality in which they live.  Care to join me in a discussion on that?

Look, the problem I see it is that being gay is becoming more acceptable and as such, there are many gays who want justification for their lifestyles and want church support to the extent of redefining marriage. We can all hear sob stories about how wrong such and such was treated. Youknow what? You are going to find that in any and every culture. The gay LDS community needs to stop being prejudice against the LDS church and instead embrace the teachings from the prophet.