Question Of Why There Doesn't Seem To Be Any New Revelation

[Senator]

There are other prophecies where in it is stated that this people(LDS) will not abide sound doctrine.  I fear we may be at this point.

 

I must say, you have been uncharacteristicly nebulous in this thread.

 

You start off in your OP lamenting the absence of "new and glorious" revelation in the church, laying the blame at the feet of an unbelieving church membership.

 

Then you come around and agree with Hamba and others, that there is still (new) revelation in the church at the local levels, just not the glorious kind, and that perhaps that is how it should be.

 

Now you're back at the point fearing that the church is at the point of not abiding sound doctrince.

 

I can't make out what you are really trying to say in this thread.

 

Are you just down in the dumps right now?

Edited September 3, 2014 by Senator

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes and no.  I am curious what the last revelation at GC was.  I don't doubt that the leaders are inspired in the running of things, but when was the last time ANYTHING big or small, major or minor, of a doctrinal nature was newly revealed from heaven?

 

When was the last time a new teaching was given by a GA at Conference that wasn't already an established teaching of the Church?  And I don't mean some administrative tweak or announcing a new temple or calling.  I mean, when was the last time a General Authority taught a new doctrine or added new information to an existing doctrine?

 

Take the Proclamation on Family, often held up as a revelatory document.  There was nothing in there that wasn't already a fully established teaching of the Church.  I don't think God has given the Church a single speck of new doctrine in decades.

Off the top of my head was the age change for missionaries. The smaller temples being built was another one.

[JLHPROF]

Off the top of my head was the age change for missionaries. The smaller temples being built was another one.

 

Administrative, not doctrinal.  This may have been inspired but there was nothing revealed that couldn't have been decided by a committee.

 

I asked for ANY new doctrinal teaching.  ANY newly revealed truth.  Anything other than a change in the day to day operations of the Church.

Basically, any speck of information revealed from heaven that we didn't already know.  Not a change in how we do things, but some new information.

Edited September 3, 2014 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

See above post # 99.  I do not think the fault lies wholly with the GA's.

 

Completely agree.

[ERayR]

I must say, you have been uncharacteristicly nebulous in this thread.

 

You start off in your OP lamenting the absence of "new and glorious" revelation in the church, laying the blame at the feet of an unbelieving church membership.

 

Then you come around and agree with Hamba and others, that there is still (new) revelation in the church at the local levels, just not the glorious kind, and that perhaps that is how it should be.

 

Now you're back at the point fearing that the church is at the point of not abiding sound doctrince.

 

I can't make out what you are really trying to say in this thread.

 

Are you just down in the dumps right now?

 

I have probably been nebulous because I see several things happening and haven't quite got it sorted in my mind.  What I see is a core of very dedicated Leaders and members and a lot who are not and fit BY description Post #99

.  This thread has given me a lot to think about and analyze. 

 

We live in a very unstable times and I think about it a lot. 

 

Edited to add: I am helping raise four of my grandchildren and need a few more years to get them on a stable path and I feel my health problems may not allow me the time.  I can see the good and the bad and see it mingling. It gives me great fear but also great hope.

 

As I said above I have gotten a lot to think about so will probably back out of this thread but will leave it open for those who still want to play in the sandbox.

Edited September 4, 2014 by ERayR

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Administrative, not doctrinal.  This may have been inspired but there was nothing revealed that couldn't have been decided by a committee.

 

I asked for ANY new doctrinal teaching.  ANY newly revealed truth.  Anything other than a change in the day to day operations of the Church.

Basically, any speck of information revealed from heaven that we didn't already know.  Not a change in how we do things, but some new information.

Still is revelation. Moving the goal posts much? They also clarify past doctrine. Such as that the roles of men and women that basically that same sex marriage is never going to happen.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[stemelbow]

According to Heber C. Kimball. 

  After a while the Gentiles will gather to this place by the thousands and Salt Lake City will be classified among the wicked cities of the world.  A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the result will be financial bondage.

  Persecution comes next, and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit.  Many will apostatize, and others will stand still, not knowing what to do.  "Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people." (Prophecy Key to the Future -pg 26; Duane Crowther) a copy of this prophecy is available in BYU library

 

Mosiah Hancock recorded a dream of which Brigham Young related to him. 

He conversed freely on the situation of the Saints in the mountains, and said that he dreaded the time when the Saints would become popular with the world; for he had seen the sorrow, in a dream, or in dreams, this people clothed in the fashions of Babylon and drinking in the spirit of Babylon until one could hardly tell a Saint from a black-leg.  And he felt like shouting "To your tents, Oh Israel!" because it was the only thing that could keep this people pure . . . Many of this people for the sake of riches and popularity, will sell themselves for that which will canker their souls and lead them down to misery and despair.  It would be better for them to dwell in wigwams among the Indians than to dwell with the gentiles and miss the glories which God wishes them to obtain.  (Prophecy Key to the Future -pg 26-27; Duane Crowther)  A typewritten copy of Mosiah Hancock's diary is available in the BYU library

 

There are other prophecies where in it is stated that this people(LDS) will not abide sound doctrine.  I fear we may be at this point.

Seeking after riches seems to be a major problem leading to this foreseen destruction. Heber mentions seeking after "speculation and extravagance" while Brigham eschews the desire for riches and popularity. Perhaps as they view it our currently condition would be seen as many seeking after "speculation and extravagance" and riches and popularity. How would they if seeing our day be able to distinguish a member from a non member? And from their perspectives every member, not just average ones, could certainly be seen as seeking after riches, living lives of speculation and extravagance.

Perhaps we're far more los than we know or want to admit.

[stemelbow]

I must say, you have been uncharacteristicly nebulous in this thread.

 

You start off in your OP lamenting the absence of "new and glorious" revelation in the church, laying the blame at the feet of an unbelieving church membership.

 

Then you come around and agree with Hamba and others, that there is still (new) revelation in the church at the local levels, just not the glorious kind, and that perhaps that is how it should be.

 

Now you're back at the point fearing that the church is at the point of not abiding sound doctrince.

 

I can't make out what you are really trying to say in this thread.

 

Are you just down in the dumps right now?

Taking into account the confusing messages that have come to us over the years, taking into account the struggle we face with faith, reason/ reality/hope I'm not sure any of us are immune from jumping around seeing it from different perspectives on topics such as this. We're a little ok and we're a little stuck or lost. As I've read it I see some good honesty from his flip flopping. I do the same.

[JLHPROF]

Still is revelation. Moving the goal posts much? They also clarify past doctrine. Such as that the roles of men and women that basically that same sex marriage is never going to happen.

 

I am not disagreeing that it's revelation of a sort.  Any inspired act can be considered to be done by revelation.

My point (and the point of the OP) once again is that God hasn't revealed ANY new doctrinal information in decades.

 

Teaching what we already know is NOT revelation.  Nothing is revealed.

Changing an administrative function of the Church may be inspired which we sometimes call revelation and we consider to be instructed by God, but nothing new is taught.

 

I don't know if the main "restoration" part is complete and it will just be tweaks and adjustments till the Millennium now.  But I do know that there hasn't been ANY new doctrine in decades.  It's like God doesn't want to give us any new information and that leads many to believe it's because we aren't living right to receive it.

Edited September 4, 2014 by JLHPROF

[MiserereNobis]

From a non-member point of view, the issue is this:  Mormons very very often refer to modern-day prophets and modern-day revelation as being essential and unique to the LDS church.  Mormons don't mean it as an individual receiving inspiration, but as the prophet receiving God's word.  Yet, when I look closely, I just don't see it happening now.  Yes, I see it back in the days of Joseph and Brigham and others, but not now.  So, on the one hand, you have people bearing testimony of modern-day prophets, but on the other hand people say (like on this board) that it is now up to the individual to figure it out and get their own revelation.

 

Which one is it?

 

In another thread, I pointed out that the way the LDS church functions now as concerns its prophet is very similar to the way the Catholic Church functions as concerns her Pope.  The practicalities of modern-day revelation in the LDS church are just like the practicalities of what the Pope and Ecumenical Councils do in the Catholic Church.  In other words, the claim that the LDS church is only Christian church to receive "revelation" does not seem to hold up, as I cannot see a difference between mine and yours.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Teaching what we already know is NOT revelation.  Nothing is revealed.

Changing an administrative function of the Church may be inspired which we sometimes call revelation and we consider to be instructed by God, but nothing new is taught.

 

 

You seem to be saying the same thing Erayer and myself have said.  There is new revelation it is not the colossal deep canonized revelation, it is generally smaller . And if you listen to GC and learn nothing new then I would submit that you are not really listening.

[MiserereNobis]

You seem to be saying the same thing Erayer and myself have said.  There is new revelation it is not the colossal deep canonized revelation, it is generally smaller . And if you listen to GC and learn nothing new then I would submit that you are not really listening.

 

But this type of revelation/inspiration is not what comes across when Mormons tell non-Mormons that the LDS church receives revelation...

[stemelbow]

From a non-member point of view, the issue is this:  Mormons very very often refer to modern-day prophets and modern-day revelation as being essential and unique to the LDS church.  Mormons don't mean it as an individual receiving inspiration, but as the prophet receiving God's word.  Yet, when I look closely, I just don't see it happening now.  Yes, I see it back in the days of Joseph and Brigham and others, but not now.  So, on the one hand, you have people bearing testimony of modern-day prophets, but on the other hand people say (like on this board) that it is now up to the individual to figure it out and get their own revelation.

 

Which one is it?

 

In another thread, I pointed out that the way the LDS church functions now as concerns its prophet is very similar to the way the Catholic Church functions as concerns her Pope.  The practicalities of modern-day revelation in the LDS church are just like the practicalities of what the Pope and Ecumenical Councils do in the Catholic Church.  In other words, the claim that the LDS church is only Christian church to receive "revelation" does not seem to hold up, as I cannot see a difference between mine and yours.

I think that's kinda what I've gotten out of this as well. I went into it thinking that way already though. I think we're all part of the body of Christ. But I do hold out that the LDS Church is that part of the body that holds the keys to the necessary ordinances. Individuals from all groups can hear the revelations from God, and I'd wager, many do.

[mormonnewb]

You seem to be saying the same thing Erayer and myself have said.  There is new revelation it is not the colossal deep canonized revelation, it is generally smaller . And if you listen to GC and learn nothing new then I would submit that you are not really listening.

 

But this type of revelation/inspiration is not what comes across when Mormons tell non-Mormons that the LDS church receives revelation...

 

You're BOTH right.  This might simply be an issue of different definitions of the term "revelation."

 

For many Mormons, the term doesn't necessarily imply that any NEW is being revealed.  Revelation can also include a clarion reminder about truths already known (but perhaps, not acted upon).

 

However, for many non-Mormons, the term revelations implies some new (and preferably, earth-shaking) truth being revealed.  For example, John the Baptist announcing Jesus as the Christ would be considered "revelation."  On the other hand, reminding members of the importance of home teaching would not be considered to be "revelatory."  It might be recognized as "valuable advice" but not capital R "Revelation."

[Coreyb]

Still is revelation. Moving the goal posts much? They also clarify past doctrine. Such as that the roles of men and women that basically that same sex marriage is never going to happen.

Did president Hinckley or president Monson claim those changes to be revelations, or did others claim it for them?

[Stone holm]

From a non-member point of view, the issue is this:  Mormons very very often refer to modern-day prophets and modern-day revelation as being essential and unique to the LDS church.  Mormons don't mean it as an individual receiving inspiration, but as the prophet receiving God's word.  Yet, when I look closely, I just don't see it happening now.  Yes, I see it back in the days of Joseph and Brigham and others, but not now.  So, on the one hand, you have people bearing testimony of modern-day prophets, but on the other hand people say (like on this board) that it is now up to the individual to figure it out and get their own revelation.

 

Which one is it?

 

In another thread, I pointed out that the way the LDS church functions now as concerns its prophet is very similar to the way the Catholic Church functions as concerns her Pope.  The practicalities of modern-day revelation in the LDS church are just like the practicalities of what the Pope and Ecumenical Councils do in the Catholic Church.  In other words, the claim that the LDS church is only Christian church to receive "revelation" does not seem to hold up, as I cannot see a difference between mine and yours.

Correct as Churches mature they develop bureaucracies and "revelation" more or less ceases, then the Church is frequently cast off and a new revelatory Church starts up. We have been promised that won't happen to us, and faithful Mormons and myself cling to that promise in the hopes we are just experiencing a temporary drought, while the leadership blames the membership for the lack of rain and busies itself with morality politics.

[Tiki]

No new Revelation. lol! Ye of little faith.

Sep 2014 First Presidency Message

" ' I repeat what the First Presidency declared a few years ago:

“Latter-day Saints have been counseled for many years to prepare for adversity by having a little money set aside. Doing so adds immeasurably to security and well-being. Every family has a responsibility to provide for its own needs to the extent possible.' "

----

And maybe you've forgotten Pres. Hinckley's warning of putting our finances in order and staying out of debt, because of an impending economic conditions.

----

Or Pres. Hinckley's statement in October General Conference 1997 that the Nations of the Earth may need to be shaken, 4 years before 9/11.

"Doors now closed to the preaching of the gospel will be opened. The Almighty, if necessary, may have to shake the nations to humble them and cause them to listen to the servants of the living God. Whatever is needed will come to pass."

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1997/10/look-to-the-future?lang=eng

----

[ERayR]

In going back over my thread I decided I will have to back track on my OP.  While doctrinal clarifications and changes and new insights into the morass of our present world is leading, two things stuck out in my mind. 1 - Old Testament prophets some times have centuries between them.  2 - I am already having trouble with what I have. 3 - is personal but great revelations can be personal.  The morning my wife passed I was sitting in our room with her as she went.  She had not been gone more than five minutes ( I had not yet left the room) and there was a knock on our door and my home teacher was there.  His first words were; "I don't know why but I am supposed to be here".  I have come to realize over the past few days that, that was a great revelation.  For me. 

[MiserereNobis]

No new Revelation. lol! Ye of little faith.

Sep 2014 First Presidency Message

" ' I repeat what the First Presidency declared a few years ago:

“Latter-day Saints have been counseled for many years to prepare for adversity by having a little money set aside. Doing so adds immeasurably to security and well-being. Every family has a responsibility to provide for its own needs to the extent possible.' "

----

And maybe you've forgotten Pres. Hinckley's warning of putting our finances in order and staying out of debt, because of an impending economic conditions.

----

Or Pres. Hinckley's statement in October General Conference 1997 that the Nations of the Earth may need to be shaken, 4 years before 9/11.

"Doors now closed to the preaching of the gospel will be opened. The Almighty, if necessary, may have to shake the nations to humble them and cause them to listen to the servants of the living God. Whatever is needed will come to pass."

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1997/10/look-to-the-future?lang=eng

----

 

So... the modern-day revelation of the LDS church is that we should save money in case of economic troubles?  And that something might happen and then 4 years later something does?

 

I'm sorry, that just doesn't work for me as "revelation."

[cinepro]

So... the modern-day revelation of the LDS church is that we should save money in case of economic troubles?  And that something might happen and then 4 years later something does?

 

I'm sorry, that just doesn't work for me as "revelation."

 

I've got to admit that it's fascinating to get an outsider's viewpoint (and member of another religion, no less).  Frankly, I'm a little surprised that you're not as impressed with our recent revelations as other Mormons are.

 

I mean, come on.  President Hinckley said that the nations would need "to be shaken" in order to open up the world for missionary work, and then - bam!  Four years later 9/11 happens, and because of it tons of places that were once closed to the gospel opened up. 

[mfbukowski]

So... the modern-day revelation of the LDS church is that we should save money in case of economic troubles?  And that something might happen and then 4 years later something does?

 

I'm sorry, that just doesn't work for me as "revelation."

Far superior, of course are the three secrets of Fatima, providing clear and useful information for mankind.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Secrets_of_F%C3%A1tima

[Bikeemikey]

Revelation comes when it is needed...surly we all believed that one day the Church would have all it needs to function. It says a lot when we have Prophets who don't feel the need to fix something that is not broke, just so others will believe they are Prophets.

The point of a prophet is not to create a high functioning corporate bureaucracy, nor is a prophets role fulfilled when their corporate structure is self-sufficient in the absence if additional divine communication.

[Stone holm]

The point of a prophet is not to create a high functioning corporate bureaucracy, nor is a prophets role fulfilled when their corporate structure is self-sufficient in the absence if additional divine communication.

Really, you mean it isn't a business?

[ERayR]

Looks like it has run its course and is deteriorating.