Will There Be Difference In The Celestial Kingdom

[Calm]

I don't understand, the more I think about it, why so many are opposed to the idea of sameness.

Because it doesn't make sense.  Why does God create a world full of variety and people full of variety if the ultimate end is sameness?

 

My belief is that we all become perfected versions of ourselves, not perfected versions of God.  We did not start out in intelligence or personality (which I believe in some aspects are eternal such as gender) so perfection of those individual qualities in no way implies identical perfection.

 

Is being a redhead more perfect than being a blonde?  Is having a regal nose more perfect than having a pert one?  Is being an introvert better than being an extrovert?  Is being a night person or one who likes mountains better than being a day person or one who likes the city?

[Calm]

Personal revelation? If not could you provide a link?

In Abraham IIRC about the levels of intelligence...

[Calm]

Fair enough. But, I don't think Exalted Sameness would be boring. I don't pretend to comprehend what that would entail, but I think (notice I didn't say know) that it is a fundamental part of being an eternal being.

So no male or female, just human...

 

If there are males and females, is gender meaningless in far as how we think and desire?  Why have gender than?

[BlueDreams]

I stand by what I said...even if few agree with me. People keep bringing up unique talents and abilities. I get that. But that is a mortal condition. In the next life we will all eventually be perfect and perfectly talented in all things like God is now. We will be perfectly loving, perfectly knowledgeable, perfectly compassionate, etc. We will be the same. As perfect individuals we will react the same perfect way to the same situation. That makes a lot of people uncomfortable because, well, as humans we have been taught (and in some ways brainwashed) to value our "individuality" above all else.

 

What is it that God wants us to give Him above all else? Our agency. To let His will become our will. Yes, here in mortality some of us our more personable and will be able to do things others can't and so our way to do His work may be different than someone who is less personable but has amazing computer skills and can do genealogy like a boss. But in the next life we will all be perfectly personable and perfectly gifted in all aspects.

 

So...yeah. Enjoy your beloved uniqueness that you value so much while you can.

 

 

Personally my problem is the underlying assumption of what it means to be perfected. Perfect, by what you've mentioned is assumed to lead to 1 ultimate experience and state of being. And I can get that. After all the scriptures do point to oneness even as Christ and the Father are one. As well as other scriptures that Janderich pointed out that could also lead to that conclusion. But I also think it's selective and doesn't take into account of what God sees as perfect. Rain pointed out that there is already on divine distinguishing of male and female that seems to be essential based on LDS theology. But there's other writings that lend credence that perfect does not mean removing all pertinent distinctions. For example in Abr it notes a pre-earth difference in intelligence. These are God's order and creation. And the Creation in it's un-fallen state was also diverse. Plus there's verses like DC 130:2 that indicates there will be similar sociality (whatever that means) in the life to come, but with eternal glory. I haven't perused much, due to a serious case of jet-lag, but I could find plenty of scriptural basis for why perfect =/= sameness based on the definitions used in scripture. 

 

My personal sentiments lean heavily toward diversity in the CK. I've seen diverse thought and people not work. I mean really just not get that far at all and even be a stumbling block to progress or healing or anything good really. But when diversity works it doesn't just work, there's something absolutely divine and beautiful about it. Like watching a Zion in its first breaths. I can't help but feel that such a pertinent vehicle to perfection wouldn't also continue to play a role in maintaining perfection as well. There's something needed in having all things move as one in their differences. And I can't imagine a God who is the author of many forms of diversity in all the forms that Creation has taken up to this fallen point would not continue having it.  

 

I also don't think that all forms of diversity will remain. As some have been removed (such as unnecessary, human divisions like political parties, national borders, etc)

 

With luv,

BD 

[Mystery Meat]

Because it doesn't make sense.  Why does God create a world full of variety and people full of variety if the ultimate end is sameness?

 

My belief is that we all become perfected versions of ourselves, not perfected versions of God.  We did not start out in intelligence or personality (which I believe in some aspects are eternal such as gender) so perfection of those individual qualities in no way implies identical perfection.

 

Is being a redhead more perfect than being a blonde?  Is having a regal nose more perfect than having a pert one?  Is being an introvert better than being an extrovert?  Is being a night person or one who likes mountains better than being a day person or one who likes the city?

 

Easy. We each brought weaknesses with us from the pre mortal realm. We each brought strengths. In time (long after we die) we will be perfected in all things. Bishops are given access to all spiritual gifts to aide in their callings (or so I have been taught). I believe exalted beings will have all spiritual gifts in perfection, will have all knowledge, and will be alike in personality, perception, and talents.

[Mystery Meat]

So no male or female, just human...

 

If there are males and females, is gender meaningless in far as how we think and desire?  Why have gender than?

 

No. Where have I ever said there won't be gender. There will be gender. Gender is eternal. But that doesn't mean eternal companions won't be One (in the true sense of the word).

[Mystery Meat]

My personal sentiments lean heavily toward diversity in the CK. I've seen diverse thought and people not work. I mean really just not get that far at all and even be a stumbling block to progress or healing or anything good really. But when diversity works it doesn't just work, there's something absolutely divine and beautiful about it. Like watching a Zion in its first breaths. I can't help but feel that such a pertinent vehicle to perfection wouldn't also continue to play a role in maintaining perfection as well. There's something needed in having all things move as one in their differences. And I can't imagine a God who is the author of many forms of diversity in all the forms that Creation has taken up to this fallen point would not continue having it.  

 

I also don't think that all forms of diversity will remain. As some have been removed (such as unnecessary, human divisions like political parties, national borders, etc)

 

With luv,

BD 

 

But see when diversity works in this life, it because people with a wide range of spiritual gifts come together to solve problems. What if everyone has every spiritual gift? What if everyone is perfect in all things, like God? The diversity that God created in this life is important for this precisely because not one of us possesses all of the talents and spiritual gifts, perfectly, we need to be divine. When we do have such gifts, such perfection, how can we be different? 

 

Different does not equal exciting, just as divine oneness does not equal boring.

[Mystery Meat]

I will add, I think boredom is a mortal condition. There will be no boredom in the hereafter.

[Ahab]

Personally my problem is the underlying assumption of what it means to be perfected. Perfect, by what you've mentioned is assumed to lead to 1 ultimate experience and state of being. And I can get that. After all the scriptures do point to oneness even as Christ and the Father are one. As well as other scriptures that Janderich pointed out that could also lead to that conclusion. But I also think it's selective and doesn't take into account of what God sees as perfect. Rain pointed out that there is already on divine distinguishing of male and female that seems to be essential based on LDS theology. But there's other writings that lend credence that perfect does not mean removing all pertinent distinctions. For example in Abr it notes a pre-earth difference in intelligence. These are God's order and creation. And the Creation in it's un-fallen state was also diverse. Plus there's verses like DC 130:2 that indicates there will be similar sociality (whatever that means) in the life to come, but with eternal glory. I haven't perused much, due to a serious case of jet-lag, but I could find plenty of scriptural basis for why perfect =/= sameness based on the definitions used in scripture.

My personal sentiments lean heavily toward diversity in the CK. I've seen diverse thought and people not work. I mean really just not get that far at all and even be a stumbling block to progress or healing or anything good really. But when diversity works it doesn't just work, there's something absolutely divine and beautiful about it. Like watching a Zion in its first breaths. I can't help but feel that such a pertinent vehicle to perfection wouldn't also continue to play a role in maintaining perfection as well. There's something needed in having all things move as one in their differences. And I can't imagine a God who is the author of many forms of diversity in all the forms that Creation has taken up to this fallen point would not continue having it.

I also don't think that all forms of diversity will remain. As some have been removed (such as unnecessary, human divisions like political parties, national borders, etc)

With luv,

BD

The idea that any person with celestial glory will think or act or do anything "better" in some way than someone else with the same degree of celestial glory just doesn't seem right to me, so why would there be any difference if there isn't a better or best way to be? Why a difference? Can you give an example maybe of some way any 2 or more people with the same glory would be different while both or all being the best way to be?

I know that most of my challenges will involve becoming as good as someone else is in some way, like becoming as compassionate as the most compassionate person is, and how funny, and how intelligent in all ways, and how skilled in each way, as someone else is, but I also know that as long as I keep working at it to become the best in all ways that I will eventually make it to being the best in all ways that any person can be. And when that day comes I will know I have finally become as great as our Lord and our Father are and can be with no way to be any better than that.

[The Nehor]

The idea that any person with celestial glory will think or act or do anything "better" in some way than someone else with the same degree of celestial glory just doesn't seem right to me, so why would there be any difference if there isn't a better or best way to be? Why a difference? Can you give an example maybe of some way any 2 or more people with the same glory would be different while both or all being the best way to be?

I know that most of my challenges will involve becoming as good as someone else is in some way, like becoming as compassionate as the most compassionate person is, and how funny, and how intelligent in all ways, and how skilled in each way, as someone else is, but I also know that as long as I keep working at it to become the best in all ways that I will eventually make it to being the best in all ways that any person can be. And when that day comes I will know I have finally become as great as our Lord and our Father are and can be with no way to be any better than that.

 

I don't accept that there is one best solution and approach to every situation. In my experience virtuous responses to situations are manifold while evil is dull and predictable. If I was the God of this creation it would be very different though neither better nor worse. 

[The Nehor]

I will add, I think boredom is a mortal condition. There will be no boredom in the hereafter.

 

I think there will. It will just be in hell.

 

No. Where have I ever said there won't be gender. There will be gender. Gender is eternal. But that doesn't mean eternal companions won't be One (in the true sense of the word).

 

It does make a marriage choice meaningless. If you've married one woman who is exalted you've married them all because they are all identical. What is the point on an eternal family. My father is identical to me and to every other father. My child is interchangeable with every other child so what is the point of being sealed to them?

[BlueDreams]

 I believe exalted beings will have all spiritual gifts in perfection, will have all knowledge, and will be alike in personality, perception, and talents.

 

This was my first thought: God, I hope not....particularly in personality. I would hate to have everyone be basically like me (trust me, I'm the best mode ). It wouldn't be boring, it would be annoying. And I certainly don't see it as necessary.  

 

But see when diversity works in this life, it because people with a wide range of spiritual gifts come together to solve problems. What if everyone has every spiritual gift? What if everyone is perfect in all things, like God? The diversity that God created in this life is important for this precisely because not one of us possesses all of the talents and spiritual gifts, perfectly, we need to be divine. When we do have such gifts, such perfection, how can we be different? 

 

Why is having the exact same spiritual gifts necessary? I haven't seen that in scripture at all. To me to have the same capacity to access the power of God does not mean the we all have to utilize and work it the same way, just that we utilize whatever is given for the same overarching purpose. The basic concept of Gender in the church indicates to me that we can be OK with not having an immediate capability of doing the exact same thing, but that what we do together is more pertinent.  

 

Different does not equal exciting, just as divine oneness does not equal boring.

 

 

I never mentioned that different equals exciting. In fact I pointed out that different can also be damaging or tedious. Nor did I say divine oneness is boring. I simply disagree with what you've defined as divine oneness meaning absolute sameness (except in superfluous detail, like hairstyle....unless of course you think we'll have pretty similar looks as well). 

 

With luv,

BD

[BlueDreams]

The pineapple, who is the smartest and most delicious of fruits.

 

It was definitely the mango. But then God put them in the blender and smoothed out their silly squabbling with some ice and a little yogurt. And it was definitely good.

 

(note to self: have smoothie today) 

[BlueDreams]

The idea that any person with celestial glory will think or act or do anything "better" in some way than someone else with the same degree of celestial glory just doesn't seem right to me, so why would there be any difference if there isn't a better or best way to be? Why a difference? Can you give an example maybe of some way any 2 or more people with the same glory would be different while both or all being the best way to be?

 

I'm pretty sure I've at least alluded to the one of male/female. But While I'm at it, I'll throw in HF/HM, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in there as well. What is given indicates that all of them have played a different role, perfectly. Also, as Nehor mentioned, I don't think there's a singular best....or in the case of exaltation, a singular expression of perfection. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Ahab]

I don't accept that there is one best solution and approach to every situation.

I do. Don't you think it would be best for both of us, and all other people, to accept whatever the truth is regardless of who may need to change his or her mind on that and every other issue?

In my experience virtuous responses to situations are manifold while evil is dull and predictable.

I agree that there are usually if not always many virtuous responses to a situation but I still maintain that there is a perfect and best response to each situation and the best and all of the most intelligent and perfect people would respond in that same way. And your disagreement doesn't change that.

If I was the God of this creation it would be very different though neither better nor worse.

Like how? I don't see how that would be possible.

[Mystery Meat]

This was my first thought: God, I hope not....particularly in personality. I would hate to have everyone be basically like me (trust me, I'm the best mode ). It wouldn't be boring, it would be annoying. And I certainly don't see it as necessary.  

 

 

Why is having the exact same spiritual gifts necessary? I haven't seen that in scripture at all. To me to have the same capacity to access the power of God does not mean the we all have to utilize and work it the same way, just that we utilize whatever is given for the same overarching purpose. The basic concept of Gender in the church indicates to me that we can be OK with not having an immediate capability of doing the exact same thing, but that what we do together is more pertinent.  

 

 

I never mentioned that different equals exciting. In fact I pointed out that different can also be damaging or tedious. Nor did I say divine oneness is boring. I simply disagree with what you've defined as divine oneness meaning absolute sameness (except in superfluous detail, like hairstyle....unless of course you think we'll have pretty similar looks as well). 

 

With luv,

BD

 

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, and quite frankly I am okay with that as this particular opinion of mine falls somewhere between  my belief that there will be an eternal supply of McDonalds French Fries in the CK and my firm testimony that Star Wars is based on actual events, on the scale of important parts of my testimony.

 

Having said that I believe that each glorified and exalted person must necessarily possess all spiritual gifts in perfection. And so, yes, I suppose there is only one manifestation of perfection. The more perfected we become, the more we resemble that one manifestation. Perhaps, there is a different manifestation for men and women. But I think our societal and cultural norms make that a hard pill for us to swallow, as we tend to value our little quirks.

[Ahab]

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree..

Something 2 or more people with the same degree of celestial glory would never say to each other, or even think, because it would not apply

Having said that I believe that each glorified and exalted person must necessarily possess all spiritual gifts in perfection. And so, yes, I suppose there is only one manifestation of perfection. The more perfected we become, the more we resemble that one manifestation. Perhaps, there is a different manifestation for men and women. But I think our societal and cultural norms make that a hard pill for us to swallow, as we tend to value our little quirks.

I'm glad to see we agree on this point.

[The Nehor]

I do. Don't you think it would be best for both of us, and all other people, to accept whatever the truth is regardless of who may need to change his or her mind on that and every other issue?

 

Your patronizing question has nothing to do with your statement. All it does is imply that I am being obstinate. It is not an argument.

 

I agree that there are usually if not always many virtuous responses to a situation but I still maintain that there is a perfect and best response to each situation and the best and all of the most intelligent and perfect people would respond in that same way. And your disagreement doesn't change that.

 

Nor does your maintaining your statement make it so. And round and round we go.

 

Like how? I don't see how that would be possible.

 

Would the world be less good if the sky was orange? Or if we added a few more planets to the solar system? Or if animals were slightly different? Real unicorns maybe? More waterfalls? If the composition of the planet made the deserts more reddish? If Cthulhu lived at the bottom of the Pacific? Things that diversify and are beautiful. If this world is the perfect world for testing and there is only one perfect world then a multiplicity of worlds is meaningless. They would be the same.

 

 

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, and quite frankly I am okay with that as this particular opinion of mine falls somewhere between  my belief that there will be an eternal supply of McDonalds French Fries in the CK and my firm testimony that Star Wars is based on actual events, on the scale of important parts of my testimony.

 

Having said that I believe that each glorified and exalted person must necessarily possess all spiritual gifts in perfection. And so, yes, I suppose there is only one manifestation of perfection. The more perfected we become, the more we resemble that one manifestation. Perhaps, there is a different manifestation for men and women. But I think our societal and cultural norms make that a hard pill for us to swallow, as we tend to value our little quirks.

 

Then there is no need for more then one (or maybe two?) exalted beings. They will do the exact same thing and being omnipotent they could have one perform the task just as easily as a million. I don't value my quirks that highly. Most of them will fade in time; many have faded in this life and I doubt many will survive into the eternities. They are petty differences. I value me. And so does God for some reason. It is horrifying to imagine that my destiny might as well be a pantheistic becoming one with the Universe because I really don't matter even as a god. I am infinitely replaceable. I think Jesus also made a bit of a bad bargain. I wouldn't endure what He endured to enable infinite unnecessary redundancy. I think I would have a grudge against the Father if this were the case for creating me in the first place. I mean what is the point?

 

I also do not find it scriptural and in conformity with anything I know of the scriptures or the heavens.

[Calm]

I'm pretty sure I've at least alluded to the one of male/female. But While I'm at it, I'll throw in HF/HM, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in there as well. What is given indicates that all of them have played a different role, perfectly. Also, as Nehor mentioned, I don't think there's a singular best....or in the case of exaltation, a singular expression of perfection. 

 

With luv,

BD

Also this comment:

 

Why is having the exact same spiritual gifts necessary? I haven't seen that in scripture at all. 

 

Given that we will be living in a community and have access to all others in that community, there is no need for us to have all the spiritual gifts as we can appeal to each other and communicate fully whenever necessary.

[Calm]

alike in personality, perception, and talents.

So what is the perfect personality?  Is it someone who is quiet and dignified or someone who is bubbly with excitement?  Is it someone who is slow and methodical or someone who is quick and decisive?

Edited July 29, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

No. Where have I ever said there won't be gender. There will be gender. Gender is eternal. But that doesn't mean eternal companions won't be One (in the true sense of the word).

And what is the true sense of the word if they aren't the same identical being which wipes out the difference in gender and makes them into someone hermaphroditic? 

 

If there is a different gender between individuals that has any significant meaning, there is at least one fundamental difference.

[Ahab]

So what is the perfect personality? Is it someone who is quiet and dignified or someone who is bubbly with excitement? Is it someone who is slow and methodical or someone who is quick and decisive?

Different situations call for different moods.

[Ahab]

Given that we will be living in a community and have access to all others in that community, there is no need for us to have all the spiritual gifts as we can appeal to each other and communicate fully whenever necessary.

Think of how much better it would be for all of us to be able to do everything, individually, though, without you having to call for someone with some skill in doing something you weren't able to do?

Men will still be men and need women for those things it takes both a man and woman to do, like having children, but imagine a woman being able and equally skilled in doing anything else a man can do.

For a while I'll need someone to teach me how to do something the best way it can be done but I'm going to be learning from that person while trying to be equally skilled and equally intelligent as anyone else so that at some point I will be able to do anything any man can do as well as any man.

[Stargazer]

I don't understand, the more I think about it, why so many are opposed to the idea of sameness.

 

It wasn't until this thread that I realized just how little diversity there is between the Father and the Son, and thus between the Father and me, once I have inherited all that the Father hath.  

 

But I don't find this ominous at all!  I will still be me, after all.  I will just have been Added Upon, to cite Nephi Anderson.

[Stargazer]

And this is probably why we don't describe heaven much. Your desire or expectation for sameness seems perverse to me (and perhaps you see my understanding as perverse too). 

 

Heaven is in a way the secret key to everyone's soul and the unfulfilled desires we cope with in this life. They either vary in reality or our perception of what we lack varies so we seem to want different things. I do know that heaven is designed to fulfill our desires. I do not know whether that means heaven is the same for all and we are really looking for the same thing or we want different things and our place in heaven is like a unique key that only fits us.

 

Actually, when one considers that in that sameness one may become Exalted and thus in effect become a Universe existing in oneself, with all that that implies as to eternal progeny, and an infinite diversity of creation, oh my.  There is no sameness in that.

 

But we see through a glass, darkly.  Even our most expansive view in mortality is like looking through a straw in comparison.  Don't let your mortal limitations confine your horizons, The Nehor.