name Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Good morning all! On a few of the threads that I have been following, there have been some posts referencing "testimonies." I would imagine (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that at the very core, a LDS testimony is the personal declaration concerning the truths of Mormonism. To know that the LDS church is true - is a testimony - yes? Here is where I get a little confused (this confusion is directly related to various contributions I have read on a few threads. An example of one is the suggestion that a certain and single individual has destroyed/shattered the testimonies of countless Mormons.) Given what a testimony is (again, correct me if I have this wrong), how is this even a possibility? How can engaging other people/things (OW, Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, Mormon Stories, Guy at the gas station, cashier at Home Depot, reading material, etc, etc) destroy a testimony? Doesn't this really speak much more about the testimony itself - thus, has very little (nothing?) to do with any of these outside sources? Your thoughts, perspectives, opinions and experiences are humbly requested.
Ahab Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) The word testimony can refer to several things, but in Mormon culture it usually refers to getting a testimony from God (our Father) through the power of the Holy Spirit to convey what our Father is telling us, personally, is true.An example from scripture is when Peter got a testimony from our Father telling him Jesus is the Christ, and his son.edited to add more: The word testimony also refers to what any person will tell you when sharing their personal perspective, like when a person bears witness of something in a court of law. What you were referring to in your example was an example of a person changing their testimony, for whatever reason, like maybe because they accepted someone else's testimony.For example, if you had asked me 30 years ago if the Book of Mormon is true, I would have said something like "I don't know" because at that time I had never even heard of the book, whereas now I would say something like "Yes" because I know it is true. Thus my testimony has changed. Edited July 13, 2014 by Ahab
CV75 Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Good morning all!Your thoughts, perspectives, opinions and experiences are humbly requested. I think destroying a testimony is the opposite of doing this: D&C 50: 22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together. 23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness. 24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day. 25 And again, verily I say unto you, and I say it that you may know the truth, that you may chase darkness from among you; D&C 84: 106 And if any man among you be strong in the Spirit, let him take with him him that is weak, that he may be edified in all meekness, that he may become strong also. D&C 43 8 And now, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that when ye are assembled together ye shall instruct and edify each other, that ye may know how to act and direct my church, how to act upon the points of my law and commandments, which I have given. D&C 88: 122 Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege… 125 And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace. 126 Pray always, that ye may not faint, until I come. Behold, and lo, I will come quickly, and receive you unto myself. Amen. It does take two to tango, and we all have a responsibility to keep and strengthen our own testimony and that of others (and they to us). 1
name Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 Hi Ahab! Thanks for the reply! but in Mormon culture it usually refers to getting a testimony from God (our Father) through the power of the Holy Spirit to convey what our Father is telling us, personally, something which is true. Yes, undertood. Like the Book of Mormon is true. The LDS church is true. Joseph Smith was/is a prophet. (Right?) So, if God, through the power of the Holy Spirit has conveyed these things to you, how could something/anything destroy this? Doesn't it speak much more to and about the testimony itself?
name Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) Hello CV75! Thank you as well for the reply. It does take two to tango, and we all have a responsibility to keep and strengthen our own testimony and that of others (and they to us). Serious questions (my intent is not to offend, challenge and/or question what you have contributed) An individual's testimony is impacted/influenced by others? If someone doesn't have one (or as you say: "we all have a responsibility to strengthen our own testimony and that of others") does that mean that you are helping others to create one? Coercing it from others? Influencing others to have one? I hope those questions did not come across as offensive, I am just trying to get a better perspective - and get this perspective directly from the source. Edited July 13, 2014 by name
name Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) As I am thinking about all of this, I have another question. If someone used to have a "strong testimony" - AKA - they knew that the LDS was true, etc, etc. and now they no longer believe (left the LDS fold) what they once knew - were certain of: What explanations are there for this? What does it say (if anything) about the testimony they once had? What does it suggest (if anything) about the person who has completely "lost" their once strong testimony? Edited July 13, 2014 by name
Ahab Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 So, if God, through the power of the Holy Spirit has conveyed these things to you, how could something/anything destroy this?Hello name. I hope what I added to my post helped to explain that to you. Basically we're talking about anything that could change a testimony from what it was to something else. Doesn't it speak much more to and about the testimony itself?Yes. It speaks to the fact that a testimony can change from something to something else.The only exception to that, that I can think of, is that God doesn't change his mind or ever say anything that contradicts any of his testimony.
name Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) Yes. It speaks to the fact that a testimony can change from something to something else. So would it be fair to say that a testimony is a belief? Edited July 13, 2014 by name
UtahTexan Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 I am not sure a person can destroy someone else's testimony. As far as materials....I suppose it is possible...but only to the extent that a person had a real testimony. Let me explain. Let us say a person is taught by the missionaries. They study with the missionaries and gain a testimony thru what they believe is the LDS Church and the teachings. Then, as the person studies, they discover things they were never taught and somethings that they were taught that are not true. So, the person loses their testimony. But do they really? It seems the person simply discovered that they never really had a REAL testimony, but rather a testimony of what the person THOUGHT was the LDS Church. Does that make sense? It seems that this is what folks like John Dehlin are saying.
Ahab Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 So would it be fair to say that a testimony is a belief?More like a statement of their beliefs, as well as their current level of knowledge.Say for example that someone says the Book of Mormon is not true, or that they don't know if it is. Whatever they say is a reflection of what they know, as far as they know what they know, and even if they are wrong it is still their testimony as far as they know what they know.And just like in a court room when someone gives their testimony about something, some people share what they saw or heard while some other people could be giving a false testimony. 2
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) As I am thinking about all of this, I have another question.If someone used to have a "strong testimony" - AKA - they knew that the LDS was true, etc, etc. and now they no longer believe (left the LDS fold) what they once knew - were certain of:What explanations are there for this?What does it say (if anything) about the testimony they once had?What does it suggest (if anything) about the person who has completely "lost" their once strong testimony? When we bear testimony we are bearing witness of something. When we receive a testimony we are accepting of something.That is what a testimony is, in a church or in a courtroom. And it has two parts. When we bear testimony of the Church or the Book of Mormon we are standing as a witness that it is true AND that we received our own witness of this knowledge from God by his spirit. Those are the two parts of the testimony. As far as losing a testimony, basically it happens because we change our mind and stop bearing witness and lose the spirit of God to such an extent that we no longer recognize God's witness to us either. Any one of a million things can cause a person to change their mind. Those that keep their testimonies and continue to bear witness are those that stay close enough to God that they can still receive his truth from him. Edited July 13, 2014 by JLHPROF 1
CV75 Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Hello CV75!Thank you as well for the reply. Serious questions (my intent is not to offend, challenge and/or question what you have contributed)An individual's testimony is impacted/influenced by others?If someone doesn't have one (or as you say: "we all have a responsibility to strengthen our own testimony and that of others") does that mean that you are helping others to create one? Coercing it from others? Influencing others to have one?I hope those questions did not come across as offensive, I am just trying to get a better perspective - and get this perspective directly from the source.Yes, an individual’s testimony is impacted / influenced by others (faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God) to the extent that he allows it. Helping and influencing him for or against are not examples of coercion, but of our conscience and the Spirit guiding in one direction and the fallen nature and the adversary guiding in another. How are you suggesting that a testimony can be coerced in either direction?
thesometimesaint Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Hi Ahab!Thanks for the reply! Yes, undertood.Like the Book of Mormon is true. The LDS church is true. Joseph Smith was/is a prophet. (Right?)So, if God, through the power of the Holy Spirit has conveyed these things to you, how could something/anything destroy this?Doesn't it speak much more to and about the testimony itself? SEE Parable of Sower.Matthew 13: 3-9Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.” 1
CV75 Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 As I am thinking about all of this, I have another question.If someone used to have a "strong testimony" - AKA - they knew that the LDS was true, etc, etc. and now they no longer believe (left the LDS fold) what they once knew - were certain of:What explanations are there for this?What does it say (if anything) about the testimony they once had?What does it suggest (if anything) about the person who has completely "lost" their once strong testimony?What explanations are there for this? It is like Mosiah 4:29-30. “…I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may [lose your testimony]; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them. But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must [lose your testimony]. And now, O man, remember, and perish not.” What does it say (if anything) about the testimony they once had? Nothing, only that he didn’t keep it.What does it suggest (if anything) about the person who has completely "lost" their once strong testimony? Nothing, only that he didn’t keep his testimony. I think that to lose your testimony doesn’t necessarily mean that you forget you had one, or what it was about, but that it just doesn’t carry the same meaning anymore through lack of observance and attending instead to competing thoughts, words, deeds, commandments, objects of belief, teachings (doctrine), etc. 1
CV75 Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 So would it be fair to say that a testimony is a belief?Here is a good starting point for a discussion of what a testimony is: https://www.lds.org/topics/testimony?lang=eng
CV75 Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 But do they really? It seems the person simply discovered that they never really had a REAL testimony, but rather a testimony of what the person THOUGHT was the LDS Church.Even with the Gift of the Holy Ghost, people can confound a mortal testimony of facts with a spiritual testimony of the Lord’s voice and will (D& 97:1), which is the same as confounding conclusions of the intellect with the witness of the Spirit. So a spiritual (real) testimony can be supplanted by that which isn’t spiritual or real (per Alma 32:35), and vice-versa. Because of this, someone's apostasy can influence another to follow suit. Apostasy is often identified when it becomes obvious that a person goes beyond his personal conclusions and questions resulting in others doing the same. The same with righteousness: someone's tetsimony can influence another to follow suit; it is often identified when it becomes obvious that a person goes beyond his personal conclusions and questions and shares the Gospel so that others might enjoy the same.
UtahTexan Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Even with the Gift of the Holy Ghost, people can confound a mortal testimony of facts with a spiritual testimony of the Lord’s voice and will (D& 97:1), which is the same as confounding conclusions of the intellect with the witness of the Spirit. So a spiritual (real) testimony can be supplanted by that which isn’t spiritual or real (per Alma 32:35), and vice-versa. Because of this, someone's apostasy can influence another to follow suit. Apostasy is often identified when it becomes obvious that a person goes beyond his personal conclusions and questions resulting in others doing the same. The same with righteousness: someone's tetsimony can influence another to follow suit; it is often identified when it becomes obvious that a person goes beyond his personal conclusions and questions and shares the Gospel so that others might enjoy the same. I see what you are saying. But my issue is more with people who believe they have testimonies...and they actually do...with what they believe...but then they find out that what they were taught is not what the Church has taught in the past
CV75 Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 I see what you are saying. But my issue is more with people who believe they have testimonies...and they actually do...with what they believe...but then they find out that what they were taught is not what the Church has taught in the pastThat is why a "testimony" of "fact" is not the same as a testimony of the truth. They are based on two sets of criteria that are sometimes conflated, and that probably happens as often without a crisis of faith as with one. But the Church is no less true because someone gives some new fact or "fact" as much weight as the voice of the Spirit he has already received, just as it isn't more more because someone sees a sign where there isn't one, or accepts (or assumes) non-spiritual evidence in substitution for the confirmation of the Spirit.
Garden Girl Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Hello name...Let me see if I can add to this discussion... you're new here so you probably have not seen the example I'm going to give... others who have, bear with me.Losing a testimony can come at any time, like when someone is inactive, or if they have something they read or hear that creates doubt in their mind that they can't reconcile... sometimes I do wonder how someone who has had a truly strong testimony can actually cease to believe... but it happens. Now, for my example... I've been participating on this board since 2005 and have seen all types of discussions, and posts by critics... but in Oct 2009 there was a discussion going on (I can't even remember what the topic was now)... but it gave me pause... and while it did not actually shake my faith it made me "uncomfortable." This uneasy feeling stayed with me for several days. October general conference came, and at the opening Saturday morning session, I was settling down to watch... my mind was clear of everything except for the beautiful music of the Choir. Suddenly, came into my mind and heart the words, as if someone were standing right beside me... "Do not be afraid... the Gospel is correct... stay faithful... stay true." And with those words a feeling of peace and comfort flowed through me and any concern about the topic that had troubled me left me, and all I felt was peace... and happiness as I watched conference with testimony strong and intact... I have through the years continued to nourish my testimony through study and prayer, and I think often of those words I received through the Spirit... from the beach in a thunderstorm and summer rain... GG 3
name Posted July 14, 2014 Author Posted July 14, 2014 Hey Garden Girl! Hello name... Let me see if I can add to this discussion... you're new here so you probably have not seen the example I'm going to give... others who have, bear with me. Losing a testimony can come at any time, like when someone is inactive, or if they have something they read or hear that creates doubt in their mind that they can't reconcile... sometimes I do wonder how someone who has had a truly strong testimony can actually cease to believe... but it happens. Now, for my example... I've been participating on this board since 2005 and have seen all types of discussions, and posts by critics... but in Oct 2009 there was a discussion going on (I can't even remember what the topic was now)... but it gave me pause... and while it did not actually shake my faith it made me "uncomfortable." This uneasy feeling stayed with me for several days. October general conference came, and at the opening Saturday morning session, I was settling down to watch... my mind was clear of everything except for the beautiful music of the Choir. Suddenly, came into my mind and heart the words, as if someone were standing right beside me... "Do not be afraid... the Gospel is correct... stay faithful... stay true." And with those words a feeling of peace and comfort flowed through me and any concern about the topic that had troubled me left me, and all I felt was peace... and happiness as I watched conference with testimony strong and intact... I have through the years continued to nourish my testimony through study and prayer, and I think often of those words I received through the Spirit... from the beach in a thunderstorm and summer rain... GG What a beautiful contribution! Thanks for sharing it!
why me Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 !Doesn't it speak much more to and about the testimony itself?Perhaps this is true. It really doesn't speak much for the testimony itself. However, we also see at the time of Paul people leaving the lds church, perhaps joining up with the pagans. Why? I am sure that they also had testimonies. I believe that those people who have had strong spiritual experiences very rarely leave the lds faith. We see this at the time of Joseph Smith. For example, Lucy Walker had a strong spiritual experience about polygamy and she stayed with the church for her whole life. Likewise for zina huntington. And eliza snow too. All these people and countless more have had a strong spiritual experience that the church is true. However,we cannot overlook the power of the adversary either. He is stong and diabolical. It is no surprise that someone who received a testimony may forsake it over something historical or by reading a book about church history. I haven't met a catholic who has left the catholic faith over its history. Likewise for other faiths. But for the lds faith it seems that people can leave for the slightest of reasons. I can only blame it on the adversary even though this may sound unbelievable. I have had strong spiritual experiences in the lds church and I am very much inactive. But I cannot deny those experiences because they were so powerful and convincing. And it wasn't a burning of the bossom. So I am still around. But yes, I can say that it does seem that lds testimonies can seem to be built on sand.
Mudcat Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) Good morning all!Your thoughts, perspectives, opinions and experiences are humbly requested. Hi name, Let me preface this by saying I am not LDS. I am an evangelical type of Christian. For the record I do believe that a testimony, at least in the Christian sort of sense, is a God given affirmation of what God wants a person to know, given through the Holy Spirit. In short, it's a message from God that a person believes. Is it possible for the ideas of another individual to destroy a testimony? No. Is it possible for the ideas of another individual to destroy the value you give a testimony? Possibly yes.. more likely it's possible for another person's ideas to be the straw that breaks the camels back so to speak, when it comes to faith. To be analagous, say that belief in things is"money" and the different things you believe in is "your portfolio".... there are plenty of other things to believe and we will treat it like the "stock market." Most folks that I know that have abandoned faith have given up a controlling interest in their investment in their testimony. Rather than buying in to a specific idea that caused such a thing, they have invested themselves in mutual fund of lots of ideas that don't agree with God. At some point, (maybe when they purchase one particular idea) they realise that their God stock no longer has a controlling interest. Seems par for the course, that at this point a person dumps all their stock in their testimony and invests it elsewhere. In general, I think it takes buying into an amalgamation of ideas rather a specific idea to cause a person to abandon their testimony. Regards, Mudcat Edited July 14, 2014 by Mudcat 4
name Posted July 14, 2014 Author Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) Hi name, Hi Mudcat, Let me preface this by saying I am not LDS. Nor am I. I am an evangelical type of Christian. Just when I thought things couldn't possibly get any worse! (Kidding, friend!) Is it possible for the ideas of another individual to destroy a testimony? No. Is it possible for the ideas of another individual to destroy the value you give a testimony? Possibly yes.. more likely it's possible for another person's ideas to be the straw that breaks the camels back so to speak, when it comes to faith. To be analagous, say that belief in things is"money" and the different things you believe in is "your portfolio".... there are plenty of other things to believe and we will treat it like the "stock market." Most folks that I know that have abandoned faith have given up a controlling interest in their investment in their testimony. Rather than buying in to a specific idea that caused such a thing, they have invested themselves in mutual fund of lots of ideas that don't agree with God. At some point, (maybe when they purchase one particular idea) they realise that their God stock no longer has a controlling interest. Seems par for the course, that at this point a person dumps all their stock in their testimony and invests it elsewhere. In general, I think it takes buying into an amalgamation of ideas rather a specific idea to cause a person. Regards, Mudcat Interesting and thought provoking perspective! Thanks for sharing it! Edited July 14, 2014 by name
readstoomuch Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 A testimony is a living thing in some ways like the love someone has for a spouse. If you don't work at it or receive contradictory information, then it can change. Sandra Tanner and others like her package information that is slanted or half truths. For me this was usually investigators or inexperienced people in the Church. See other threads about what MS or OW has done, I have too much personal experience with these entities. I thought I would cut to the chase.
name Posted July 14, 2014 Author Posted July 14, 2014 Hi readstoomuch! A testimony is a living thing in some ways like the love someone has for a spouse. If you don't work at it or receive contradictory information, then it can change. If a testimony is something one knows is true - how can truth change if you don't work on it or receive contradictory information? Can you give an example of this? If a testimony is merely a personal belief - I understand what you mean. Sandra Tanner and others like her package information that is slanted or half truths. Is it possible that Sandra Tanner simply shares what she believes, personally, to be true? Isn't that what most/all of us do? Thanks.
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