"visions Of Glory" - Nonsense? Or Legit?

[juliann]

A portion of the most distasteful episode, which is given more detail than Christ's coming.  It is one of the few accounts that portray any emotion beyond "we rejoiced!" type exclamations.

 

            When he reached a pinnacle of lust in his body, a black tear or rip appeared at the crown of his head. In that instant the disembodied spirits began to attack.  They looked like football players tackling the guy with the ball. They were hoping to share just a moment of his physical feelings and excitement. They acted like hungry dogs going after the same carcass. There was fierce competition among them to be in him longer.  They fought to be next, screaming and cursing, throwing each other aside to enter. As soon as one or two spirits entered, no more could enter. The evil spirits screamed and dove at him repeatedly until a weaker one inside was expelled and they took its place. It seemed to me that the ones who were expelled were exhausted, jerking on the floor as if they were in a sexual thrall themselves, mimicking the actions of the young man at the computer. I tried to turn my face away in disgust, but I could not. The image was before me no matter which way I turned. The evil ones quickly recovered and rejoined the fight to reenter over and over. p 105

 

 

His angel is making him watch this, he can't turn away!  (Always a loss of agency in his stories.) Spencer, very early in the story, is in such a state of perfection that watching porn doesn't result in any demons entering him.  (Always a double standard in his stories.) Yet the evil spirits woke up their victim in the middle of the night so that he would sidle over to the computer in his underpants.

[bdouglas]

As for Moses, he has been replaced.  Pontius assures us that hearing Spencer....

 

" . . .was like listening to John the Beloved or Moses describe events the world has pondered for all time..."

 

If somebody had said something like this about Joseph Smith, within his hearing, he would have rebuked them. I recall he once said (paraphrase): "I do not want you to think me a very good man, for I am not."

 

I wonder Spencer was not embarrassed to read words like this about himself when he reviewed the book before publication (as Sister Pontius assures us he did). Any but a narcissistic personality would be embarrassed by things like that and insist they be taken out.

 

ManOftheCloth:

You have assured me more than once of Spencer's deep humility. But how could a person with "deep humility" allow such things (not only what is quoted above but all of the other such statements in the book) to be said about him?

Edited July 2, 2014 by bdouglas

[bdouglas]

Both Spencer and Pontius come across as weak-minded and credulous in "Visions". I believe Pontius was sincere and simply deluded, and I used to think the same about Spencer. But now I'm not so sure anymore.

[juliann]

Now that I located the book, I am noticing even more.  Some of the better contradictions....

 

p 163  "The Church had a worldwide communication system in place and they led us with inspired counsel and kept us informed of world events."

 

p 166   ". . .we also longed to know what was happening in the rest of the world. . .Most of us wanted to know whether the United States had survived as a nation. . ."

 

And, so much for metaphor that Pontius tries to hide behind....

 

p 146-47    ". . .I knew I had been shown actual events in my future, I knew it nothing doubting, and I rejoiced.  The visions I had seen years earlier were to guide me to this moment.  The visions I saw now completed my education and gave me all of the missing pieces.  (And yet, Spencer claims up to the end he doesn't understand what everything means and still doesn't.)

 

Orderly chaos....

 

p 41.  He describes the angels involvement.  "This process is extremely orderly and divinely orchestrated."

 

p 21  "All of the spirit people I saw (they are 'semi-transparent') were surrounding mortals, observing them or trying to gain their attention so they could influence them in some way. "  ( And then there are the dead people who don't know they are dead and no angel cares enough to tell them, I guess. ) "These spirits were gathering around mortals, talking to them as if they thought the mortals were listening to them."  Now, mind you, this isn't accounting for the evil spirits who are cackling up a storm.  This is his idea of "orderly" just in a hospital waiting room.  And he says it is like this all the time.

 

 

And my all time fav....

 

p viii "The few times he tried to relate his visions to others, it cost him friends and has brought ridicule and rejection in some cases. "

 

p 37  "Narrating this book is actually the first time in my life that I have tried to put all of these experiences into words. I have wondered, pondered, and prayed about them for the most of my life, but this is the first time I have tried to describe them aloud."

Edited July 3, 2014 by juliann

[rodheadlee]

It sounds just like a scene from the movie Ghost

[K-2]

Spencer writes:

 

"As soon as one or two spirits entered, no more could enter."

 

 

Compare with:

 

 

Luke 8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

 

 

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

 

 

Mark 5:9-13 

 

   9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

 11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;  ) and were choked in the sea.

 

 

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

Edited July 4, 2014 by K-2

[K-2]

Spencer wrote:

 

"It became evident to me that the unborn spirits could choose their shape, just as Satan did in the Garden of Eden by appearing in the shape of a snake. This was the first time I realized that spirits who would never receive a physical body had the ability to appear any way they chose."

 

Compare with:

 

Moses 4:6-7

6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

7 And he said unto the woman: Yea, hath God said—Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (And he spake by the mouth of the serpent.)

[K-2]

Spencer wrote:

 

"The western coast of California, Mexico, and all the way to the tip of South America, was shaken so badly that much of it broke away from the mainland and formed a series of islands off the coast."

 

Hmm, sounds a lot like the book The Vision by David Wilkerson. It also reminds me of the TV movie 10.5 from May 2-3, 2004, and also the California earthquake scene in the film 2012, released on November 13, 2009, a couple of years before Visions of Glory came out. Coincidence?

Rick Wilson, an Engineering Geologist with the California Geological Survey, in a review of 10.5 had this to say about the idea of large portions of California sinking into the ocean due to an earthquake:

 

Before you go out and buy that land in the desert because it will someday be "beachfront property" (as Lex Luthor does in the 1978 "Superman: The Movie"), you should know that there is no chance of California falling off into the ocean and disappearing, or portions of it becoming an island all at once (as in the miniseries "10.5" or the movie “Escape from L.A.”).

In California, the San Andreas fault forms the boundary between two huge tectonic plates. The movement along the fault is sideways, or lateral, where the land on the west side is moving north relative to the land on the east. Because of this very slow lateral movement, which has a component of compression also, millions of years from now the cities of San Francisco and Los Angeles might be nearly adjacent to one another but neither will fall off into the ocean.

This is the biggest "urban legend" that has survived despite all the efforts of scientists to dispose of it. California falling into the ocean is strictly science fiction.

 

http://www.conservation.ca.gov/cgs/earthquakedoc/eq-movie_reviews/pages/nbc-10.aspx

[jwhitlock]

I am sure that is what the elders of the church told the inhabitants of Jerusalem when Lehi started raising a ruckus. Rather then put all our trust in a man or men- how about we get close to the Spirit so He can tell us when we are being told truth or pablum?

 

The difference, of course, is that today there is a church on the earth, led by an authorized prophet of God, who has been designated to receive that revelation. Those who have the Spirit recognize that, and have received witnesses confirming that. That was not the case in Lehi's time.

 

Are you saying that "Spencer" is a prophet come to condemn the church in the same manner as Lehi?  That the church is about to be destroyed because of rank apostasy from the top down?

 

I hope not.

[jwhitlock]

Finally a glimmer of help in this MDDB echo chamber. Thank you BookofMormonLuvr for the fig leaf. God's covenant people tend to mock anything which does not conform to orthodoxy, but I'm sure that doesn't apply to you. If God wants to send a message through anyone other than our prophet, the covenanters will not be listening, but that won't include you. Spencer doesn't say, 'thus saith the Lord' so his message is probably not a test except in the sense of a wake-up call. Wake up Zion! How does this sound: 'MDDB posters (bDouglas, El Nehor, Juliann etc) can leave the book on the shelf (and please do) but they can't leave it alone'

 

Covenants are a foundational aspect of the gospel. I find it interesting that you would sneer at "covenant people" in this manner.

 

Aside from that, you haven't really provided any useful information validating VoG yet. How come there's no corroborating evidence provided? And why did Pontius's widow remove the interview with "Spencer" from her web site?

[jwhitlock]

Surely you remember Joseph's torture when his own wife and the stake president of Nauvoo asked the same question? "Why in this time of need are you hiding?" Joseph came out from hiding and was slaughtered. Spencer may not be a Joseph or an Abinidai because he is what he is. Something prompted both he and Pontius to remain anonymous. With all the pressure on his identity it is a wonder it is still mostly unknown. A miracle perhaps.

 

There's got to be a better reason for staying anonymous than that. If members of the church are embracing what you've written as prophetic, then the prophet needs to be made known. Comparisons to Joseph Smith, in this case, fall flat.

[jwhitlock]

At some point all believers of any eschatological puzzle must take a leap of faith. You can't prove Moses' story, and it is in true scripture. Spencer's was a vision which he shared with you in his courage but you are not under the same obligation to believe him as you are with Moses. The only false information I see pouring out is from this MDDB forum. We have twisted Spencer's words then mocked him for their mockings. This is how mocking and satire works. It is unfair and it is why mockers are liars and deceivers.  Korihor was the master satirist by first twisting the words of the believers.  He said, "Ye say that this people is a guilty and a fallen people, because of the transgression of a parent. Behold, I say that a child is not guilty because of its parents." (Alma 30:25) That is not what believers said then nor is it said now, but Korihor said they said it so he was followed and adjolated. This is the problem with echo chamber cultures who can't open their mind to new things.

 

How can you say that the last half of the book gives us "hope" about the last times? The overall message of "Spencer"'s vision was that members of the church are basically subject to the same roll-of-the-dice calamities than anyone is, and that there is no special protection for them until they reach Zion. Faithful members of the church, including leaders, are dropping like flies, the church is disrupted to the point it becomes non-functional in many areas, and people are left to fend for themselves - until they can claw their way through their own strength into some protected enclave through.

 

Where's the hope in all of that?

[manofthecloth]

Spencer's crap is not new. Things like it appear in many dispensations. Read some of the apostate works from the time right after Christ or some of the Jewish legends and pseudo scripture. The style is uncannily familiar. All are sensational but insipid and are self-gratifying. They make noises about virtue but the characters show none (mostly because the writer does not understand it).

 

Criticism of believers is not new either. The torrent of vitriol poured out on Christ started well before He was murdered and is present with us to this day. I remember an experience I had with a true and most sincere un-believer of Christ recently. In Brooklyn he asked, "do you know why Jesus could walk on water?" I was silent because I didn't want to hear him say anything blasphemous, but he continued without my reply. "He could walk on water because he wrote G-d's name on the bottom of his feet!" He went on to explain the other parlor tricks Christ used in the name of Satan to deceive the world. We take our belief in Christ for granted. We beat our chests at Spencer and boldly say he is of the devil in the spirit of a mob. Insipid are the non-substantive complaints I have heard about the book so far. Self-gratifying are the mockers who cannot leave this book on the shelf and who deem it their mission to criticize it. Un-intellectual are the deriders who will not answer a point-by-point doctrinal reply about why the book isn't a threat to anyone's belief system; not a threat except to the kind of belief system which demands milk at every table lest the meat cause disunity.  Nibley was the best at finding the diamonds leftover from the early Christian era because there was an abundance of both truth and error to discover. Our latter-day saint movement also provided both truth and error at the beginning. An account like this one is rare and does bear the same investigative marks of truth or error. It is ready for sincere investigators to find out whether it is clinker or diamond. 

[manofthecloth]

Covenants are a foundational aspect of the gospel. I find it interesting that you would sneer at "covenant people" in this manner.

 

Aside from that, you haven't really provided any useful information validating VoG yet. How come there's no corroborating evidence provided? And why did Pontius's widow remove the interview with "Spencer" from her web site?

 

I take my personal role as a member of said covenant people seriously. Don't you? The warnings of the past, when it comes to covenant people, are worth studying. Sneer? Sneer was not my intent, but wake up is my personal preference for Zion; Zion is my church. Jeremiah didn't sneer when he said, "For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely." -- Jeremiah 6:13 -- Jeremiah warned a re-warned. I see no special status for us as the covenant people of this present day. We are not better than Israel of old and we must bear the lessons of the Nephites or be punished like they were punished.

 

Useful information? That's not my job. I have no special relationship with the book above having read it. The book stands on its own for me. As for why recordings were taken down, I don't know. I went looking for it myself and found it early on, but couldn't listen again when I searched. I have come to realize lately if Spencer's identity was revealed, he would not be serving in his ward as he is. He would be attacked mercilessly by critics, but he also would have the fawning adulation of people who liked his book. He said he didn't want to be a guru to anyone. He said  he supports the Brethren.  It's all good. 

[jwhitlock]

I take my personal role as a member of said covenant people seriously. Don't you? The warnings of the past, when it comes to covenant people, are worth studying. Sneer? Sneer was not my intent, but wake up is my personal preference for Zion; Zion is my church. Jeremiah didn't sneer when he said, "For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely." -- Jeremiah 6:13 -- Jeremiah warned a re-warned. I see no special status for us as the covenant people of this present day. We are not better than Israel of old and we must bear the lessons of the Nephites or be punished like they were punished.

 

Useful information? That's not my job. I have no special relationship with the book above having read it. The book stands on its own for me. As for why recordings were taken down, I don't know. I went looking for it myself and found it early on, but couldn't listen again when I searched. I have come to realize lately if Spencer's identity was revealed, he would not be serving in his ward as he is. He would be attacked mercilessly by critics, but he also would have the fawning adulation of people who liked his book. He said he didn't want to be a guru to anyone. He said  he supports the Brethren.  It's all good. 

 

As people are faithful to the covenants they have made in the gospel, they are promised spiritual safety, and the strength and/or protection needed to overcome temporal afflictions. Alma 36:3 is very specific about this.

 

"Spencer's" vision contradicts that principle. Faithfulness in keeping covenants is no guarantee, according to "Spencer", that one will have any protection whatsoever in the coming times. Indeed, the whole tone of the "vision", which is rather dark because of the destruction that comes, is in direct contrast with what leaders of the church have told us. Faithful Latter-day Saints need not fear. It will be a time of great rejoicing because of the blessings that are poured out upon the saints. That is not the tone of what "Spencer" tells us.

 

Whether someone believes in "Spencer's" vision is not a measure of their faithfulness as a covenant-making Latter-day Saint. Yet you have told us that VoG is some kind of "sifter", as if it is actually a litmus test of faithfulness and closeness to the Spirit. That same sentiment has been expressed in other places (IIRC, some of the comments on Kelly Ogden's article at Meridian said this); it seems that many of those who have a "testimony" of VoG (as they put it) consider those who don't to be spiritually immature.

 

As has been reiterated by others on this thread, the book does NOT stand on its own. By itself, the book is contradictory. It requires corroborating evidence, yet all we have is anonymity and obfuscation when the hard questions are asked. It doesn't stand up well under scrutiny, and we are asked to take it on some kind of "faith" - though faith in what is never really defined for us. Faith that "Spencer" is a prophet? Not without knowing who he is. 

[Calm]

"Insipid are the non-substantive complaints I have heard about the book so far. Self-gratifying are the mockers who cannot leave this book on the shelf and who deem it their mission to criticize it. Un-intellectual are the deriders who will not answer a point-by-point doctrinal reply about why the book isn't a threat to anyone's belief system; not a threat except to the kind of belief system which demands milk at every table lest the meat cause disunity."

Iow you are ignoring everything Juliann, k2 and Whitlock have been putting up and instead just gone on extolling the book without providing hardly any substance from the book at all yourself. References to actual prophets do not demonstrate Spencer is one just by association.

Please post quotes from the book that you believe provide insight into doctrine, old or new.

Using the book, show us where as you have done with quoting scriptures it will wake us up.

Please show us how the book will bring the Saints together instead of creating disunity through a caste system of family being longer in the Church

Please show us where the book gives hope to the faithful.

I would suggest doing one at a time with several posts covering in detail each topic, much like Juliann has done in her criticism of it.

[juliann]

An account like this one is rare and does bear the same investigative marks of truth or error. It is ready for sincere investigators to find out whether it is clinker or diamond. 

Accounts like these are so ubiquitous it is easy to identify his sources, all he has done is added an awful lot of filler extolling his own elevated status which began in his mother's womb.  The only thing I can imagine this book testifying to is the truth of the BOM by comparison. If JS did not translate an ancient text, this is a good example of what it looks like when you try and fly by the seat of your pants.

 

If disasters occur, the Saints are going to suffer just as much as their neighbors. I do not think that being a Mormon grants all of us automatic special protection from the elements or situation.  But that isn't what Spencer is claiming.  He specifically says he is gathering the "elite" only.  And they have to be from the right place,  (although he doesn't know the difference between a continent and a nation he sure knows the difference between the white folk and everybody else.)  And he continually refers to the "elite"  as those needing assistance and he is, of course, the assistant, and thus uber-elite.  He confuses humility with hubris as he becomes Jesus' right hand guy while giving church authorities bit parts.

 

Among the many downright funny parts, he doesn't appear to have read much scripture.  For example, he just has no idea what the pillar of light in the front and rear of their procession is for.  That will be another enlightening list.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The difference, of course, is that today there is a church on the earth, led by an authorized prophet of God, who has been designated to receive that revelation. Those who have the Spirit recognize that, and have received witnesses confirming that. That was not the case in Lehi's time.

 

Are you saying that "Spencer" is a prophet come to condemn the church in the same manner as Lehi?  That the church is about to be destroyed because of rank apostasy from the top down?

 

I hope not.

All I know about "Spencer" and his book is what I have read here. I have no opinion one way or another. 

I don't believe the LDS Church will be destroyed, as it is a portion of the Restored Church. Will it be brought into proper order, along with the other organizations, when we are in Zion? Yes, I believe so.

The Priesthood structure was in place during Lehi's time and the leaders of the church became out of order, which is why many prophets were sent to warn the people of judgement. I believe it is silly for any church to believe that they are so righteous that they will be the exception.

 

[The Nehor]

Criticism of believers is not new either. The torrent of vitriol poured out on Christ started well before He was murdered and is present with us to this day. I remember an experience I had with a true and most sincere un-believer of Christ recently. In Brooklyn he asked, "do you know why Jesus could walk on water?" I was silent because I didn't want to hear him say anything blasphemous, but he continued without my reply. "He could walk on water because he wrote G-d's name on the bottom of his feet!" He went on to explain the other parlor tricks Christ used in the name of Satan to deceive the world. We take our belief in Christ for granted. We beat our chests at Spencer and boldly say he is of the devil in the spirit of a mob. Insipid are the non-substantive complaints I have heard about the book so far. Self-gratifying are the mockers who cannot leave this book on the shelf and who deem it their mission to criticize it. Un-intellectual are the deriders who will not answer a point-by-point doctrinal reply about why the book isn't a threat to anyone's belief system; not a threat except to the kind of belief system which demands milk at every table lest the meat cause disunity.  Nibley was the best at finding the diamonds leftover from the early Christian era because there was an abundance of both truth and error to discover. Our latter-day saint movement also provided both truth and error at the beginning. An account like this one is rare and does bear the same investigative marks of truth or error. It is ready for sincere investigators to find out whether it is clinker or diamond. 

 

I do not take my belief in Christ for granted and I am quite disgusted at you that you assume I do. People have been tearing apart the book intellectually through the whole thread. Your responses to their criticism are vague and/or a mindlell and meaningless testimonial about what it has done for you.

 

I sincerely investigated. By page three.......drum roll please......CLINKER!!!!!!!

[jwhitlock]

All I know about "Spencer" and his book is what I have read here. I have no opinion one way or another. 

I don't believe the LDS Church will be destroyed, as it is a portion of the Restored Church. Will it be brought into proper order, along with the other organizations, when we are in Zion? Yes, I believe so.

The Priesthood structure was in place during Lehi's time and the leaders of the church became out of order, which is why many prophets were sent to warn the people of judgement. I believe it is silly for any church to believe that they are so righteous that they will be the exception.

 

 

Again, it's not about whether the church believes it is righteous or not. It's about whether the church is currently led by God's prophets. We believe it is, and so the comparison with Lehi's time ends there. During Lehi's time, those in charge had come under condemnation from God which led to the Babylonian destruction.

 

If you're comparing "Spencer" to Lehi, the comparison is invalid on a number of levels. The church is not going to be devastated in the way "Spencer" portrays it, so it doesn't compare to Lehi's prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem. Lehi doesn't set himself up as an alternate authority to the Jewish hierarchy; while "Spencer" says he supports the leaders of the church, he ends up working outside of their authority structure in his vision. Lehi leaves Jerusalem with his family to set up a new life for themselves in the promised land.  "Spencer" doesn't even say much about his family, but sets himself up as an alternate authority in the church.

 

While the individuals in the church certainly are not perfect, the only real question is whether D&C 1:30 still applies in our day. Is the Lord still pleased with the church collectively? I believe He is, and if so, God will work through that church to accomplish His ends. He's not going to call other prophets outside of the authority structure of the church to give conflicting direction. It's really an either / or situation. Either you believe that the authority of God to prepare for the Second Coming rests in the church as presently constituted, or it doesn't. If it does, then "Spencer's" visions are irrelevant to us today. If you believe in "Spencer", then you must of necessity reject prophetic authority as currently constituted in the church.

 

And I do realize you don't believe in "Spencer". The situation is simply not comparable to what was going on in Lehi's day.

[juliann]

Criticism of believers is not new either. The torrent of vitriol poured out on Christ started well before He was murdered and is present with us to this day. 

 

I've lost count of how holy names start popping up around his name, starting with Moses and John the Baptist.  But Christ? Really?  God could have saved a lot of trouble and just sent Spencer to begin with.   Are you actually unaware that Spencer's nirvana is that we all think alike to the point we have no thoughts of our own, we are just a body that the HG has complete and total control over to the point we don't much care if our entire family disappears, because, as you say, "it's all good."  Kind of sounds like a plan somebody else had....

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Again, it's not about whether the church believes it is righteous or not. It's about whether the church is currently led by God's prophets. We believe it is, and so the comparison with Lehi's time ends there. During Lehi's time, those in charge had come under condemnation from God which led to the Babylonian destruction.

 

If you're comparing "Spencer" to Lehi, the comparison is invalid on a number of levels. The church is not going to be devastated in the way "Spencer" portrays it, so it doesn't compare to Lehi's prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem. Lehi doesn't set himself up as an alternate authority to the Jewish hierarchy; while "Spencer" says he supports the leaders of the church, he ends up working outside of their authority structure in his vision. Lehi leaves Jerusalem with his family to set up a new life for themselves in the promised land.  "Spencer" doesn't even say much about his family, but sets himself up as an alternate authority in the church.

 

While the individuals in the church certainly are not perfect, the only real question is whether D&C 1:30 still applies in our day. Is the Lord still pleased with the church collectively? I believe He is, and if so, God will work through that church to accomplish His ends. He's not going to call other prophets outside of the authority structure of the church to give conflicting direction. It's really an either / or situation. Either you believe that the authority of God to prepare for the Second Coming rests in the church as presently constituted, or it doesn't. If it does, then "Spencer's" visions are irrelevant to us today. If you believe in "Spencer", then you must of necessity reject prophetic authority as currently constituted in the church.

 

And I do realize you don't believe in "Spencer". The situation is simply not comparable to what was going on in Lehi's day.

 

Again, I was not comparing "Spencer" to Lehi. I was commenting on the belief that it is literally impossible for the LDS Church or it's leaders to be in theological error or that He (YHVH) cannot use men as prophets who don't come from the power structure of the institutional church. Lehi held Priesthood, but was outside the power structure of the corporate church, and YHVH used him to call the people and leaders to repentance. 

[jwhitlock]

 

Again, I was not comparing "Spencer" to Lehi. I was commenting on the belief that it is literally impossible for the LDS Church or it's leaders to be in theological error or that He (YHVH) cannot use men as prophets who don't come from the power structure of the institutional church. Lehi held Priesthood, but was outside the power structure of the corporate church, and YHVH used him to call the people and leaders to repentance. 

 

There has to be a compelling reason for God to work in that manner. That reason existed in Lehi's day. It does not exist today, so it is improbable that God is going to give authoritative, "sifting" visions to a person outside of that authority structure.

[juliann]

Two brethren show up with a military truck.  Spencer doesn't inquire how they got it, of course, and his memory always fails him when it comes to identifying details.  "We didn't even ask how they had acquired this big truck. . ."  Spencer is only able to identify it as "Asian."  (That means it is from bad people.) The truck saved their lives many times.  Now, this is a miltary truck from the future, but it relies on a cloth cover and steel hoops. 

 

 It had a large flat bed, about twenty-five feet long, with a fabric cover that could be set up on steel hoops, which made it look like a mammoth covered wagon. It had four driven axles and large, high flotation tires. The front two axles steered, and the back two were fixed. The steering wheel was on the right side of the cab. I think it had been made in Asia, but I don't remember any insignias on the truck itself. p 152

 

 

Perhaps some of the visions can be explained by Spencer thinking you can filter anti-freeze and drink it.

 

       We also discovered that there was a water purification plant built into the truck. We could pour dirty water from a puddle, or even antifreeze from a car radiator, into it, and it would make fresh water for us to drink. This was a great blessing to our journey.

 

Now he finds writing, but even though traveling with people from the most bilingual state in the nation, he can only identify the truck as "Asian."  And no page in the book is complete without at least one "marveling."  He seems to think his Forrest Gump approach to common knowledge (and scripture)  is a sign of humility...or an opportunity to rejoice and marvel as a way of showing deference to God when he gains minimal knowledge.
 

   The system was near the engine and was not readily apparent. Because the writing was not in English, we weren't sure what it was or what it did. I watched one of the brethren pour dirty water into the square funnel. I stood there doubting that this was what it was for, or that clean water would be the result. About twenty minutes later, the most pure and refreshing water began running into a heavy plastic container at the bottom of the truck. Filthy water was draining onto the ground. I remember tasting it and marveling. p 153-54

 

 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

There has to be a compelling reason for God to work in that manner. That reason existed in Lehi's day. It does not exist today, so it is improbable that God is going to give authoritative, "sifting" visions to a person outside of that authority structure.

That is what Laman & Lemuel thought also...

 

 

 

1 Nephi 17:22

22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us.

** It is harder to see when in the midst of it, rather then reviewing it in hindsight. **