No Death Before The Fall Anywhere On Earth

[Rob Osborn]

It was brought up in another thread that there is no official teaching by the church concerning "no death before the fall" on the entire earth. Of obvious implication here is that if there was no death upon the earth before the fall of Adam and Eve then evolution is false along with a lot of other related issues like the age of things, etc. I found a short list of teachings from LDS official manuals that I thought would be helpful in clarifying that the church does have a position and its clear that there was no death on the entire earth before the fall of Adam. Here-

"The fall of Adam brought physical death into the world" (True to the faith pg. 46-47)

"Their part in our Father’s plan was to bring mortality into the world . " (Gospel Principles pg. 26)

" Adam and Eve were married by God before there was any death in the world" (Gospel Principles pg.219)

" 3. The Fall of Adam brought death onto this earth.... •“There was no death in the earth before the fall of Adam. … “The gospel teaches us that if Adam and Eve had not partaken of that fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would have remained in the Garden of Eden in that same condition prevailing before the fall. … In regard to the pre-mortal condition of Adam and the entire earth, Lehi has stated the following:

“‘And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end’ [2 Nephi 2:22]” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:108–9)." (Doctrines of the gospel student manual)

"The fall brought mortality and death to the earth" (The Guide to the Scriptures, death, physical)

"

“Then comes the Fall; Adam falls; mortality and procreation and death commence. Fallen man is mortal; he has mortal flesh; he is ‘the first flesh upon the earth.’ And the effects of his fall pass upon all created things. They fall in that they too become mortal. Death enters the world; mortality reigns; procreation commences; and the Lord’s great and eternal purposes roll onward” (“Christ and the Creation,” Ensign, June 1982, 14). “Mortality and procreation and death all had their beginnings with the Fall. …

“… An infinite Creator, in the primeval day, made the earth and man and all forms of life in such a state that they could fall. This fall involved a change of status. All things were so created that they could fall or change. …

“… In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher state than now prevails. … Death and procreation had yet to enter the world” (Ensign, June 1982, 9). (Book of Mormon student manual pg. 46-47)

[BCSpace]

The only problem is what were they cast out into and why (and literally how) was the way back under guard?  That implies an unsettled doctrine as to whether or not the garden state was local.

 

However, I can go either way, local or global, and Evolution still fits just fine within the context of LDS doctrine.

Edited June 14, 2014 by BCSpace

[Ahab]

You do realize that people, including members of the Church, will still twist and contort and "wrest" and incorrectly interpret and incorrectly understand and... however else you want to say it... the scriptures and teachings of our Lord's prophets and apostles, don't cha?

And there isn't a darn thing you can do or say to stop it, either, Rob.

I am glad to know that you and I are in agreement on this issue, anyway, though. And I also won't ever totally stop trying to teach people the truth on this issue, either.

[BCSpace]

You do realize that people, including members of the Church, will still twist and contort and "wrest" and incorrectly interpret and incorrectly understand and... however else you want to say it... the scriptures and teachings of our Lord's prophets and apostles, don't cha?

 

 

Curious.  Do you think it's twisting or wresting to believe that indeed there was no death before the Fall and yet believe there was death before the garden state?  Even considering the following timeline?:

 

Death and Evolution--->Adam placed into the Garden State (2 Nephi 2:22)--->The Fall --->Death and Evolution

[BCSpace]

According to the scriptures, the garden itself was a relatively small locality.

 

Perhaps the area covered by the state of no death was global and then after the Fall it shrunk to the small locality of the garden? The way back still had to be guarded by Cherubims and a flaming sword (Genesis 3:24).

 

Perhaps the garden was on the spaceship that brought Adam and the Fall was his being kicked off the ship?

 

Help me out here.  What are some of the possible explanations for a global state of no death?

 

I freely admit that it would be easier for my hypothesis if there were a local state of no death.  But perhaps a good explanation for a global state would help me breathe easier when I explain my hypothesis in the context of a global state.

[Rob Osborn]

Curious.  Do you think it's twisting or wresting to believe that indeed there was no death before the Fall and yet believe there was death before the garden state?  Even considering the following timeline?:

 

Death and Evolution--->Adam placed into the Garden State (2 Nephi 2:22)--->The Fall --->Death and Evolution

I dont really see how it fits with scripture. 2 Nephi ch. 2 states that had they not fallen all of creation would have remained in the same state they were created in. This leads to the doctrine that God created all life in an immortal state and remained in that state until the fall.

[BCSpace]

I dont really see how it fits with scripture. 2 Nephi ch. 2 states that had they not fallen all of creation would have remained in the same state they were created in

 

 

 

The verse is actually a bit different than how you presented it.

 

And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

2 Nephi 2:22

 

They would have remained forever in the state they were in AFTER they were created.  Why would it make that distinction if the state of no death existed during the creative process?  Hence we see evidence that the state of no death possibly did not apply before Adam was placed into the garden and thus death and evolution could have existed during the creative state when all was being made ready for Adam.  The official doctrine is, afterall, that the plants and animals were here before Adam:

 

“Adam did not come to this earth until it was prepared for him. The animals were here. Plants were here. The Lord did not bring him here to a desolate world, and then bring other creatures. It was all prepared for him, just according to the order that is written in our scriptures, and when it was all ready for Adam he was placed upon the earth.

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-1-2-the-creation?lang=eng

 

[Thinking]

Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth before the Fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the Fall.

 

Link

[BCSpace]

 

Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth before the Fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the Fall.

 

Link

 

 

Ignoring for the moment what the Church says about the Bible Dictionary:

 

This dictionary is provided to help your study of the scriptures and is not intended as an official statement of Church doctrine or an endorsement of the historical and cultural views set forth.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd?lang=eng&letter=a]link

 

 

 

The statement you quote references 2 Nephi 2:22 where I noted a distinction being made to justify a proposed timeline in post #4.  With such a timeline, I can truthfully and logically state that there was no death before the Fall and at the same time state without conflict that there was death before Adam was placed into the garden.

[cdowis]

I will repeat my working hypothesis:

 

Death was present during the five days of creation, but suspended on the sixth day when the Garden of Eden and Adam were created.  As a "working" hypothesis, I also concede that this may contradict official LDS doctrine and the scriptures.

Edited June 14, 2014 by cdowis

[halconero]

I will repeat my working hypothesis:

Death was present during the five days of creation, but suspended on the sixth day when the Garden of Eden and Adam were created. As a "working" hypothesis, I also concede that this may contradict official LDS doctrine and the scriptures.

I believe it's a bit more complicated than that. The Genesis creation account is two stories amalgamated into one. These are called the Yahwist and the Priestly accounts by scholars. They differ in interesting, seemingly contradictory, and diverse manners.

The Priestly sources places Elohim as the creator of the world in six days, while the Yahwist source (starting in Genesis 2:3) has Yahweh (Jehovah) creating the world in one. In the former, man and woman are created simultaneously, while in the latter man is created before the woman, but before all living things.

Where things get even more complicated is that ancient Israel considered the Garden of Eden to be an instructory temple, injecting a mixture of symbolism into the mix.

Where a lot of these contradictions meet their resolution is in the Pearl of Great Price account, which indicated that the 6 day creation was the spiritual creation of not only the world, but spiritual children, and all other spiritual lifeforms created by God. The one day creation by Jehovah is then the material creation of the world.

BUT hold on. Latter-day Saint theology is rather firmly non-dualistic, meaning that we don't really hold their to be a dichotomy between the spiritual and material. Yes, we often divide this world from the spirit world, or say that the spirit is distinct from the body, but we are materialists in the belief that even spirit is matter and energy.

So we essentially have two materialistic-spiritual creations. Leaving the Genesis account left behind a "glass" as Paul would say. We can learn much more about morality and the plan of salvation from Genesis and the Fall than we can learn the exact mechanics of death, life, and creation.

My personal feelings? The scriptures simply state that Adam and Eve would've been left in the same state in which they were created had their been no Fall. I believe this has far deeper meaning than just physical death, and may even exclude it.

[MormonFreeThinker]

What does "to the world" mean? 

Adam and Eve were immortal in the garden, but when they fell they became mortal. 

 

So "to the world" can simply mean humanity. 

 

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" 

 

"that there was no death upon the earth prior to Adam's fall is likewise declared to be no doctrine of the Church. - Elder Talmage 

 

"I see large quantities of the remains ofliving organisms that testify to an ancient earth" - Dr. Frank B. Salisbury

http://ash.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=18&num=1&id=610&cat_id=592

 

"got up and bore my testimony that the evidence was strongly in the direction that the world was four or five billion years old." - From Henry Eyring, Reflections of a Scientist, 

 

"Dr. Henry Eyring, one of our leading scientists" 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1978/04/ye-shall-know-the-truth?lang=hye&clang=eng

 

"I am grateful to know that there are two methods of gaining knowledge — the scientific method and the spiritual method," - Elder Oaks 

 

"Latter-day Saints believe in applying the best available scientific knowledge and techniques." - Elder Oaks

 

 

 

 

[Lachoneus]

The only problem is what were they cast out into and why (and literally how) was the way back under guard?  That implies an unsettled doctrine as to whether or not the garden state was local.

 

However, I can go either way, local or global, and Evolution still fits just fine within the context of LDS doctrine.

 

It implies nothing of the kind. The scripture is abundantly clear that what was guarded by the cherubims and the flaming sword was the tree of life (Gen 3:22-24), not the garden as a whole. And they were kept away from the tree of life lest they partake of its fruit "and live for ever."

 

Evolution, as you use the term, does not fit within the context of LDS doctrine in the least.

 

The verse is actually a bit different than how you presented it.

 

 

They would have remained forever in the state they were in AFTER they were created.  Why would it make that distinction if the state of no death existed during the creative process?  Hence we see evidence that the state of no death possibly did not apply before Adam was placed into the garden and thus death and evolution could have existed during the creative state when all was being made ready for Adam.  The official doctrine is, afterall, that the plants and animals were here before Adam:

 

No, that verse is exactly as Rob presents it. You are the one who has misunderstood it.

 

Adam and Eve and all creation would have stayed in the state they were in after they were created because that is the only state in which they could remain, unchanged until the Fall. Before they were created, they were not created. They could not very well remain in an uncreated state until the Fall because they did not yet exist in a created state. This distinction has nothing to do with death or immortality. It has to do with existence or non-existence. Once everything was created, it then remained in that state in which it was created (immortal) until the Fall. There is no evidence here that the state of no death did not apply before Adam entered the garden. During the creative state there was neither death nor evolution because there was no change. Only after the Fall did change enter the world. And things have been changing ever since.

[Bikeemikey]

Another un-winnable debate between literalist Mormons and non-literalist Mormons.

And remember Rob. Just because something is church doctrine has no bearing on if it is correct. It just means the church teaches that it thinks it's correct.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[Bikeemikey]

It implies nothing of the kind. The scripture is abundantly clear that what was guarded by the cherubims and the flaming sword was the tree of life (Gen 3:22-24).

Scriptures imply what ever the reader wants them to... That is part of what makes them scripture.

[longview]

Curious.  Do you think it's twisting or wresting to believe that indeed there was no death before the Fall and yet believe there was death before the garden state?  Even considering the following timeline?:

 

Death and Evolution--->Adam placed into the Garden State (2 Nephi 2:22)--->The Fall --->Death and Evolution

 

This is NOT the only possible scenario.  What if earth was cobbled together with fragments of other dead planets?  There are teachings that indicate that the Lord has power to move earth from place to place.

 

Try this alternative timeline for size:

 

EPOCH 1:   (the previous generation of the Gods)

 

  various planets are formed to serve various purposes . . .

 

  not all of them are necessarily used for earth-like plan of salvation . . .

 

  layers on the planets are naturally formed by the usual geologic processes . . .

 

  some of the layers had conditions that ideal for preserving the "cast" of creatures that became part of the fossil record . . .

 

  not to say that macro evolution occurred on any of the planets (inter-species transitions) . . .

 

  some of these planets reach the end of their "lifespan" and die . . .

 

EPOCH 2:

 

  Hugh Nibley:  '. . . So we begin with an imponderable given quantity: "See, yonder is matter unorganized," or as the Book of Abraham puts it, "We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell." (Abraham 3:24.)'  See http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/I00073-Before_Adam.html

 

  Jehovah performs the formation of the earth in a region that is in "Terrestrial" state . . .

 

  using materials from the dead planets . . .

 

  where there is no death for any of the creatures . . .

 

  first the spirit entities are created and assigned (to their respective time on earth), then the physical . . .

 

  although there is no death, there is no overpopulation.  When a creature's stay on earth reaches a certain duration, it is transformed and sent to a different sphere (without tasting death) . . .

 

  these creatures were probably reproducing to replace those that pass on . . .

 

EPOCH 3:

 

  Abraham 5:

7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.  8 And the Gods planted a garden, eastward in Eden, and there they put the man, whose spirit they had put into the body which they had formed.

  although the creatures were reproducing, Adam and Eve could not have children . . .

 

  Adam and Eve "pull the trigger" to put the "Plan of Redemption" into effect by partaking of the Forbidden Fruit . . .

  thereby causing death to come upon the entire earth, the Fall of all nature, transporting earth from the Terrestrial region into the Telestial region, introducing chaos and agony and all kinds of afflictions . . .

  Adam and Eve are cast out . . .

EPOCH 4:

  the mortal history of the world as we know it . . .

EPOCH 5:

  the Second Coming, burning of the world by fire, transformation of earth back to the Terrestrial state . . .

  where there is no death and all is peaceful . . .

  where children are still being birthed and live to the "age of a tree" (100 years duration) and be quickened without tasting death . . .

Edited June 14, 2014 by longview

[mnn727]

So if there was no death before the fall, explain dinosaurs.

[K-2]

Wikipedia says that ants "evolved from wasp-like ancestors" and that this happened "between 110 and 130 million years ago." Were there any ants in the Garden of Eden? What if Adam or Eve had stepped on and crushed one? Would it be alive still? Would it be in a state like Schrodinger's Cat?

[cdowis]

Adam and Eve and all creation would have stayed in the state they were in after they were created because that is the only state in which they could remain, unchanged until the Fall. Before they were created, they were not created. They could not very well remain in an uncreated state until the Fall because they did not yet exist in a created state. This distinction has nothing to do with death or immortality. It has to do with existence or non-existence. Once everything was created, it then remained in that state in which it was created (immortal) until the Fall. There is no evidence here that the state of no death did not apply before Adam entered the garden. During the creative state there was neither death nor evolution because there was no change. Only after the Fall did change enter the world. And things have been changing ever since.

 

I do not think that you understand the creation process, as taught in the scriptures.  The earth was in a constant state of change, flux and development during that process -- going from chaos to organization during each stage or day of the creation.  Plants and animals did not appear thru "poof" but developed through the same natural means they do today, e.g. seeds to mature plants.

 

The Lord uses natural laws in the creation process, and there is no reason to exclude evolution as one of those natural laws.  The sixth day of creation was the crowning point and death was suspended until the Fall.

Edited June 14, 2014 by cdowis

[K-2]

It just occurred to me that a great many fruits, vegetables, nut trees, etc. rely on bees for pollination. Does this mean there were bees in the Garden of Eden? If not, how did the stuff they ate transfer pollen and reproduce? What if Adam or Eve had stepped on or swatted and crushed a bee?

[thesometimesaint]

According to the scriptures, the garden itself was a relatively small locality.

 

Perhaps the area covered by the state of no death was global and then after the Fall it shrunk to the small locality of the garden? The way back still had to be guarded by Cherubims and a flaming sword (Genesis 3:24).

 

Perhaps the garden was on the spaceship that brought Adam and the Fall was his being kicked off the ship?

 

Help me out here.  What are some of the possible explanations for a global state of no death?

 

I freely admit that it would be easier for my hypothesis if there were a local state of no death.  But perhaps a good explanation for a global state would help me breathe easier when I explain my hypothesis in the context of a global state.

 

It is rather hard to substantiate a global GoE with the idea that A&E were first formed THEN placed into the GoE.

[thesometimesaint]

 

This is NOT the only possible scenario.  What if earth was cobbled together with fragments of other dead planets?  There are teachings that indicate that the Lord has power to move earth from place to place.

 

Try this alternative timeline for size:

 

EPOCH 1:   (the previous generation of the Gods)

 

  various planets are formed to serve various purposes . . .

 

  not all of them are necessarily used for earth-like plan of salvation . . .

 

  layers on the planets are naturally formed by the usual geologic processes . . .

 

  some of the layers had conditions that ideal for preserving the "cast" of creatures that became part of the fossil record . . .

 

  not to say that macro evolution occurred on any of the planets (inter-species transitions) . . .

 

  some of these planets reach the end of their "lifespan" and die . . .

 

EPOCH 2:

 

  Hugh Nibley:  '. . . So we begin with an imponderable given quantity: "See, yonder is matter unorganized," or as the Book of Abraham puts it, "We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell." (Abraham 3:24.)'  See http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/I00073-Before_Adam.html

 

  Jehovah performs the formation of the earth in a region that is in "Terrestrial" state . . .

 

  using materials from the dead planets . . .

 

  where there is no death for any of the creatures . . .

 

  first the spirit entities are created and assigned (to their respective time on earth), then the physical . . .

 

  although there is no death, there is no overpopulation.  When a creature's stay on earth reaches a certain duration, it is transformed and sent to a different sphere (without tasting death) . . .

 

  these creatures were probably reproducing to replace those that pass on . . .

 

EPOCH 3:

 

  Abraham 5:

7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.  8 And the Gods planted a garden, eastward in Eden, and there they put the man, whose spirit they had put into the body which they had formed.

  although the creatures were reproducing, Adam and Eve could not have children . . .

 

  Adam and Eve "pull the trigger" to put the "Plan of Redemption" into effect by partaking of the Forbidden Fruit . . .

  thereby causing death to come upon the entire earth, the Fall of all nature, transporting earth from the Terrestrial region into the Telestial region, introducing chaos and agony and all kinds of afflictions . . .

  Adam and Eve are cast out . . .

EPOCH 4:

  the mortal history of the world as we know it . . .

EPOCH 5:

  the Second Coming, burning of the world by fire, transformation of earth back to the Terrestrial state . . .

  where there is no death and all is peaceful . . .

  where children are still being birthed and live to the "age of a tree" (100 years duration) and be quickened without tasting death . . .

 

So God destroys many many other planets full of life just to cobble together this one some six thousand years ago. Then makes it just look like he took billions of years to do it. Add in that about a thousand years later he gets unhappy with man and kills all life on this planet except for what can fit onto one small boat.

 

Does that mean if my 6 year old Grandson does something God doesn't like that God will kill the rest of my family. I'm not too sure I even like that God.

[Ahab]

The only problem is what were they cast out into and why (and literally how) was the way back under guard? That implies an unsettled doctrine as to whether or not the garden state was local.

However, I can go either way, local or global, and Evolution still fits just fine within the context of LDS doctrine.

Yes because the most natural and obvious reading of all scriptures we have... and we all know what scripture is and have been taught how to find out if it is true... reveal the following image:

All life on this planet was immortal when it was placed on this planet, which means that immortality is the natural state of all living beings, and it actually took some kind of miracle for death to be present and operative on this world, otherwise all living beings would have continued to live in the same state they were created in after they were created and the state they were created in was the state of all living beings when they are created which is a living state, rather than in a state of dieing.

Most of the world has been deluded into thinking that all living beings must die, as if death is a natural thing, but that's not what God has taught us, and it's not what we should believe.

[thesometimesaint]

Yes because the most natural and obvious reading of all scriptures we have... and we all know what scripture is and have been taught how to find out if it is true... reveal the following image:

All life on this planet was immortal when it was placed on this planet, which means that immortality is the natural state of all living beings, and it actually took some kind of miracle for death to be present and operative on this world, otherwise all living beings would have continued to live in the same state they were created in after they were created and the state they were created in was the state of all living beings when they are created which is a living state, rather than in a state of dieing.

Most of the world has been deluded into thinking that all living beings must die, as if death is a natural thing, but that's not what God has taught us, and it's not what we should believe.

 

I'm fine with the two creations accounts. The spiritual creation would of course be immortal. IE; Created in the mind of God. The physical creation would be how he did it.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Another un-winnable debate between literalist Mormons and non-literalist Mormons.

 

 

It's a pro-evidence vs wishful thinking debate.