BCSpace Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 It implies nothing of the kind. The scripture is abundantly clear that what was guarded by the cherubims and the flaming sword was the tree of life (Gen 3:22-24), not the garden as a whole. Incorrect. The verse says "and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, AND a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" I'm going with whole garden on this one. Adam and Eve and all creation would have stayed in the state they were in after they were created because that is the only state in which they could remain, unchanged until the Fall. Before they were created, they were not created. That's right. Evolution had not come to that point yet. They could not very well remain in an uncreated state until the Fall because they did not yet exist in a created state. This distinction has nothing to do with death or immortality. It has to do with existence or non-existence. The verses is speaking about all things, all creation in general, not just Adam. We know from official doctrine that plants and animals were here before Adam. Thus in this context, it is correct to see the difference, as the verse itself points out, between the creative and already created states. The later is the only one in which a property of no death is applied. This dovetails very well with other doctrine on the subject such as that on DC& 77.
BCSpace Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 All life on this planet was immortal when it was placed on this planet 2 Nephi 2:22 shows that this can be true only after the creation. Since the Church itself even admits it doesn't know what the creative process was, then if evolution is the creative process, death can exist before the process is complete and itself may even be part of that process.
MormonFreeThinker Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) Seminary Manual "It may be helpful to explain that the 7,000 years refers to the time since the Fall of Adam and Eve. It is not referring to the actual age of the earth including the periods of creation." https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-manual-2014/section-4/home-study-lesson-doctrine-and-covenants-76-81-119-77-83-unit-17?lang=eng Edited June 14, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker
halconero Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Yes because the most natural and obvious reading of all scriptures we have... and we all know what scripture is and have been taught how to find out if it is true... reveal the following image:All life on this planet was immortal when it was placed on this planet, which means that immortality is the natural state of all living beings, and it actually took some kind of miracle for death to be present and operative on this world, otherwise all living beings would have continued to live in the same state they were created in after they were created and the state they were created in was the state of all living beings when they are created which is a living state, rather than in a state of dieing.Most of the world has been deluded into thinking that all living beings must die, as if death is a natural thing, but that's not what God has taught us, and it's not what we should believe.All life must experience death, both physical and spiritual, so that they might experience resurrection.
ERayR Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 (edited) Yes because the most natural and obvious reading of all scriptures we have... and we all know what scripture is and have been taught how to find out if it is true... reveal the following image:All life on this planet was immortal when it was placed on this planet, which means that immortality is the natural state of all living beings, and it actually took some kind of miracle for death to be present and operative on this world, otherwise all living beings would have continued to live in the same state they were created in after they were created and the state they were created in was the state of all living beings when they are created which is a living state, rather than in a state of dieing.Most of the world has been deluded into thinking that all living beings must die, as if death is a natural thing, but that's not what God has taught us, and it's not what we should believe. This interpretation would certainly leave some of the temple ceremony, at the very least, in confusion. Edited June 15, 2014 by ERayR 1
Flyonthewall Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 So if there was no death before the fall, explain dinosaurs.Different world... a world that had passed away already. After that world passed away, the creation process for our world started... same planet, different world.
Zakuska Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 (edited) I've often wonder which death we are talking about. Spiritual or physical. there was no spirital death before the fall because everyone and everything enjoyed the presence of the Lord walking in the garden. Edited June 15, 2014 by Zakuska
Zakuska Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Yes because the most natural and obvious reading of all scriptures we have... and we all know what scripture is and have been taught how to find out if it is true... reveal the following image:All life on this planet was immortal when it was placed on this planet, which means that immortality is the natural state of all living beings, and it actually took some kind of miracle for death to be present and operative on this world, otherwise all living beings would have continued to live in the same state they were created in after they were created and the state they were created in was the state of all living beings when they are created which is a living state, rather than in a state of dieing.Most of the world has been deluded into thinking that all living beings must die, as if death is a natural thing, but that's not what God has taught us, and it's not what we should believe.well what state are plants created in? They are alive while seeds but they don't do much until water is added.
Calm Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Different world... a world that had passed away already. After that world passed away, the creation process for our world started... same planet, different world.So no life whatsoever? For what purpose then the previous creation?
Zakuska Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, andmultiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.How can you "re"plish something the had not been plenished priorly?
Rob Osborn Posted June 15, 2014 Author Posted June 15, 2014 The word replenish is properly defined as "to fill".
longview Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 So God destroys many many other planets full of life just to cobble together this one some six thousand years ago. Then makes it just look like he took billions of years to do it. Add in that about a thousand years later he gets unhappy with man and kills all life on this planet except for what can fit onto one small boat. Does that mean if my 6 year old Grandson does something God doesn't like that God will kill the rest of my family. I'm not too sure I even like that God.Not necessarily. There are probably many different classes of planets. Some get used up and die a "natural" death without being terminated by God. As I stated, my opinion is there are no inter-species transitions on any of those planets. Time-spans could be anywhere from a few thousand years to at most 100,000 years. Of course I am "speculating" which is what evolutionists do for the most part. Your last statement seems overwrought and hysterical. 1
thesometimesaint Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Not necessarily. There are probably many different classes of planets. Some get used up and die a "natural" death without being terminated by God. As I stated, my opinion is there are no inter-species transitions on any of those planets. Time-spans could be anywhere from a few thousand years to at most 100,000 years. Of course I am "speculating" which is what evolutionists do for the most part. Your last statement seems overwrought and hysterical. So different classes of planets with life on them get used up. What planets did the many long gone species of animals use up so God could somehow transport to make our planet? Exactly where are those planets with no inter-species transitions. Or is it just this planet that was formed from them? So nothing exists more than 100,000 years away from this planet? I'm fine with speculating. Go to your local library. You can spend many hours reading novels, Sci-Fi, even fantasy books like Lord of the Rings(One of my personal favorites). I'm not overwrought. I find such ideas patently silly. However do read the story of Noah as presented in the Bible. That God is a laugh a minute.
mnn727 Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Different world... a world that had passed away already. After that world passed away, the creation process for our world started... same planet, different world.That's not what scripture or the prophets or apostles have claimed.
Flyonthewall Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 So no life whatsoever? For what purpose then the previous creation?Sure there was life, it was teaming with life... that is where the fossil record come from. But the previous world has nothing to do with our world in regards to continuing life. When the previous world passed away, the slate was wiped clean. The previous world(s) provided our world with things like precious stones & metals, oil, natural gas, etc.
Bikeemikey Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Sure there was life, it was teaming with life... that is where the fossil record come from. But the previous world has nothing to do with our world in regards to continuing life. When the previous world passed away, the slate was wiped clean.The previous world(s) provided our world with things like precious stones & metals, oil, natural gas, etc.So your just toying with the semantics of "world/s"... I'm fine with that.Just take it a step further...Our "world" didn't start until evolution produced an "Adam and Eve". Once it did appropriate spirits were placed in said tabernacles and we have the last few thousand years :-)
thesometimesaint Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Sure there was life, it was teaming with life... that is where the fossil record come from. But the previous world has nothing to do with our world in regards to continuing life. When the previous world passed away, the slate was wiped clean.The previous world(s) provided our world with things like precious stones & metals, oil, natural gas, etc. You lost me there. Please clarify.
Flyonthewall Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 That's not what scripture or the prophets or apostles have claimed.The scriptures do say that there have been worlds that have already passed away. The scriptures do say that Adam was the first man of all men, and that there was no death before the fall. Apostles have echoed what the scriptures say. I am not claiming this is official doctrine of the church, but just my working theory...subject to modification as my understanding improves. I take what the Apostles and prophets have said, what the scriptures say, and what science claims, and try to connect the dots.
Flyonthewall Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 You lost me there. Please clarify.The best example I can think of is flipping a house. A landlord rents a house to a family. Over time they move out and the house lies empty. The landlord, makes renovations, using the existing structure, then a new family moves in. The first family has nothing to do with the subsequent family, but there are traces of the first family left in the house and property. 1
Flyonthewall Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 So your just toying with the semantics of "world/s"... I'm fine with that. Just take it a step further... Our "world" didn't start until evolution produced an "Adam and Eve". Once it did appropriate spirits were placed in said tabernacles and we have the last few thousand years :-)In my scnerio there is a disconnect from "evolution producing an Adam and Eve" and the "appropriate spirits were placed in said tabernacles". That disconnect is where the creation process as described in the scriptures took place.
MormonFreeThinker Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 The best example I can think of is flipping a house. A landlord rents a house to a family. Over time they move out and the house lies empty. The landlord, makes renovations, using the existing structure, then a new family moves in. The first family has nothing to do with the subsequent family, but there are traces of the first family left in the house and property. The problem with your theory is the Molecular Clock
Flyonthewall Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 The problem with your theory is the Molecular ClockWhy wouldn't the molecular clock keep ticking while the house lays empty?
MormonFreeThinker Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Why wouldn't the molecular clock keep ticking while the house lays empty? Molecular clock = House was never empty Molecular Clock - "a measure of evolutionary change over time at the molecular level that is based on the theory that specific DNA sequences or the proteins they encode spontaneously mutate at constant rates and that is used chiefly for estimating how long ago two related organisms diverged from a common ancestor" http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/molecular%20clock
Flyonthewall Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Molecular clock = House was never empty Molecular Clock - "a measure of evolutionary change over time at the molecular level that is based on the theory that specific DNA sequences or the proteins they encode spontaneously mutate at constant rates and that is used chiefly for estimating how long ago two related organisms diverged from a common ancestor" http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/molecular%20clockHow much time needs to pass for a measurable amount of evolutionary change to occur? 1000 years? 10k? 100k? 1M? To me, the period of time between one world passing and the next beginning does not need to be very long.
thesometimesaint Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 The best example I can think of is flipping a house. A landlord rents a house to a family. Over time they move out and the house lies empty. The landlord, makes renovations, using the existing structure, then a new family moves in. The first family has nothing to do with the subsequent family, but there are traces of the first family left in the house and property. Thanx.
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