thesometimesaint Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 How much time needs to pass for a measurable amount of evolutionary change to occur? 1000 years? 10k? 100k? 1M?To me, the period of time between one world passing and the next beginning does not need to be very long. Actually it can happen pretty quickly depending on species.SEE http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html#.U54TTSi9Ztg
longview Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 (edited) . . . I'm not overwrought. I find such ideas patently silly. However do read the story of Noah as presented in the Bible. That God is a laugh a minute. That is my point all along. We have NO way of knowing what processes God has used. It could be PROFOUNDLY elegant. It will make your jaw drop to the ground. I have no problem accepting the world wide flooding (total immersion) to destroy all human life save Noah's. It would be silly for anyone to think God fabricate evidence or hide traces of epochal events. We simply do not know what power God used to bring about His miracles. Why should you want to "dictate" to God what evidence He should leave for you to evaluate? How do you "explain" what process Jesus used to walk through walls? Or Jesus say "peace be still" and the raging storm suddenly cease? Do you think those things are silly myths? Unscientific? Why rule that out if God's "science" is many orders of magnitude greater than anything you can conceive in any of our current technologies or theories? Edited June 15, 2014 by longview
thesometimesaint Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 That is my point all along. We have NO way of knowing what processes God has used. It could be PROFOUNDLY elegant. It will make your jaw drop to the ground. I have no problem accepting the world wide flooding (total immersion) to destroy all human life save Noah's. It would be silly for anyone to think God fabricate evidence or hide traces of epochal events. We simply do not know what power God used to bring about His miracles. Why should you want to "dictate" to God what evidence He should leave for you to evaluate? How do you "explain" what process Jesus used to walk through walls? Do you think it is a silly myth? Unscientific? Why rule that out if God's "science" is many orders of magnitude greater than anything you can conceive in any of our current technologies or theories? Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.Galileo
ERayR Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 (edited) I'm not overwrought. I find such ideas patently silly. However do read the story of Noah as presented in the Bible. That God is a laugh a minute. Do you really consider the Bible is a Joke. Really. Or is only God you consider to be a joke. Edited June 15, 2014 by ERayR
thesometimesaint Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Do you really consider the Bible is a Joke. Really. Or is only God you consider to be a joke I consider some literal interpretations of the Bible to be a joke. I take God very seriously. The foibles of mortal men not so much. IE; Did our round like a ball earth suddenly get that way after about 33 CE? The Bible has Jesus going up a tall mountain and literally seeing all the nations of the earth at once. The Bible has all the world paying taxes to Caesar Augustus. I'm sure the Chinese and Nephites jumped at the command.
MormonFreeThinker Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 That is my point all along. We have NO way of knowing what processes God has used. Okay, fair enough, but I keep saying that still doesn't explain the orderly sequence of fossils (if you don't believe in Death before the Fall). "The ordering of the strata in the earth's crust just does not fit this picture. No traces of humans have ever been found in the same strata as dinosaur bones, for example" - Dr. Frank B. Salisbury, Maxwell Institute "orderly structure of these horizontally lying layers, with their fossils, argues strongly against the notion that the earth has been assembled, relatively recently, from the wreckage of earlier world" - Henry Eyring, Leader in the church and Father of an apostle "Henry Eyring, a leading scientist and a great teacher" - Elder Vaughn J Featherstone, Oct 1983 General Conference
CV75 Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) It was brought up in another thread that there is no official teaching by the church concerning "no death before the fall" on the entire earth. Of obvious implication here is that if there was no death upon the earth before the fall of Adam and Eve then evolution is false along with a lot of other related issues like the age of things, etc.Of course we also have to consider the meaning behind the words. For example, just as the impact of the Redemption was in effect long before Christ came, the Fall may have also been in effect long before Adam came since his future actions were to impact all life. And not all are born at once, or die at once, or are resurrected at once, so it seems reasonable that not all became mortal at once. Nevertheless, I don’t think such considerations necessarily implicate certain scientific observations as either true or false. Edited June 16, 2014 by CV75
Rob Osborn Posted June 16, 2014 Author Posted June 16, 2014 Of course we also have to consider the meaning behind the words. For example, just as the impact of the Redemption was in effect long before Christ came, the Fall may have also been in effect long before Adam came since his future actions were to impact all life. And not all are born at once, or die at once, or are resurrected at once, so it seems reasonable that not all became mortal at once. Nevertheless, I don’t think such considerations necessarily implicate certain scientific observations as either true or false. But it is Adam's actual eating of the fruit of the tree of good and evil that causes the fall of the creation into mortality. 1
longview Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.GalileoThis seems to be the "umpteenth" time you have put out this silly little quotation. Is this your way of copping out of a sincere response to my thoughtful questions? 1
MormonFreeThinker Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 This seems to be the "umpteenth" time you have put out this silly little quotation. Is this your way of copping out of a sincere response to my thoughtful questions? How about my thoughtful question? No one has answered it.
longview Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 Okay, fair enough, but I keep saying that still doesn't explain the orderly sequence of fossils (if you don't believe in Death before the Fall). "The ordering of the strata in the earth's crust just does not fit this picture. No traces of humans have ever been found in the same strata as dinosaur bones, for example" - Dr. Frank B. Salisbury, Maxwell Institute "orderly structure of these horizontally lying layers, with their fossils, argues strongly against the notion that the earth has been assembled, relatively recently, from the wreckage of earlier world" - Henry Eyring, Leader in the church and Father of an apostle "Henry Eyring, a leading scientist and a great teacher" - Elder Vaughn J Featherstone, Oct 1983 General Conference Could you kindly provide more specific reference (maybe a URL) to the middle two statements above? Thanks . . .
longview Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 How about my thoughtful question? No one has answered it. Another cop out. How about being specific . . .
thesometimesaint Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 This seems to be the "umpteenth" time you have put out this silly little quotation. Is this your way of copping out of a sincere response to my thoughtful questions? God is omnipotent. We are not. So we use science to see what God actually did.
ERayR Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) How about my thoughtful question? No one has answered it. Haven't seen any yet. Thoughtful that is. Edited June 16, 2014 by ERayR
CV75 Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) But it is Adam's actual eating of the fruit of the tree of good and evil that causes the fall of the creation into mortality.Yes, just as it is Christ's actual birth, mortal mission, atonement, death, and resurrection that cause the redemption of the creation into immortality and eternal life. Notice you described Adam's eating and the Fall in the present tense. Edited June 16, 2014 by CV75
Ahab Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 All life must experience death, both physical and spiritual, so that they might experience resurrection.Resurrection simply restores living beings to their pre-fall state (or estate}, at which point they are then back in the state they were in before they fell and will not (or will no longer) experience death, which they never would have experienced at all if they had not fallen before.Think of Christ as an example, if that helps you any at all. He was living and would have gone on living forever had he not fallen to a mortal state as Adam and Eve did, and they too would have gone on living forever if they had not fallen to the mortal state, just as birds and bees and whales and elephants and every other living being would have gone on living forever if they had not fallen to a mortal state. All life is in the state of the living, and will continue living forever, unless it falls, and falling isn't something that all living beings do or must go through by virtue if the fact that they are living beings. Falling must be superimposed on a living being, taking it from its natural state of living and living forever to a state it would not have experienced without someone or something superimposing a fall.Evolutionists have it backwards, thinking all living beings must die as if death is a natural result of living, and thinking it would take some kind of a miracle for a living being to go on living forever. But death is actually the miracle, a thing that would not naturally happen to a living being, with no being needing to be resurrected if it had not done something to cause death or had death superimposed on it.Just as with God, the natural state of all living beings is to go on living forever without ever having to die.
thesometimesaint Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 Resurrection simply restores living beings to their pre-fall state (or estate}, at which point they are then back in the state they were in before they fell and will not (or will no longer) experience death, which they never would have experienced at all if they had not fallen before.Think of Christ as an example, if that helps you any at all. He was living and would have gone on living forever had he not fallen to a mortal state as Adam and Eve did, and they too would have gone on living forever if they had not fallen to the mortal state, just as birds and bees and whales and elephants and every other living being would have gone on living forever if they had not fallen to a mortal state.All life is in the state of the living, and will continue living forever, unless it falls, and falling isn't something that all living beings do or must go through by virtue if the fact that they are living beings. Falling must be superimposed on a living being, taking it from its natural state of living and living forever to a state it would not have experienced without someone or something superimposing a fall.Evolutionists have it backwards, thinking all living beings must die as if death is a natural result of living, and thinking it would take some kind of a miracle for a living being to go on living forever. But death is actually the miracle, a thing that would not naturally happen to a living being, with no being needing to be resurrected if it had not done something to cause death or had death superimposed on it.Just as with God, the natural state of all living beings is to go on living forever without ever having to die. Live long enough and something is going to kill you.
CV75 Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 Resurrection simply restores living beings to their pre-fall state (or estate}, at which point they are then back in the state they were in before they fell and will not (or will no longer) experience death, which they never would have experienced at all if they had not fallen before.I don't expect the resurrection to restore me into a spirit, which is all I was before my pre-fall state. My post-fall state is all that I can be resurrected from. If "living" means a connected spirit and body, then the transition from their separate states to their united state is as much a death of their separated condition as their subsequent separation is a death of their united, connected state.
CV75 Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 Live long enough and something is going to kill you.Progress "kills" the former condition as the subject advances to his next condition.
MormonFreeThinker Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 Haven't seen any yet. Thoughtful that is. lol sure
thesometimesaint Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 Progress "kills" the former condition as the subject advances to his next condition. The former is a natural condition. The latter is a supernatural condition. Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
MormonFreeThinker Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) Could you kindly provide more specific reference (maybe a URL) to the middle two statements above? Thanks . . . "The ordering of the strata in the earth's crust just does not fit this picture. No traces of humans have ever been found in the same strata as dinosaur bones, for example" - Dr. Frank B. Salisbury, Maxwell Institute http://ash.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=18&num=1&id=610&cat_id=592 "orderly structure of these horizontally lying layers, with their fossils, argues strongly against the notion that the earth has been assembled, relatively recently, from the wreckage of earlier worlds" - Henry Eyring, Leader in the church and Father of an apostlehttp://emp.byui.edu/OTTS/Science_and_Religion/Documents%5CReflections_of_a_Scientist_by_Henry_Eyring.html "Both the scriptural record and the strata of the earth are two elements of God’s record...For many years I have personally studied evidences that show evolution has taken place throughout the history of life on earth"- Wade E. Miller, Ph.D. in paleontologyhttp://mormonscholarstestify.org/2132/wade-e-miller See the video Edited June 16, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker
CV75 Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 The former is a natural condition. The latter is a supernatural condition. Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:Naturally!
JLHPROF Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 God is omnipotent. We are not. So we use science to see what God actually did. God is omniscient we are not. So God did things that science can't understand or explain using their rules.
Rob Osborn Posted June 16, 2014 Author Posted June 16, 2014 Yes, just as it is Christ's actual birth, mortal mission, atonement, death, and resurrection that cause the redemption of the creation into immortality and eternal life. Notice you described Adam's eating and the Fall in the present tense.Let me correct- it was Adam's actual eating of the fruit of the tree of good and evil that caused the fall of the creation into mortality.
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