Baptism Of The Earth? Gospel Topics Article

[teddyaware]

It is not that God couldn't perform the miracle if he wanted, it is the lack of evidence that he did it that is problematic IMO.

I don't see anywhere in the scriptures where God performs miracles and then removes all traces of them.

Where is the resurrected body of Christ? Where is the city of Enoch (or at least its foundations)? Why didn't God leave the Red Sea spread wide open for all to see and admire? Where is the Liahona? Where is the rod of Aaron? Where is the evidence there was a day, a night and a day in ancient America when there was uninterrupted daylight? Where is the handwriting on the wall that made king Belshazzar tremble with fear?

 

Let me ponder this one for a while and I'm confident I'll come back with a much longer list. Perhaps others can join in and well see how long of a list we can make. 

Edited May 21, 2014 by teddyaware

[Rob Osborn]

Not all opinions are of equal value. Appealing to the Supernatural doesn't help your cause. It took a Saturn 5 rocket to launch just 3 men to the moon. How big of a rocket would it take to launch a whole city and surrounding land into Heaven? As to what I believe the Scriptures. I just have no way to Barium Carbon Potassium Thorium Astatine Uranium Phosphorus.

 

If the Flood covered the entire globe it covered the oceans too.

 

Take your pick.

 

Genesis 7:17

And the flood was forty days upon the earth.

 

Genesis 7:24

And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

 

Genesis 8:3

And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the one hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

So the waters were 150 days on the earth. How does that make it impossible for plant life to come back?

[The Nehor]

I've said it before and so now I'll say it again: Until scientifically inclined members of the Church acknowledge that the God of Mormonism has miraculous power (the same kind of miraculous power that in the twinkling of an eye will raise from the dead many millions of immortal superhumans) the sort of unending controversy we see demonstrated on this thread will never ever be satisfactorily resolved.

I can just imagine some scientist born near the end of the millennium, who never actually personally witnesses someone being raised from the dead, arguing adnauseum that the resurrection of the dead is a scientific impossibility and that all those who claim to be resurrected, or who believe in the resurrection, are deluded adherents to a system of superstitious nonsense. You think it's impossible? Laman and Lemuel actually saw an angel who forthrightly told them God had chosen their younger brother Nephi to rule over them, yet they ignored the angel who testified of their brother's primacy and of the miraculous power of God.

If in the wink of an eye God can resurrect (from inanimate dust, no less) a race of millions upon millions of highly-advanced, immortal human beings, the miraculous execution of a worldwide flood should have been mere child's play for the Lord by comparison. Yet I'm quite certain the scientifically inclined Latter-day Saints will continue to minimize the possibility of miraculous explanations for the scripturally documented miracles of God. My point is that the scientifically inclined don't have to discard all they believe through science, but that there should at very least be an acknowledgement -- no matter how grudging -- that the miraculous power of God may have (for instance) played a role in an event like the great flood.

Of course God could do it. The problem is that all evidence shows He did not. Your comparison to the Millenium scientist does not fit. There is nothing there to study after a resurrection. Drowning the earth would leave evidence. I also believe God could hide the evidence of such a deluge if He wanted to but why would He want to? Being skeptical that you saw an angel is just doubting your word. Being skeptical of the flood is saying I see nothing to support it and in fact see things that show that it never happened.

This is not an objection because I believe God is powerless. I just see no reason for Him to hide his handiwork the way He appears to have done if there was a global flood.

[teddyaware]

Of course God could do it. The problem is that all evidence shows He did not. Your comparison to the Millenium scientist does not fit. There is nothing there to study after a resurrection. Drowning the earth would leave evidence. I also believe God could hide the evidence of such a deluge if He wanted to but why would He want to? Being skeptical that you saw an angel is just doubting your word. Being skeptical of the flood is saying I see nothing to support it and in fact see things that show that it never happened.

This is not an objection because I believe God is powerless. I just see no reason for Him to hide his handiwork the way He appears to have done if there was a global flood.

"Houston, we have a problem..."

In light of the Book of Moses, it seems quite unlikely that the flood was localized because God covenanted with both Enoch and Noah that He would never again destroy the earth by flood; and since that time there have been many horrific, localized floods, like the widespread, catastrophic tsunami that hit planet earth in 2004. So if the flood of Noah's day was localized, then God did not keep his promise and this would make God a liar...

50 And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be covered by the floods.

51 And the Lord could not withhold; and he covenanted with Enoch, and sware unto him with an oath, that he would stay the floods; that he would call upon the children of Noah; (Moses 7)

Then we have to contend with the following...

 

27 And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God, as did also his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

28 The earth was corrupt before God, and it was filled with violence.

29 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth.

30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth. (Moses 8:27-30)

As for the notion that in the Millennial World the evidence for God's works will be too obvious to be denied, I supply the following quote from one of this board's favorite Apostles:

"During the Millennium, Satan is bound. Because of the righteousness of the people, he has no power over them. “And when the thousand years are expired,” John tells us, “Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.” (Rev. 20:7.) This means that once again men will begin to give heed to his enticements. Satan was bound among the Nephites during their golden era. None of the people were then subject to his wiles; all lived in righteousness, and all were saved. But in A.D. 201, “there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world. And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them. And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ.” (4 Ne. 1:24-26.) Soon there were persecution, crime, murder, and evil of every sort. So shall it be at the end of the Millennium. Men will begin again, gradually, to partake of the things of this world; pride and carnality and crime will commence anew; true believers will be persecuted and false churches will arise. Satan will be loosed because he is no longer bound by the righteousness of the people. (The Millennial Messiah, Bruce R. McConkie)

Edited May 21, 2014 by teddyaware

[cinepro]

I don't see anywhere in the scriptures where God performs miracles and then removes all traces of them.

 

What miracle has God performed and not removed all traces of?

 

Here's one:  Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden.  As has been discussed elsewhere ad nauseum, the present condition of the world and the physical layout of the human body is exactly what we would expect to see if everything had developed according to an evolutionary process over the eons, and the insertion of Adam and Eve into the gene pool and the creation of a paradisical Garden* in which immortal beings lived had no discernible effect.

 

*Yes, the Church teaches that the entire planet was created in a paradisical state, but this is a hat tip to the limited-Garden theorizers.

Edited May 21, 2014 by cinepro

[Calm]

I should have said evidence left behind contradicts the occurrence.

[Rob Osborn]

Not sure if people are aware but if there was a global flood one would expect to find very thick sedimentary layers all over the earth with dea things that are in those sediment layers. Then one would also see evidence where large bodies of water escaping off those layers of upthrust would create all different types of eroded rocks....

Yep- just exactly what we see all over the earth!

[thesometimesaint]

Not sure if people are aware but if there was a global flood one would expect to find very thick sedimentary layers all over the earth with dea things that are in those sediment layers. Then one would also see evidence where large bodies of water escaping off those layers of upthrust would create all different types of eroded rocks....

Yep- just exactly what we see all over the earth!

 

The problem is Rob is that there is evidence of layering all over the earth. Many many layers, few of which occurred at the same time and none of which correspond to a global flood at the proposed time of Noah. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=sedimentary+layers&client=firefox-a&hs=kN3&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=g5Z9U5fHEI2EogTBkIDYCg&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=579

 

And here is how

[Anijen]

I look at my 4G smart phone and I am in awe over all its capabilities and I probably only know and use perhaps 5% of all its capabilities. Is it not a Liahona? Would it not be perceived as a miraculous object of exceedingly fine workmanship in the days of Lehi?

 

 

I recognize that Heavenly Father has great and miraculous powers and that at the Saviors coming many will be resurrected and changed in a twinkling of an eye. I do not know how He will accomplish this, just as Lehi did not know how the Liahona was made, but it was made.

 

 

I personally want that day to come soon, tomorrow would be pretty cool.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Anijen

[thesometimesaint]

I look at my 4G smart phone and I am in awe over all its capabilities and I probably only know and use perhaps 5% of all its capabilities. Is it not a Liahona? Would it not be perceived as a miraculous object of exceedingly fine workmanship in the days of Lehi?

 

 

I recognize that Heavenly Father has great and miraculous powers and that at the Saviors coming many will be resurrected and changed in a twinkling of an eye. I do not know how He will accomplish this, just as Lehi did not know how the Liahona was made, but it was made.

 

 

I personally want that day to come soon, tomorrow would be pretty cool.

 

I'm no Luddite and I have a Smart Phone. I still just use it to make phone calls.

[Rob Osborn]

The problem is Rob is that there is evidence of layering all over the earth. Many many layers, few of which occurred at the same time and none of which correspond to a global flood at the proposed time of Noah. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=sedimentary+layers&client=firefox-a&hs=kN3&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=g5Z9U5fHEI2EogTBkIDYCg&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=579

 

And here is how

How do you get two or more layers to relatively lay parallel with each other not lay down at the same time?

[thesometimesaint]

So the waters were 150 days on the earth. How does that make it impossible for plant life to come back?

 

Why not 40 days, or an average of 95 days, or some other time frame? It is impossible to decide which is correct from the Bible. So we have to make assumptions, and the extrapolate from those assumptions.

 

As to why it is impossible for plant life to come back. Plants covered for 150 days don't survive. Mud isn't the preferred medium for most plants to grow in.

• Many plants (seeds and all) would be killed by being submerged for a few months. This is especially true if they were soaked in salt water. Some mangroves, coconuts, and other coastal species have seed which could be expected to survive the Flood itself, but what of the rest?
• Most seeds would have been buried under many feet (even miles) of sediment. This is deep enough to prevent spouting.
• Most plants require established soils to grow--soils which would have been stripped by the Flood.
• Some plants germinate only after being exposed to fire or after being ingested by animals; these conditions would be rare (to put it mildly) after the Flood.
• Noah could not have gathered seeds for all plants because not all plants produce seeds, and a variety of plant seeds can't survive a year before germinating. [Garwood, 1989; Benzing, 1990; Densmore & Zasada, 1983] Also, how did he distribute them all over the world?

Also salt accumulations make plant life on land more tenuous. IE; The Mesopotamia region was once extremely fertile. Repeated irrigation with water containing salts built up in the soil. This lead to crop failures and finally civilization failures when dry weather inevitably returns.  

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-170-98/

[Tacenda]

http://www.ldsmag.com/article/1/14059  In Defense of the Prophet Noah and the Great Flood

 

I don't know if this has been shared, but it sure backs up Ron and sure sounds like the LDS do also.  Something to think about. 

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.ldsmag.com/article/1/14059  In Defense of the Prophet Noah and the Great Flood

 

I don't know if this has been shared, but it sure backs up Ron and sure sounds like the LDS do also.  Something to think about. 

 

Withe the Meridian E Magazine n hand you'll never want for moonshine.

[Rob Osborn]

The article is a bit off in a few things. Its sad that those who write about global flood believers can't even do the research to understand how they believe the global flood happened.

[Rob Osborn]

Why not 40 days, or an average of 95 days, or some other time frame? It is impossible to decide which is correct from the Bible. So we have to make assumptions, and the extrapolate from those assumptions.

 

As to why it is impossible for plant life to come back. Plants covered for 150 days don't survive. Mud isn't the preferred medium for most plants to grow in.

• Many plants (seeds and all) would be killed by being submerged for a few months. This is especially true if they were soaked in salt water. Some mangroves, coconuts, and other coastal species have seed which could be expected to survive the Flood itself, but what of the rest?
• Most seeds would have been buried under many feet (even miles) of sediment. This is deep enough to prevent spouting.
• Most plants require established soils to grow--soils which would have been stripped by the Flood.
• Some plants germinate only after being exposed to fire or after being ingested by animals; these conditions would be rare (to put it mildly) after the Flood.
• Noah could not have gathered seeds for all plants because not all plants produce seeds, and a variety of plant seeds can't survive a year before germinating. [Garwood, 1989; Benzing, 1990; Densmore & Zasada, 1983] Also, how did he distribute them all over the world?

Also salt accumulations make plant life on land more tenuous. IE; The Mesopotamia region was once extremely fertile. Repeated irrigation with water containing salts built up in the soil. This lead to crop failures and finally civilization failures when dry weather inevitably returns.  

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-170-98/

 

 

So, we are not sure how long the earth or some parts of it were completely submerged. We also do not know what seeds Noah had with him. We also do not know the salinity of the water. We also do not know how plant life re-emerged after the flood. These variables do not rule out impossibility but rather open doors to possibilities. Here is an article-https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/how-did-plants-survive-the-flood/

[thesometimesaint]

So, we are not sure how long the earth or some parts of it were completely submerged. We also do not know what seeds Noah had with him. We also do not know the salinity of the water. We also do not know how plant life re-emerged after the flood. These variables do not rule out impossibility but rather open doors to possibilities. Here is an article-https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/how-did-plants-survive-the-flood/

 

There is no way to know from Genesis how long the entire globe was under some 40 feet of salt water.

 

Take ocean water add in roughly an equal amount of fresh water and it is still salty water.

 

Many many seeds do not survive not being planted for over a year.

 

Most plants and/or their seeds don't survive salty water

 

Many seeds require fire to reproduce.

 

Some species of plants require a specific species of insect to reproduce.

 

Many species of plants do not reproduce by producing seeds. IE; The humble desert banana we eat today is the result of vegetative cloning and wasn't around during Noah's time.

 

I'm fine with not knowing. What I can't do is say how Noah did it. The Super Evolution of plants required by a Global Flood during Noah's times dwarfs that needed for animal life.

 

Answers in Genesis is the hobby horse of Ken Ham, and is about as real as his coconut eating T-Rex being ridden by Adam and Eve "Creationist Museum".

[Rob Osborn]

There is no way to know from Genesis how long the entire globe was under some 40 feet of salt water.

 

Take ocean water add in roughly an equal amount of fresh water and it is still salty water.

 

Many many seeds do not survive not being planted for over a year.

 

Most plants and/or their seeds don't survive salty water

 

Many seeds require fire to reproduce.

 

Some species of plants require a specific species of insect to reproduce.

 

Many species of plants do not reproduce by producing seeds. IE; The humble desert banana we eat today is the result of vegetative cloning and wasn't around during Noah's time.

 

I'm fine with not knowing. What I can't do is say how Noah did it. The Super Evolution of plants required by a Global Flood during Noah's times dwarfs that needed for animal life.

 

Answers in Genesis is the hobby horse of Ken Ham, and is about as real as his coconut eating T-Rex being ridden by Adam and Eve "Creationist Museum".

So, basically you dont know. Neither do I. All we know is that it happened regardless of what godless science thinks.

[thesometimesaint]

So, basically you dont know. Neither do I. All we know is that it happened regardless of what godless science thinks.

 

No one can know from the information given in Genesis. People get sick and die regardless of what Agnostic science thinks about the causes of how people get sick and die. It was God that caused them to get sick and die.

Edited May 23, 2014 by thesometimesaint