Baptism Of The Earth? Gospel Topics Article

[Rob Osborn]

I have no problem with people believing anything they want.

 

I trust the words of the prophets. Like "A Prophet is Only A Prophet when Acting as Such", and "Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine".

 

CFR that a planet can have sex.

 

CFR that nonhuman objects need baptism.

 

CFR that we literally die at baptism.

 

Are the Lamanites the main ancestors of the American Indians? Do axeheads float? If I go to the top of a tall mountain can I see every nation on this planet? Where can I find a cockatrice? Are bats birds? How many laborers did it take to build Salomon's stable's? Will I see better if I rub spit in my eyes? Is our planet at the center of the solar system? Can I stop the sun in its path by holding up my arms? Does water have weight? Do salt water fish live in fresh water? Where did Noah put the million species of insects on his boat? How many Trilobites were there? What is Gopher Wood? Did Noah ride around on dinosaurs? Did Unicorns not make it onto his boat?

 

I'm fine with God teaching me doctrine and science without error. Human's not so much.

 

I know that Noah was a prophet of God; He built a boat trying to save as much as he could. That he accurately recorded what he saw; A massive albeit regional flood. That time and constant retelling of his story has altered what was meant to be a morality story into a literal event devoid of meaning beyond a psychopathic God. What type of parent deliberately drowns their children in a tub of water?

 

As we all do. Well I have so sign off now. Gotta get some sleep so I can take my grandnephew through the Temple for his first time.

God warned the people a 120 years in advance. The people were wicked. The righteous were caught up by the powers of heaven to Zion while those who remained were drowned. God has always warned his children to repent or be destroyed. Don't like it? Then find some other religion.

[thesometimesaint]

God warned the people a 120 years in advance. The people were wicked. The righteous were caught up by the powers of heaven to Zion while those who remained were drowned. God has always warned his children to repent or be destroyed. Don't like it? Then find some other religion.

 

I'll stay right where I am.

[David T]

I think there's a difference between 'Church Doctrine' and material that is deemed consistent with Church Doctrine. When the details of something are not settled, and if it falls in-between the lines of what is acceptable, we're likely to see that published in the Ensign. I see what it is in the Ensign articles as consistent with present Church doctrine, but not defining the boundaries themselves.

[Opinion Slayer]

God warned the people a 120 years in advance. The people were wicked. The righteous were caught up by the powers of heaven to Zion while those who remained were drowned. God has always warned his children to repent or be destroyed. Don't like it? Then find some other religion.

 

I have no problem with people believing anything they want.

 

I trust the words of the prophets. Like "A Prophet is Only A Prophet when Acting as Such", and "Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine".

 

CFR that a planet can have sex.

 

CFR that nonhuman objects need baptism.

 

CFR that we literally die at baptism.

 

Are the Lamanites the main ancestors of the American Indians? Do axeheads float? If I go to the top of a tall mountain can I see every nation on this planet? Where can I find a cockatrice? Are bats birds? How many laborers did it take to build Salomon's stable's? Will I see better if I rub spit in my eyes? Is our planet at the center of the solar system? Can I stop the sun in its path by holding up my arms? Does water have weight? Do salt water fish live in fresh water? Where did Noah put the million species of insects on his boat? How many Trilobites were there? What is Gopher Wood? Did Noah ride around on dinosaurs? Did Unicorns not make it onto his boat?

 

I'm fine with God teaching me doctrine and science without error. Human's not so much.

 

I know that Noah was a prophet of God; He built a boat trying to save as much as he could. That he accurately recorded what he saw; A massive albeit regional flood. That time and constant retelling of his story has altered what was meant to be a morality story into a literal event devoid of meaning beyond a psychopathic God. What type of parent deliberately drowns their children in a tub of water?

 

As we all do. Well I have so sign off now. Gotta get some sleep so I can take my grandnephew through the Temple for his first time.

I trust the words of the prophets. Like "A Prophet is Only A Prophet when Acting as Such"

Guess what? When a prophet is teaching doctrine he is acting as such. When he is talking about space travel not so much. 

I don't know what CFR represents so I can't comment on that. The fact that you have questions like these " What is Gopher Wood? Did Noah ride around on dinosaurs? Did Unicorns not make it onto his boat?" Lets me know where you are intellectually and statements like these " his story has altered what was meant to be a morality story into a literal event devoid of meaning beyond a psychopathic God. What type of parent deliberately drowns their children in a tub of water?" Lets me know where you are spiritually. Your myopic view about physical death vs spiritual death is very sad. I would explain it to you but I don't cast pearls to swine. I'm happy for your grandfather though, good for him!

[thesometimesaint]

I trust the words of the prophets. Like "A Prophet is Only A Prophet when Acting as Such"

Guess what? When a prophet is teaching doctrine he is acting as such. When he is talking about space travel not so much. 

I don't know what CFR represents so I can't comment on that. The fact that you have questions like these " What is Gopher Wood? Did Noah ride around on dinosaurs? Did Unicorns not make it onto his boat?" Lets me know where you are intellectually and statements like these " his story has altered what was meant to be a morality story into a literal event devoid of meaning beyond a psychopathic God. What type of parent deliberately drowns their children in a tub of water?" Lets me know where you are spiritually. Your myopic view about physical death vs spiritual death is very sad. I would explain it to you but I don't cast pearls to swine. I'm happy for your grandfather though, good for him!

 

Doctrine is not established by just one man. At least not in this Church.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

 

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or diplomas to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

SEE https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

 

CFR means Call For References.

 

Intellectually I am at the same place I've always been at. I ask questions. It's known as the Socratic Method

 

I'm fine with a belief in both.

 

It is my Grandnephew. He leaves on his Mission in next week.

[cinepro]

You can't prove that all 15 apostles have taught that the Flood was Global.

"The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve." 

Elder Neil L. Anderson, "Trial of Your Faith," Ensign

Just so I'm clear, are you saying something isn't doctrine unless it has been taught (publicly and officially, I would presume) by all 15 Apostles?

I'm also assuming that you would argue they had to teach it while they were an Apostle (so something President Monson said in a talk as a Deacon wouldn't count).

This would mean that on April 4, 2009, when Elder Andersen was called as an Apostle, the Church was completely without doctrine, and only the things he had taught since then, officially and publicly (and reinforced by similar statements by his 14 apostolic brethren) can be considered doctrine. 

 

What an odd system the Lord has put in place, where the doctrine is completely rebooted every time a new Apostle is called.  I wonder if they are aware of the power they have to shape what is and isn't "doctrine" by simply not mentioning something in the course of their talks. 

 

[MormonFreeThinker]

Just so I'm clear, are you saying something isn't doctrine unless it has been taught (publicly and officially, I would presume) by all 15 Apostles?

I'm also assuming that you would argue they had to teach it while they were an Apostle (so something President Monson said in a talk as a Deacon wouldn't count).

This would mean that on April 4, 2009, when Elder Andersen was called as an Apostle, the Church was completely without doctrine, and only the things he had taught since then, officially and publicly (and reinforced by similar statements by his 14 apostolic brethren) can be considered doctrine. 

 

What an odd system the Lord has put in place, where the doctrine is completely rebooted every time a new Apostle is called.  I wonder if they are aware of the power they have to shape what is and isn't "doctrine" by simply not mentioning something in the course of their talks. 

 

 

"ust so I'm clear, are you saying something isn't doctrine unless it has been taught (publicly and officially, I would presume) by all 15 Apostles?"

 

Not necessarily, but it counts as evidence. All the 15 teach important principles, and that is evidence that they are doctrine.

I already explained what is doctrine in Mormon Doctrine topic 

 

There are not a lot of statements about a Global Flood anyways      

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Global_or_local_Flood/Statement

 

and "worldwide flood" can simply mean the world of Noah, I already presented evidence for that. 

Edited May 9, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[ERayR]

I have no problem with people believing anything they want.

 

I trust the words of the prophets. Like "A Prophet is Only A Prophet when Acting as Such", and "Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine".

 

CFR that a planet can have sex.

 

CFR that nonhuman objects need baptism.

 

CFR that we literally die at baptism.

 

Are the Lamanites the main ancestors of the American Indians? Do axeheads float? If I go to the top of a tall mountain can I see every nation on this planet? Where can I find a cockatrice? Are bats birds? How many laborers did it take to build Salomon's stable's? Will I see better if I rub spit in my eyes? Is our planet at the center of the solar system? Can I stop the sun in its path by holding up my arms? Does water have weight? Do salt water fish live in fresh water? Where did Noah put the million species of insects on his boat? How many Trilobites were there? What is Gopher Wood? Did Noah ride around on dinosaurs? Did Unicorns not make it onto his boat?

 

I'm fine with God teaching me doctrine and science without error. Human's not so much.

 

I know that Noah was a prophet of God; He built a boat trying to save as much as he could. That he accurately recorded what he saw; A massive albeit regional flood. That time and constant retelling of his story has altered what was meant to be a morality story into a literal event devoid of meaning beyond a psychopathic God. What type of parent deliberately drowns their children in a tub of water?

 

As we all do. Well I have so sign off now. Gotta get some sleep so I can take my grandnephew through the Temple for his first time.

 

It is so much fun to watch an ardent disciple from the science club and an ardent member of the Bible club vigorously defend the extremities of both disciplines.  Have at it.

[ERayR]

"

and "worldwide flood" can simply mean the world of Noah, I already presented evidence for that. 

 

And it can mean something else too.  It depends on how you interpret the data (facts).  See previous post.

[ERayR]

So was the teaching that "Lamanites are the principle ancestors" church doctrine?

 

You can't prove that all 15 apostles have taught that the Flood was Global.

"The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve." 

Elder Neil L. Anderson, "Trial of Your Faith," Ensign

 

Actually "You can't prove that all 15 apostles have taught that the Flood was Global." is a poor argument because you can't actually "prove" any of it.  One receives personal revelation which is valid for just that one person.  Others may choose to accept their testimony but that in itself is not proof.

Edited May 9, 2014 by ERayR

[Rob Osborn]

"ust so I'm clear, are you saying something isn't doctrine unless it has been taught (publicly and officially, I would presume) by all 15 Apostles?"

 

Not necessarily, but it counts as evidence. All the 15 teach important principles, and that is evidence that they are doctrine.

I already explained what is doctrine in Mormon Doctrine topic 

 

There are not a lot of statements about a Global Flood anyways      

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Global_or_local_Flood/Statement

 

and "worldwide flood" can simply mean the world of Noah, I already presented evidence for that.

But the world was flooded and written about it from Moses who himself saw the whole earth in vision. Enoch, Noah and Moses all knew first hand from vision the whole earth was or would be flooded. Besides that, the promise was made with Enoch that after the flood of Noah God would never send another flood to cover the entire earth. If it was only a localized flood then God's promise has been broken over and over again. The scriptures are very clear that the whole earth, not just a part of it, was covered by the flood waters.

[thesometimesaint]

It is so much fun to watch an ardent disciple from the science club and an ardent member of the Bible club vigorously defend the extremities of both disciplines.  Have at it.

 

Science isn't a club, and I believe the Scriptures are the word of God as far as they are translated correctly.

[cinepro]

There are not a lot of statements about a Global Flood anyways      

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Global_or_local_Flood/Statement

 

 

 

Your link simply says:

 

There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page.

 

If you need some statements that have been published in official Church publications, you can look here:

 

http://blog.mediumcouncil.org/?p=185

[Opinion Slayer]

Doctrine is not established by just one man. At least not in this Church.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

 

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or diplomas to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

SEE https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

 

CFR means Call For References.

 

Intellectually I am at the same place I've always been at. I ask questions. It's known as the Socratic Method

 

I'm fine with a belief in both.

 

It is my Grandnephew. He leaves on his Mission in next week.

CFR that a planet can have sex.- Here you go holmes I'm going to keep it simple for you and just use some scriptures. She is "the mother of men" who spoke to Enoch (Moses 7:48). She "opened her mouth" to receive the blood of murdered Abel (Moses 5:36). Eventually she will have "travailed and brought forth her strength" until "she is clothed with the glory of God" (D&C 84:101).

 

CFR that nonhuman objects need baptism.- I'll use the words of an apostle of the Lord.

 Orson Pratt

Another great change happened nearly two thousand years after the earth was made. It was baptized by water. A great flow of water come, the great deep was broken up, the windows of heaven were opened from on high, and the waters prevailed upon the face of the earth, sweeping away all wickedness and transgression-a similitude of baptism for the remission of sins. God requires the children of men to be baptized. What for? For the remission of sins. So he required our globe to be baptized by a flow of waters, and all of its sins were washed away, not one sin remaining.

—Orson Pratt, (August 1, 1880) Journal of Discourses 21:323.

 

"Intellectually I am at the same place I've always been at"  That's the problem you are not progressing... The good news is you got  time.

 

"Doctrine is not established by just one man. At least not in this Church.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine" - The link below is the opinion of the Lords church

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/flood-at-noahs-time

 

Here are other prophets that held the keys that taught the same principles. 

 

Brigham Young

This earth, in its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides the law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon.

—Brigham Young, (June 12, 1860) Journal of Discourses 8:83.

 

 

John Taylor

Some people talk very philosophically about tidal waves coming along. But the question is—How could you get a tidal wave out of the Pacific ocean, say, to cover the Sierra Nevadas? But the Bible does not tell us it was a tidal wave. It simply tells us that "all the high hills that were under the whole heaven were covered. Fifteen cubits upwards did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered." That is, the earth was immersed. It was a period of baptism.

—John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 26:74-75..

 

Gordon B. Hinckley

Those of us who read and believe the scriptures are aware of the warnings of prophets concerning catastrophes that have come to pass and are yet to come to pass. There was the great Flood, when waters covered the earth and when, as Peter says, only “eight souls were saved” (1 Pet. 3:20). 

—Gordon B. Hinckley, “If Ye Are Prepared Ye Shall Not Fear,” Ensign, Nov 2005, 60 off-site

 

It's a beautiful doctrine!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I had enough, so here are my final thoughts.  

 

So unnecessary.

[Tiki]

 

Apparently, God promised never to send another localized flood. See Genesis 9:15.
Tell that to Moon River.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Tiki

[Tacenda]

I have no problem with people believing anything they want.

I trust the words of the prophets. Like "A Prophet is Only A Prophet when Acting as Such", and "Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine".

CFR that a planet can have sex.

CFR that nonhuman objects need baptism.

CFR that we literally die at baptism.

Are the Lamanites the main ancestors of the American Indians? Do axeheads float? If I go to the top of a tall mountain can I see every nation on this planet? Where can I find a cockatrice? Are bats birds? How many laborers did it take to build Salomon's stable's? Will I see better if I rub spit in my eyes? Is our planet at the center of the solar system? Can I stop the sun in its path by holding up my arms? Does water have weight? Do salt water fish live in fresh water? Where did Noah put the million species of insects on his boat? How many Trilobites were there? What is Gopher Wood? Did Noah ride around on dinosaurs? Did Unicorns not make it onto his boat?

I'm fine with God teaching me doctrine and science without error. Human's not so much.

I know that Noah was a prophet of God; He built a boat trying to save as much as he could. That he accurately recorded what he saw; A massive albeit regional flood. That time and constant retelling of his story has altered what was meant to be a morality story into a literal event devoid of meaning beyond a psychopathic God. What type of parent deliberately drowns their children in a tub of water?

As we all do. Well I have so sign off now. Gotta get some sleep so I can take my grandnephew through the Temple for his first time.

I'm so embarrassed that when I was in a Primary Presidency I taught the story of Noah's Ark to those children, fully believing every word, I wonder how many teachers were cringing in their seats.

[Rob Osborn]

I'm so embarrassed that when I was in a Primary Presidency I taught the story of Noah's Ark to those children, fully believing every word, I wonder how many teachers were cringing in their seats.

And yet to think, I feel so not embarrassed when in the past I have taught 8-9year olds, 11-14 year olds and adults the truth and reality of the flood. I find it interesting that even in our church we can have stark different beliefs.

BTW, most LDS believe the flood was global so you shouldn't feel embarrassed.

[MormonFreeThinker]

BTW, most LDS believe the flood was global 

 

and my hope is that more members embrace science and become open about the local flood theory. The local flood has some problems, not that many, and not that big. 

 

"Rain isnt water that immerses and completely covers the earth."

Rain can completely cover the Earth, look at this mountain, it's completely covered by water. 

 

BTW, "In the New Testament, Paul speaks of the children of Israel being baptized by Moses “in the cloud and in the sea” (1 Cor. 10:1–4)." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/baptism

 

[Opinion Slayer]

I'm so embarrassed that when I was in a Primary Presidency I taught the story of Noah's Ark to those children, fully believing every word, I wonder how many teachers were cringing in their seats.

I'm embarrassed for you that you are embarrassed to teach true doctrine. It's actually sad really.

[Opinion Slayer]

I'm embarrassed for you that you are embarrassed to teach true doctrine. It's actually sad really.

I'm glad the church isn't embarrassed.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/flood-at-noahs-time

[thesometimesaint]

1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

[cinepro]

I'm so embarrassed that when I was in a Primary Presidency I taught the story of Noah's Ark to those children, fully believing every word, I wonder how many teachers were cringing in their seats.

 

For some, it's more embarrassing that the Church still teaches it.  But you didn't do anything wrong.

[cinepro]

 

Apparently, God promised never to send another localized flood. See Genesis 9:15.

Tell that to Moon River.

 

I'm speechless.  I've pointed out that problem with the local-flood theory before, but I can't believe someone actually illustrated it!

[MormonFreeThinker]

I'm speechless.  I've pointed out that problem with the local-flood theory before, but I can't believe someone actually illustrated it!

 

The Local Flood theory has some problems, but that is not one of them. 

See http://www.oldearth.org/broken_promise.htm

 

The Global Flood theory has millions of problems