What's Name Of Video On Conference Day

[MormonFreeThinker]

The Book of Mormon events probably did not happen in the USA 

[Calm]

Is there a place online where I can see the video "scriptures legacy"

Maybe BYU/tv. Haven't looked there yet, but I couldn't find it on lds.org and the clips that Meldrum put up and has apparently been asked to take down are very short.

Their search function didn't pull it up.

I would suggest writing byutv and ask if they are going to reshow it or maybe the contact info on the conference page...or maybe Scott can ask around and see if he can find out, pretty please.

Edited April 18, 2014 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

You would need to speak to Greg Smith about that one. Here are a few negative comments Meldrum has made about me, and it's only a small portion of them. The following is mostly from 2 messages he sent me. This all stems from me disagreeing with his theory and is quite telling who the real Rod Meldrum is (I can't recall *any* Mesoamerican scholar resorting to such horrible tactics). But to be honest, my interaction with Rod has made me dig deeper into my own beliefs and now really enjoy New World evidence for The Book of Mormon and am spending more time researching it.

 

 

You are uninformed when you say that I have badmouthed you personally to anyone else.  I have not.  That is not my M.O. it's yours… Where have I gone out and badmouthed you online?...

 

Come now Tyler you are losing your grip on reality, my friend?... what you are doing is wrong and mean spirited, not to mention unChrist-like... Where have I tried to expose that miserable excuse of a DNA video… You lie… you deliberately mislead people… Apparently livy111us, like so many of his progressive anti-capitalism and evolution loving friends at FAIR, BMAF and FARMS… his blatant lies and falsehoods… His film is one of the poorest excuses for scholarship I have ever seen… distort and lie… lies… We aim to do so [produce their theory] without the attacks, animosity, acrimony and falsehoods as has been committed by livy111us, FAIR, FARMS and BMAF… Oh, I don't remember Christ doing any such thing, I guess its the influence of His brother.  What? are you now planning my execution?  This is going to continue to be a problem for you, Tyler, because you are trying way to hard to believe in a FAIRy tale theory, and more and more people are seeing through your lies.  Again, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.  May the Lord bless you and your family with everything you deserve… They need 'experts' to lead and guide them into the paths of evolution and discounting Joseph Smith's statments and bearing false witness against those who disagree with your conclusions. You must be ever vigilant that the 'flock' not begin to see through your false pretenses or it may be difficult to not have them realize that they are being guarded by wolves…[after discussing Fair he says ] Reminds me of how secret combinations are described in the Book of Mormon...only those who have earned and entered into a secrecy agreement can receive the secret code to allow them to participate in the realm of the inner sanctum of knowledge of Book of Mormon geography!... like those involved in secret combinations Again, I am not assuming or insinuating you and your fine group(s) are working secret combinations…“Greg is a true believer in the Darwinian theory of organic evolution or even more importantly, he is NOT a believer in the creation accounts of the scriptures, temple ceremonies or the prophets which are clear that Adam was not descended from lower life forms, but was made in the image of God our Eternal Father; not chimps. ...That is how far Greg Smith has climbed aboard the organic evolution train and abandoned the scriptures regarding the creation of this earth and the statements of the prophets that directly refute that position.”… .  I wonder if Christ is as proud of you as you are of yourself?  What is your problem? Why do you lie and try to deceive the membership of the Church by your false claims and poor research?  Why do you take it upon yourself to speak for the leadership of the Church and try to usurp their authority over me? Do you not have enough sense… Who do you think you are, the final word in all truth and right? Your hate for me is manifest in every diatribe you publish.  Why do you persecute me without cause?  You try to hide it by lying about it, but just admit it, you have a hatred toward me that drives you on to stalk me and place negativity everywhere I go.  Don't you have a life? You falsely claim… You continue to lie… You are going to be held responsible for those who your false words may cause to reject this information… but after reading the garbage, innuendo and lies from you, FAIR, BMAF & company,.. Do you think you are some kind of holier than thou, self-appointed Savior of the Church… you are no Savior.  You are not even Christ-like… your constant attempts to deceive the membership of the Church. .. You have a hyper-active ego it would seem to me and you enjoy holding yourself out as some kind of truth purveyor and know-it-all. .. Not once have I attacked you online…[i am a] wonton stalker…[you are] stalking me.  I wonder if your time wouldn't be better spent teaching them your ideas on socialism and your deep and abiding love for Darwinian evolution and how they came from apes etc. as proposed by Gregory Smith in his attack article… hoping that you'd be man enough….  You have proven you have no desire to be decent,… Get a life… You are damaging the Church and its reputation with your lies and providing fodder for anti-Mormon's through your attacks.  You do not have the authority to speak for the Church. … slanderous comments… misinformation that you are not to be trusted in any way… lack of character… you have a sick addiction…. You need help with your addiction.  The Church offers a couple of good programs for people with such terrible addictions, maybe you should seek either theirs or more professional help?   … I hope someday you will see the damage you may have caused in the hopes and faith of others in usurping the rights of the Church leadership… Joseph Smith wasn't an ignorant fool… I hope you get a life so you won't continue to ruin the lives of others… you REALLY DO need psychological counseling and possibly time in a psych ward….  I have forgiven you at least 70 x 7 and I feel I will be justified in calling you out personally if your attacks continue…. You are by far and wide the loudest, most obnoxious… as you make false and lying claims… Get a clue… You seem to have no grasp on reality… You lie to folks… You are a sick man who needs psychological help for your hatred addiction…. You are out of control and perhaps your bishop and stake president should know… being unable to function in your daily life without attacking me is a psychological problem of real consequence…. You are obsessed.  Can't you see how utterly crazy and disturbed your frenzied mind has become, with an inability to think rationally about anything but attacking me in public online?  You seem not to be able to wait to find some place online to continue your tyraids against me and spew forth more hatred and contempt for me.  Are you really that unable to recognize the truth?... what really shows your psychological dysfunction is that you don't even recognize it…. YOUR (pathetic) WORKS… I have not attacked you, vilified you, hounded and harassed you… You need professional help.  You need a psychologist for your addiction and emotional inability to let go of your hatred and vindictiveness.  You are not the Savior of Mormonism. It will survive without your help. 

Perhaps you should read my last email and actually use a few of your remaining brain cells to contemplate it…. I am seriously considering putting up an article devoted to exposing you and your relentless attacks against me and debunking your false claims and poor research.  Maybe I'll send out an email to 20,000 members of the Church to post negative replies on your DVD and book.  Maybe I'll start following you around and hounding you and stalking you online like you have done and are in fact continuing to do against me.  

No, that would be wrong and distasteful and contentious....just like YOU.  I don't want to be like you and I wouldn't wish that level of hatred on anyone. antagonistic, sarcastic, hate-filled garbage against me… you need psychological help.  Your actions are not what normal, healthy, loving people do with their free time.  In contrast, when I have free time I like to focus on my family, my research and blessing others lives. …?  I am very concerned for your mental stability and health.  It is not healthy to have such an obsession.  You need counseling my friend… You are causing the contention… You hate me.  You loathe me.  You lie about your feelings toward me.  You deceive members of the Church in order to discredit me.  Just stop it...as Elder Uchtdorf said in General Conference.  Let it go and you already know that I have never gone after you first, so any and all contention will immediately end.  I have never been the aggressor in this, you are.  Stop your attacks and all hostilities will cease.  I often wonder if you actually enjoy and desire the contention, if you really want to cause the negativity... just to massage your bloated ego and make you feel like you actually doing something good… but if you do, be prepared to have your attacks repelled and rebutted with vigor.  I am way past 70x7.  

Prior to the above negative comments Meldrum made about you, is there a possibility you may have made some negative comments about him first? I ask this because it seems Meldrum's comments may have been in response to what he thought were attacks made by you against him. Between the two of you, who was the first one to start making negative comments about the other? And if you did have some unkind things to say about Meldrum before he said anything unkind about you, could you please post those statements here so that I can understand Meldrum's screed in context? It seems there are two possibilities: either Meldrum was outraged by something you said about him or he may need to take some Xanax.

Edited April 18, 2014 by teddyaware

[cinepro]

The Book of Mormon events probably did not happen in the USA 

 

I think everyone can agree that the Book of Mormon events absolutely did not happen in the United States of America.

Edited April 18, 2014 by cinepro

[nosmelone]

I watched some lectures online (a few hours worth) of Wayne May presenting evidence and litterally got sick to my stomach.  The things they present as facts I swear.  He stated that the times and seasons article by Joseph Smith stating that the Palenque was a Book of Mormon ruin was printed when Joseph was not in town to edit that article and was not done by him.  This was presented as solid fact and he stated that evidence has proved it.  When an all actuality it is exactly the opposite.  This was just one off of the top of my head but there were many more like the presenting of the Michigan relics as authentic and many of the other questionalble Soper/Savage relics...I can't imagine basing any sort of testimony or comfort in the Book of Mormon off of these types of things. 

[livy111us]

Prior to the above negative comments Meldrum made about you, is there a possibility you may have made some negative comments about him first? I ask this because it seems Meldrum's comments may have been in response to what he thought were attacks made by you against him. Between the two of you, who was the first one to start making negative comments about the other? And if you did have some unkind things to say about Meldrum before he said anything unkind about you, could you please post those statements here so that I can understand Meldrum's screed in context? It seems there are two possibilities: either Meldrum was outraged by something you said about him or he may need to take some Xanax.

 

These particular attacks by Meldrum were in reply to the following review I left about his CD's. What really got to his was that I left it on all of his products (since they pretty much say the same thing):

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion when it comes to Book of Mormon geography, as long as you are honest in your research. This is something I did not find in Meldrums works. First of all, the Neal A. Maxwell Institute, which is run by Church owned BYU (has several members of the 12 Apostles, and First Presidency on the board of Trustees), funded with Tithing money, published a review of some of the work done by one of the authors (Rodney Meldrum), and finds that it is inaccurate at best. This is sad because we shouldn't have to be wary of fellow LDS members writings.

You can read the review on the Neal A. Maxwell site, or do a search for Often in Error, Seldom in Doubt: Rod Meldrum and Book of Mormon DNA by Dr. Gregory L. Smith FARMS Review: Volume - 22, Issue - 1, Pages: 17-161

There are modern Prophets and Apostles who have said many interesting things in dedicatory prayers for Temples in Central America. Temple dedicatory prayers are given under inspiration and are explained in the Church publication "Encyclopedia of Mormonism", as a prayer that is

"offered under apostolic authority. Historically these prayers encompass the whole sweep of the modern dispensation, invoking divine blessings on all mankind, living and dead. They have often been prophetic of world events (see D&C 109). Encyclopedia of Mormonism, p 1455

Gordon B. Hinckleys dedicatory prayer at the Guatemala City, Guatemala temple, he stated, "Thou Kind and Gracious Father, our hearts swell with gratitude for Thy remembrance of the sons and daughters of Lehi... We thank Thee O God, for lifting the scales of darkness which for generations clouded the vision of the descendants of Lehi"

In his March 6, 1999 dedicatory prayer given at the Colonia Juaréz Chihuahua Temple, Hinckley he said, "Bless Thy Saints that they may continue to live here without molestation. May they live in peace and security. May they be prospered as they cultivate their farms and pursue their vocations. May the sons and daughters of father Lehi grow in strength and in fulfillment of the ancient promises made concerning them."

In August 1999, Hinckley made a similar statement as he was in Guayaquil, Ecuador to dedicate another new LDS temple. "It has been a very interesting thing to see the descendants of father Lehi in the congregation that have gathered in the temple...So very many of these people have the blood of Lehi in their veins, and it is just an intriguing thing to see their tremendous response and their tremendous interest" (Salt Lake Tribune 11/30/2000).

While there are Temple dedicatory prayers which place Lamanites in South America, Polynesian Islands and a few in the Southern US (such as the Snowflake Arizona Temple which is far outside where Meldrums book claims to be BOM lands), it should be noted that not one inspired Temple dedicatory prayer in the Great Lakes region say anything about BOM lands, Lamanites in those areas, or anything else that would hint that they were in Book of Mormon areas. The only inspired prayers are outside of this Great Lakes geography theory.

Meldrum also says that Lamanites were in North America. This is true, but, it was not the only place they were at.

President Joseph Fielding Smith says there are "millions" of Lamanites in Mexico-

"The history of this American continent also gives evidence that the Lamanites have risen up in their anger and vexed the Gentiles. This warfare may not be over. It has been the fault of people in the United States to think that this prophetic saying has reference to the Indians in the United States, but we must remember that there are millions of the 'remnant' in Mexico, Central and South America" (Church History and Modern Revelation 2:127, emphasis mine).

The Prophet Spencer W. Kimball said there are Lamanites all over the Western Hemisphere-

"I rejoice that it has been my privilege to carry the gospel to the Lamanites from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic, from the reaches of Canada to southern Chile, and in the islands from Hawaii to New Zealand." - Spencer W. Kimball, "Our Paths Have Met Again", Ensign, Dec. 1975

He makes several assumptions that are not correct, one of which is that Joseph Smith *only* taught a Great Lakes setting for The Book of Mormon. This is clearly not correct. Either the author did not really research the issue, or decided to ignore other quotes by Joseph Smith, as well as many other Prophets and Apostles in Joseph Smiths day forward. Neither option puts the research of the author in a positive light. Also, Joseph Smith published many things in the Times and Seasons and elsewhere, which placed The Book of Mormon in Central America, what is now Southern US, Western United States, Florida, Kentucky, and more. He also allowed members of the twelve apostles to declare Book of Mormon cities in Mesoamerica, repeatedly. Rodney Meldrum attempts to claim that Joseph Smith said no such thing, but the evidence says otherwise.

After Joseph Smith received the book Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan, which extensively goes over the Mayan ruins, history, archaeology, etc.. from John Bernhisel, Joseph Smith wrote him a thank you letter stating that this book on Mesoamerica:

"corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive.-..." Joseph Smith, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984), 501 - 502.

"Stephens and Catherwood's researches in Central America abundantly testify of this thing. The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of the ruins of Guatamala, and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people-men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited this continent. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormen [Mormon} unfolds their history." Joseph Smith (editor)," American Antiquities," Times and Seasons 3/18 (15 July 1842): 860

Joseph Smith was the Editor of the Times and Seasons, and it states on several issues where it is claimed that The Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica, that "The Times and Seasons, is Edited by Joseph Smith. Printed and published about the first and fifteenth of every month, on the corner of Water and Bain Streets Nauvoo, Hancock County, Illinois, by Joseph Smith."

There are MANY other examples of Joseph Smith teaching a Mesoamerican model for The Book of Mormon, but this should suffice.

Meldrum also claims that DNA proves his theory, yet there is no geneticist who backs up what he claims. I have produced a video on DNA and The Book of Mormon called "The Book of Mormon and New World DNA", and interviewed and spoke with many LDS geneticists. I spoke to them specifically about the X Haplogroup that Meldrum is using as evidence, and they all cautioned me against using it as evidence. So, I left it out of the video (which, I did for free, and get absolutely no royalties from. I did it to answer questions of those whose testimonies were shaken, and have not received one penny for my work. Meldrum has sold tens of thousands of DVD's for 25 dollars each. He has something to lose). You can click on the first link for more information on the fallacy of X Haplogroup as evidence for the BOM argument. Perhaps the mistake comes because Meldrum is not a scientist, and has no training whatsoever in genetics. He is a salesman by trade. Actual geneticists have urged him to back away from this argument because of it's flaws, but those pleas fell on deaf ears. He has ignored what doctors in this field say about his argument. These same LDS geneticists do not subscribe to any geography for The Book of Mormon. They do not care whether it took place in North America, South America, or Cuba. But, do recognize when someone, who is gaining popularity, is obviously wrong in their conclusion. They have nothing to gain or lose by explaining the fallacies of Meldrums argument, but would like to see accurate information published. They are not members of FAIR, and only present the facts.

Claims about the "Michigan relics" as evidence for The Book of Mormon have been used by Meldrum as well. But starting with Elder James E. Talmage (author of Jesus the Christ, Articles of Faith, and more) they have been shown to be forgeries. Recently, they were re-evaluated, and again, shown to be forgeries. So why are these forgeries used as evidence for The Book of Mormon? I would much rather learn about truthful evidences in behalf of The Book of Mormon than something that sounds good, but is fraudulent. This has been brought up to the author, but ignored. He now claims to have distanced himself from them, but I have personally seen them on display at his fireside, his website still sells books advocating the Michigan relics, he has pictures of them in one of his videos on the Hopewell, and you view them on your BOM geography tours with Meldrum as evidence for The Book of Mormon.

Overall, I know geneticists, archaeologists, and scholars who have no opinion on Book of Mormon geography, who have attempted to explain to Meldrum why the information he uses is not accurate, but they have been ignored. To me, this is the cherry on top of bad scholarship that give LDS a bad name. I hope to see future work by this author cleaned up, and presented with an honest look on these subjects.

Most every other point he makes is flawed. As I said before, it is sad that LDS scholars have to correct their own, but you can read more about it in another review by faithful Latter-day Saints, on the FAIR website, or do a search for "Reviews of DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography"

 

I can't say I've been completely innocent either, but I did nothing that justifies this kind of response. After years of dealing with anti-Mormons, I've never been attacked like he has attacked me...never. 

Edited April 18, 2014 by livy111us

[teddyaware]

I think everyone can agree that the Book of Mormon events absolutely did not happen in the United States of America.

The fact of the matter is that some Book of Mormon events did happen in what is now called the United States of America. We know that at one time the Nephite Prophet Moroni (now things don't get much more 'Book of Mormon' than that!) spent some time surviving within the boundaries of what is now called the State of New York. We also know that this same Nephite moved a large stone and dug a hole in a hill near what is now called Palmyra, New York, and that he also fabricated a reinforced box made of stones and cement within that hole.

 

We also know that the gold plates upon which the Book of Mormon was inscribed (now really it really doesn't get more 'Book of Mormon' than that!) were also with Moroni in today's New York State, along with the brother of Jared's warrior breastplate and sacred spectacles and interpreters called the Urim and Thummim. We also know that the prophet placed the gold plates, the breastplate and the Urim and Thummim within that fabricated stone and cement box, and then covered the same with the aforementioned large stone and some additional earth in order to hide away the sacred contents.

We also presume that after he buried the Book of Mormon, Moroni very likely prayed (the Nephites did a lot of that, you know) over the sacred depository and dedicated that spot of sacred ground, in what is know today as the United States of America, to the keeping of the Lord until the appointed time when, in accordance with Book of Mormon prophecy (see below), the Book of Mormon plates would be recovered, translated and revealed to the world from (you guessed it!) the latter-day promised land known as the United States of America.

In light of the above, the following verse from the Book of Mormon is telling:

12 Now these things are written unto the remnant of the house of Jacob; and they are written after this manner, because it is known of God that wickedness will not bring them forth unto them; and they are to be hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time. (Mormon 5)

 

There's no getting away from it -- like it or not, the fulfillment of the above prophecy took place within the boundaries of what is now called the United States of America; so some 'Book of Mormon events' did happen within the boundaries of the United States. Would it be unfair to say you are mistaken?

Edited April 18, 2014 by teddyaware

[livy111us]

The fact of the matter is that some Book of Mormon events did happen in what is now called the United States of America. We know that at one time the Nephite Prophet Moroni (now things don't get much more 'Book of Mormon' than that!) spent some time surviving within the boundaries of what is now called the State of New York. We also know that this same Nephite moved a large stone and dug a hole in a hill near what is now called Palmyra, New York, and that he also fabricated a reinforced box made of stones and cement within that hole.

 

We also know that the gold plates upon which the Book of Mormon was inscribed (now really it really doesn't get more 'Book of Mormon' than that!) were also with Moroni in today's New York State, along with the brother of Jared's warrior breastplate and sacred spectacles and interpreters called the Urim and Thummim. We also know that the prophet placed the gold plates, the breastplate and the Urim and Thummim within that fabricated stone and cement box, and then covered the same with the aforementioned large stone and some additional earth in order to hide away the sacred contents.

We also presume that after he buried the Book of Mormon, Moroni very likely prayed (the Nephites did a lot of that, you know) over the sacred depository and dedicated that spot of sacred ground, in what is know today as the United States of America, to the keeping of the Lord until the appointed time when, in accordance with Book of Mormon prophecy (see below), the Book of Mormon plates would be recovered, translated and revealed to the world from (you guessed it!) the latter-day promised land known as the United States of America.

In light of the above, the following verse from the Book of Mormon is telling:

12 Now these things are written unto the remnant of the house of Jacob; and they are written after this manner, because it is known of God that wickedness will not bring them forth unto them; and they are to be hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time. (Mormon 5)

 

There's no getting away from it -- like it or not, the fulfillment of the above prophecy took place within the boundaries of what is now called the United States of America; so some 'Book of Mormon events' did happen within the boundaries of the United States. Would it be unfair to say you are mistaken?

 

I think he was trying to be funny because the United States of America is only a few centuries old.

[Calm]

.I can't imagine basing any sort of testimony or comfort in the Book of Mormon off of these types of things.

Unfortunately people do to the point of writing to FairMormon members to call us to repentance for our disbelief.

And when the crash comes it can come hard and result in total faith going.

[teddyaware]

These particular attacks by Meldrum were in reply to the following review I left about his CD's. What really got to his was that I left it on all of his products (since they pretty much say the same thing):

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion when it comes to Book of Mormon geography, as long as you are honest in your research. This is something I did not find in Meldrums works. First of all, the Neal A. Maxwell Institute, which is run by Church owned BYU (has several members of the 12 Apostles, and First Presidency on the board of Trustees), funded with Tithing money, published a review of some of the work done by one of the authors (Rodney Meldrum), and finds that it is inaccurate at best. This is sad because we shouldn't have to be wary of fellow LDS members writings.

You can read the review on the Neal A. Maxwell site, or do a search for Often in Error, Seldom in Doubt: Rod Meldrum and Book of Mormon DNA by Dr. Gregory L. Smith FARMS Review: Volume - 22, Issue - 1, Pages: 17-161

There are modern Prophets and Apostles who have said many interesting things in dedicatory prayers for Temples in Central America. Temple dedicatory prayers are given under inspiration and are explained in the Church publication "Encyclopedia of Mormonism", as a prayer that is

"offered under apostolic authority. Historically these prayers encompass the whole sweep of the modern dispensation, invoking divine blessings on all mankind, living and dead. They have often been prophetic of world events (see D&C 109). Encyclopedia of Mormonism, p 1455

Gordon B. Hinckleys dedicatory prayer at the Guatemala City, Guatemala temple, he stated, "Thou Kind and Gracious Father, our hearts swell with gratitude for Thy remembrance of the sons and daughters of Lehi... We thank Thee O God, for lifting the scales of darkness which for generations clouded the vision of the descendants of Lehi"

In his March 6, 1999 dedicatory prayer given at the Colonia Juaréz Chihuahua Temple, Hinckley he said, "Bless Thy Saints that they may continue to live here without molestation. May they live in peace and security. May they be prospered as they cultivate their farms and pursue their vocations. May the sons and daughters of father Lehi grow in strength and in fulfillment of the ancient promises made concerning them."

In August 1999, Hinckley made a similar statement as he was in Guayaquil, Ecuador to dedicate another new LDS temple. "It has been a very interesting thing to see the descendants of father Lehi in the congregation that have gathered in the temple...So very many of these people have the blood of Lehi in their veins, and it is just an intriguing thing to see their tremendous response and their tremendous interest" (Salt Lake Tribune 11/30/2000).

While there are Temple dedicatory prayers which place Lamanites in South America, Polynesian Islands and a few in the Southern US (such as the Snowflake Arizona Temple which is far outside where Meldrums book claims to be BOM lands), it should be noted that not one inspired Temple dedicatory prayer in the Great Lakes region say anything about BOM lands, Lamanites in those areas, or anything else that would hint that they were in Book of Mormon areas. The only inspired prayers are outside of this Great Lakes geography theory.

Meldrum also says that Lamanites were in North America. This is true, but, it was not the only place they were at.

President Joseph Fielding Smith says there are "millions" of Lamanites in Mexico-

"The history of this American continent also gives evidence that the Lamanites have risen up in their anger and vexed the Gentiles. This warfare may not be over. It has been the fault of people in the United States to think that this prophetic saying has reference to the Indians in the United States, but we must remember that there are millions of the 'remnant' in Mexico, Central and South America" (Church History and Modern Revelation 2:127, emphasis mine).

The Prophet Spencer W. Kimball said there are Lamanites all over the Western Hemisphere-

"I rejoice that it has been my privilege to carry the gospel to the Lamanites from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic, from the reaches of Canada to southern Chile, and in the islands from Hawaii to New Zealand." - Spencer W. Kimball, "Our Paths Have Met Again", Ensign, Dec. 1975

He makes several assumptions that are not correct, one of which is that Joseph Smith *only* taught a Great Lakes setting for The Book of Mormon. This is clearly not correct. Either the author did not really research the issue, or decided to ignore other quotes by Joseph Smith, as well as many other Prophets and Apostles in Joseph Smiths day forward. Neither option puts the research of the author in a positive light. Also, Joseph Smith published many things in the Times and Seasons and elsewhere, which placed The Book of Mormon in Central America, what is now Southern US, Western United States, Florida, Kentucky, and more. He also allowed members of the twelve apostles to declare Book of Mormon cities in Mesoamerica, repeatedly. Rodney Meldrum attempts to claim that Joseph Smith said no such thing, but the evidence says otherwise.

After Joseph Smith received the book Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan, which extensively goes over the Mayan ruins, history, archaeology, etc.. from John Bernhisel, Joseph Smith wrote him a thank you letter stating that this book on Mesoamerica:

"corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive.-..." Joseph Smith, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984), 501 - 502.

"Stephens and Catherwood's researches in Central America abundantly testify of this thing. The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of the ruins of Guatamala, and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people-men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited this continent. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormen [Mormon} unfolds their history." Joseph Smith (editor)," American Antiquities," Times and Seasons 3/18 (15 July 1842): 860

Joseph Smith was the Editor of the Times and Seasons, and it states on several issues where it is claimed that The Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica, that "The Times and Seasons, is Edited by Joseph Smith. Printed and published about the first and fifteenth of every month, on the corner of Water and Bain Streets Nauvoo, Hancock County, Illinois, by Joseph Smith."

There are MANY other examples of Joseph Smith teaching a Mesoamerican model for The Book of Mormon, but this should suffice.

Meldrum also claims that DNA proves his theory, yet there is no geneticist who backs up what he claims. I have produced a video on DNA and The Book of Mormon called "The Book of Mormon and New World DNA", and interviewed and spoke with many LDS geneticists. I spoke to them specifically about the X Haplogroup that Meldrum is using as evidence, and they all cautioned me against using it as evidence. So, I left it out of the video (which, I did for free, and get absolutely no royalties from. I did it to answer questions of those whose testimonies were shaken, and have not received one penny for my work. Meldrum has sold tens of thousands of DVD's for 25 dollars each. He has something to lose). You can click on the first link for more information on the fallacy of X Haplogroup as evidence for the BOM argument. Perhaps the mistake comes because Meldrum is not a scientist, and has no training whatsoever in genetics. He is a salesman by trade. Actual geneticists have urged him to back away from this argument because of it's flaws, but those pleas fell on deaf ears. He has ignored what doctors in this field say about his argument. These same LDS geneticists do not subscribe to any geography for The Book of Mormon. They do not care whether it took place in North America, South America, or Cuba. But, do recognize when someone, who is gaining popularity, is obviously wrong in their conclusion. They have nothing to gain or lose by explaining the fallacies of Meldrums argument, but would like to see accurate information published. They are not members of FAIR, and only present the facts.

Claims about the "Michigan relics" as evidence for The Book of Mormon have been used by Meldrum as well. But starting with Elder James E. Talmage (author of Jesus the Christ, Articles of Faith, and more) they have been shown to be forgeries. Recently, they were re-evaluated, and again, shown to be forgeries. So why are these forgeries used as evidence for The Book of Mormon? I would much rather learn about truthful evidences in behalf of The Book of Mormon than something that sounds good, but is fraudulent. This has been brought up to the author, but ignored. He now claims to have distanced himself from them, but I have personally seen them on display at his fireside, his website still sells books advocating the Michigan relics, he has pictures of them in one of his videos on the Hopewell, and you view them on your BOM geography tours with Meldrum as evidence for The Book of Mormon.

Overall, I know geneticists, archaeologists, and scholars who have no opinion on Book of Mormon geography, who have attempted to explain to Meldrum why the information he uses is not accurate, but they have been ignored. To me, this is the cherry on top of bad scholarship that give LDS a bad name. I hope to see future work by this author cleaned up, and presented with an honest look on these subjects.

Most every other point he makes is flawed. As I said before, it is sad that LDS scholars have to correct their own, but you can read more about it in another review by faithful Latter-day Saints, on the FAIR website, or do a search for "Reviews of DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography"

 

I can't say I've been completely innocent either, but I did nothing that justifies this kind of response. After years of dealing with anti-Mormons, I've never been attacked like he has attacked me...never. 

It's good to be able to actually read what it was that precipitated Meldrum's response. It's also good to know you were willing to admit you weren't completely innocent either. Whether one's words can be likened unto an exceedingly sharp instrument or to a large, heavy club with a rusty nail protruding out near the top, they're both equally deadly. James words are instructive and it would be well if all paid heed to them.

6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hathbeen tamed of mankind:

8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. (James 3)

 

[livy111us]

Unfortunately people do to the point of writing to FairMormon members to call us to repentance for our disbelief.

And when the crash comes it can come hard and result in total faith going.

 

He mentioned one of these in the middle of one of his attack pieces against me. Of course, he blamed me and Fair for them losing their faith and not himself for having bad research to begin with. 

"I have had a couple of people mention that they have had loved ones who, after being introduced to these new evidences, were beginning to read the Book of Mormon again and were coming back to Church, but after reading the garbage, innuendo and lies from you, FAIR, BMAF & company, they became disillusioned and felt such a spirit of contention that they fell back away from the Church."

 

If these same people were introduced to good, solid evidences instead of his garbage, perhaps they would be fully active members today. But since he will not accept that he is the slightest bit wrong (despite the evidence brought against him) he puts the blame on anyone except himself. 

[teddyaware]

I think he was trying to be funny because the United States of America is only a few centuries old.

Did I not make myself clear enough when I said, "the fulfillment of the above prophecy took place within the boundaries of what is now called the United States of America."

[livy111us]

Did I not make myself clear enough when I said, "the fulfillment of the above prophecy took place within the boundaries of what is now called the United States of America."

 

Yes, I caught that. It just seemed that you misunderstood him, but, perhaps not.

[teddyaware]

Yes, I caught that. It just seemed that you misunderstood him, but, perhaps not.

Misunderstood whom?

[livy111us]

Cinepro

[Calm]

I am more concerned that some of the production values of the video are kind of 'cheesy' to me and they detract me from feeling the spirit of the message.  But hey, taste is a subjective thing yes?  :-)

did you see the whole video? If so and not at conference time, where? If at conference, ignore.

I have to admit the clothing looked too "what modern men think ancients wore based on their afternoons playing dress up with old sheets and bathrobes" to me. But I just saw the stills and the whole clean cut modern men with no tans, with modern haircuts didn't work well for the imagination either.

[nosmelone]

I watched the video both days of conference and didn't mind it but found the guy who played Jesus annoying.  He looked like he was about to start laughing at any moment or start busting jokes....then again he was standing on a Cahokia version of the temple in Bountiful so even the actor knew how big of a joke that was. j/k  But for real the guy who played Jesus just about ruined the video for me.

[Scott Lloyd]

Maybe BYU/tv. Haven't looked there yet, but I couldn't find it on lds.org and the clips that Meldrum put up and has apparently been asked to take down are very short.

Their search function didn't pull it up.

I would suggest writing byutv and ask if they are going to reshow it or maybe the contact info on the conference page...or maybe Scott can ask around and see if he can find out, pretty please.

Larry Richman, who works for the Church, has pledged to post information on his blog whenever it is announced that the film will be shown on lne.

[livy111us]

Larry Richman, who works for the Church, has pledged to post information on his blog whenever it is announced that the film will be shown on lne.

 

 

Can we assume it was him who spoke to Meldrum about taking the clips down from Meldrums's site?

[Scott Lloyd]

Can we assume it was him who spoke to Meldrum about taking the clips down from Meldrums's site?

No.

[Maestrophil]

did you see the whole video? If so and not at conference time, where? If at conference, ignore.

I have to admit the clothing looked too "what modern men think ancients wore based on their afternoons playing dress up with old sheets and bathrobes" to me. But I just saw the stills and the whole clean cut modern men with no tans, with modern haircuts didn't work well for the imagination either.

 

I watched the video both days of conference and didn't mind it but found the guy who played Jesus annoying.  He looked like he was about to start laughing at any moment or start busting jokes....then again he was standing on a Cahokia version of the temple in Bountiful so even the actor knew how big of a joke that was. j/k  But for real the guy who played Jesus just about ruined the video for me.

 

I did not see the entire video - just the link posted.  I agree that the costumes looked silly, the location settings looked terribly fake and CG and the Jesus actor was not a good casting choice IMO.  Like nosmelone said - it really kept me from feeling any kind of spirit or warmth at what should have been an inspirational event depicted.  No accounting for taste I suppose.  :-)

Edited April 19, 2014 by Maestrophil

[Calm]

Larry Richman, who works for the Church, has pledged to post information on his blog whenever it is announced that the film will be shown on lne.

Good man. Thank you very, very much.

[livy111us]

They seemed to be trying to accommodate both theories. The city Bountiful looks like the the city Cahokia but the Lamanites were using the Maya weapon macuahuitl. I had to giggle a little because Cahokia didn't exist for about 500 years after the ending of The Book of Mormon and didn't have a population close to BOM cities for a few more centuries after that. During the time period of The Book of Mormon, the Hopewell didn't even have cities, they did not exist. They did have small villages with the largest number of people equaling a few hundred people. A far cry from large walled cities filled with tens of thousands of people that are found in The Book of Mormon http://www.bmaf.org/articles/hopewell_culture_match__livingston

[Calm]

It may work as a complete video, don't know, I tend to be picky on recreations.

[Scott Lloyd]

It may work as a complete video, don't know, I tend to be picky on recreations.

One way to look at it is that the whole thing is based on contrary-to-fact supposition anyway (suppose Moroni didn't survive, etc.). With that in mind, it might be easier to tolerate inconsistency in setting, costume etc.

 

I don't know; I haven't seen it either.