The Myth Of The Unforgiving, Line-Drawing G-D Of The Old Testament

[USU78]

We all know the drill about the Father equaling stern justice and the Master equaling mercy.  It makes for a nice approximation of atonement, but does, it seems to me, serious damage to the scriptures.

 

Consider the following:

 

1.  Adam & Eve succumb to the serpent.  Nowhere is there any hint of condemnation in the text that I can see.  There is simply a rehearsal of the consequences of succumbing:  death and sorrow, as well as being cut off from the Tree of Life (a visual metaphor for Death), which can only be accomplished by an expulsion from Eden. 

 

2.  Abraham and Sarah succumb to despair and take things into their own hands by having Sarah's Egyptian slave, Hagar, become surrogate for Abraham and Sarah's first-born son.  G-d does not chide them for their lack of faith, nor does He interfere with what necessarily followed:  Hagar's insubordination  and Abraham's expulsion or her and her son from his household.  There are plenty of reasons to believe, moreover, that there was more to this than insubordination.  Hints of threats to Isaac's life such that Sarah was forced to take action to ensure her son's survival.  Yet G-d forgave Hagar's and Ishmael's refusal to forgive Isaac for being born and led them to safety and, ultimately, successful lives.  As had happened with Lot, Abraham saw the necessity of a parting of the ways of branches of the family to preserve peace.  I see no evidence of rancor in Abraham's actions, only sorrow that such consequences should come from what he no doubt believed was a loving and life-affirming act.  Was this expulsion into the desert followed by sorrow and death?  Of course it was, but those are consequences that could have been foreseen by Abraham and were, of course, seen be G-d.  And He forgave murderous thoughts and lesser sins. 

 

3.  Jacob demonstrates to his blind father, who was unable to see his favorite son's, Esau's, fecklessness, how little Esau esteemed his birthright:  giving up the birthright for a bowl of veggie stew?  But Isaac saw, and in refusing to withdraw from conferring the blessing on Jacob, dressed up in Esau drag, he demonstrated that he saw very well that Esau was a poor choice to run the family business and be the heir to the high priestly duties.  Isaac forgave his wife and younger son for their lack of faith that he would, when it came right down to it, do the right thing, just as G-d forgave them all ultimately, and ensured that Esau would not suffer anything more than a separation, a further parting of the ways between different branches of the family.  Yet Jacob it is that must first part from the family, an inevitable and necessary consequence of his sins, and he is sorely tried and cheated and defrauded and lied to while in a distant land.  G-d forgives him, however, but does not take away the consequences.  And with Jacob's contrition demonstrated so dramatically at the brook of Jabbok, Esau forgoes revenge and accepts the division of the family, and there is great good that G-d makes of the mess made by the "fools these mortals be."

 

4.  Joseph, the long-waited-for first son of the wife of Jacob's heart, the one who grew up with an intact nuclear family (instead of a distant father who came by infrequently, no doubt), the artless one who could not imagine that everybody loved him and would be excited for him when he starts having visions, demonstrating he is the heir to the birthright instead of Rueben, is likewise parted from the family, a consequence of Jacob's ham-handedness in dealing with his family, and of their refusal, as did Ishmael and as did Esau, to forgive the lesser sins of the inartful favoritism.  Yet G-d forgives them all, and the brothers' murderous intentions are first softened by a preservation of life and a Big Lie, then turned into the salvation of all the family, after Joseph's trials mold him into a better man who could forgive and return salvation for attempted murder.

 

So where does this notion come from that G-d is a line-drawing hurler of thunderbolts at the guilty?  Or that He is responsible for the inevitable pain and separation endemic to mortality?  Or that He is anything but forgiving and patient while we make our mistakes?  Or that He leaves us utterly alone in trying circumstances?

 

The evidence is simply not there.

 

What there is evidence for, and that in great abundance, is the tendency of us lesser creatures never to forgive:

 

1.  The Ishmaelites preserved a racial/tribal memory the lousy treatment of "innocent" Hagar and Ishmael as an excuse for fratricide as a national quality.

 

2.  The Edomites the same.

 

3.  The Moabites and Ammonites the same.

 

4.  And, perhaps worst of all, the Lamanites who refused to accept Nephi's abandonment of all of his and his followers' holdings to Laman and his followers, removing the "bone of contention," not once but twice (the Land of First Inheritance and City/Land of Nephi), and preserved for all generations a drive to fratricide out of unforgiveness for the crime of being the favored son.

[BCSpace]

Jesus, the God of the OT, is just as fiery in the NT (which encompasses far fewer years) as he was in the OT.

 

For example:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Matthew 18

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
Luke 11:44

And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
John 2:15

 

 

[wenglund]

What there is evidence for, and that in great abundance, is the tendency of us lesser creatures never to forgive:

 

This point was brought home to me in Sunday School yesterday when the teacher remarked that in his study of the Old Testament, there was only one instance he could find when a person of lesser status sought forgiveness from a superior and/or a peer, as distinguished from a superior granting, on their own volition, forgiveness to a subordinate. The one instance was when the brothers of Joseph were commanded of their father, Jacob/Israel, to seek forgiveness of Joseph.

 

The point was well made that back then there was a culture of vengeance rather than forgiveness, and thus when Christ came to earth an preached the gospel of forgiveness, it was a radical change being proposed.

 

Fascinating!

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Sanpitch]

Well there were a few unkind incidents in the OT.  Numbers 15:

 

 32 ¶And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the ^asabbath day.

 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to ^adeath: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

 

And about a hundred more.

[Sanpitch]

Exodus 21 

 

17 ¶And he that ^acurseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

 

 20 ¶And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be ^asurely punished.

 21 Notwithstanding, if he ^acontinue a day or two, he shall not be ^bpunished: for he is his money.

[USU78]

Because, Chief, G-d is forgiving.

 

And man?  Not so much.

 

So maybe we should place the blame for violence, vendettas and vengeance where it belongs:  on our own heads.

[Bob Crockett]

Jesus, the God of the OT, is just as fiery in the NT (which encompasses far fewer years) as he was in the OT.

 

 

As well, Third Nephi.

 

Yet another thread advancing a New Age philosophy of God.

[thesometimesaint]

The OT is replete with a mean, angry, God who deals out death, misery, bondage, cruelty in pure spite. If it weren't for the NT I would totally reject that God.

[USU78]

As well, Third Nephi.

 

Yet another thread advancing a New Age philosophy of God.

 

So, Sir Robert finds evidence of malice in G-d's silence?

 

Odd, that.

[Kenngo1969]

I don't know that we have a complete record of each and every thing that was done before God decided to mete out vengeance to all those upon whom he meted out vengeance.  I'm reminded of Nephi's conversation with his brothers: "Do ye suppose that they were righteous?  Behold, I say unto you, Nay.  Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had been righteous?  Behold, I say unto you, Nay."  (See 1 Nephi 17). 

[Kenngo1969]

The OT is replete with a mean, angry, God who deals out death, misery, bondage, cruelty in pure spite. If it weren't for the NT I would totally reject that God.

I don't know that we have a complete and accurate record of all of God's dealings with those people.  With due respect, how, apparently, do you?

[frank_jessop]

Yes, the God of the OT forgave and showed mercy; isn't the OT where one can learn about the year of Jubilee? The God of the OT also demanded/commanded that entire civilizations be "utterly destroyed" male, female, child, ox and beast.

[USU78]

Mr Frank, I can think of few things you could have mentioned that demonstrated better the phenomenon Kenngo describes.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't know that we have a complete and accurate record of all of God's dealings with those people.  With due respect, how, apparently, do you?

 

I don't know that we do either. I suspect that the OT record is missing in many important ways. But what's we's got's we's got's(Bad English and all) . I think we have to take all our Scriptures together to have them make sense. That being said it is just another in the long list of things I intend to ask God about when I see him.

Edited March 31, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[frank_jessop]

Mr Frank, I can think of few things you could have mentioned that demonstrated better the phenomenon Kenngo describes.

The prior dealings do not matter. For sake of argument after forgiving 7X70, in the end however, God commanded that several nations be utterly destroyed. The OT demonstrates that God will forgive and will utterly destroy.

And even if we did have more to the story, it is very likely, the story would include an "if, then" type statement (such as one delivered by Jonah). And with such a "if, then" statement, we can surely see that the "then", of an "if, then", is the line-drawn. The experience of Jonah shows God's willingness and character to forgive and His willingness and character to destroy.

Edited March 31, 2014 by frank_jessop

[cinepro]

Well there were a few unkind incidents in the OT.  Numbers 15:

 

 32 ¶And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the ^asabbath day.

 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to ^adeath: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

 

And about a hundred more.

 

 

But we don't know the whole story.  Maybe that man was going to murder someone the next day, and God was pre-emptively removing him from the people (aka the Minority Report principle).  If you don't find something God does to be faith promoting, the problem might be with God, or it might be your own lack of creativity. 

[Sanpitch]

But we don't know the whole story.  Maybe that man was going to murder someone the next day, and God was pre-emptively removing him from the people (aka the Minority Report principle).  If you don't find something God does to be faith promoting, the problem might be with God, or it might be your own lack of creativity. 

It could have been that if that guy had got away with gathering wood on Sunday then everybody would be out gathering wood on Sunday then where would we be?  Better to stone them to death before it spreads.  But I tend to think that the guy worked all week and had a sick wife at home with some kids and he felt he had to gather the wood for cooking. 

[USU78]

The prior dealings do not matter. For sake of argument after forgiving 7X70, in the end however, God commanded that several nations be utterly destroyed. The OT demonstrates that God will forgive and will utterly destroy.

And even if we did have more to the story, it is very likely, the story would include an "if, then" type statement (such as one delivered by Jonah). And with such a "if, then" statement, we can surely see that the "then", of an "if, then", is the line-drawn. The experience of Jonah shows God's willingness and character to forgive and His willingness and character to destroy.

 

I think you also may be getting hung up on the causation issue:

 

G-d = First Cause; therefore, G-d causes all that ensues.

 

If we, however, assume that there is such a thing as moral agency, and if we assume further that G-d causes certain things to happen in individuals' lives and in the lives of nations, then it is entirely possible, if not probable, that a loving and giving and forgiving G-d would continue to forgive and to "hold back the torrents" as long as He reasonably ought to, whereupon He lets the torrent sweep the individual or the nation away.

 

The Mormon should also continue to understand what he learns as a toddler:  "By the wicked the wicked are punished."

 

Not that G-d necessarily orders the destruction of persons or nations, but rather, He permits such things to happen.  And wicked Israel is punished by wicked Nebuchadrezzar . . . and wicked Israel punishes wicked Jerusalem of the Jebusites . . . and so on.

Edited March 31, 2014 by USU78

[Sanpitch]

 

 

 

I think you also may be getting hung up on the causation issue:

 

G-d = First Cause; therefore, G-d causes all that ensues.

 

If we, however, assume that there is such a thing as moral agency, and if we assume further that G-d causes certain things to happen in individuals' lives and in the lives of nations, then it is entirely possible, if not probable, that a loving and giving and forgiving G-d would continue to forgive and to "hold back the torrents" as long as He reasonably ought to, whereupon He lets the torrent sweep the individual or the nation away.

 

The Mormon should also continue to understand what he learns as a toddler:  "By the wicked the wicked are punished."

 

Not that G-d necessarily orders the destruction of persons or nations, but rather, He permits such things to happen.  And wicked Israel is punished by wicked Nebuchadrezzar . . . and wicked Israel punishes wicked Jerusalem of the Jebusites . . . and so on.

It seems to me that you need to read the OT again.  God orders the destruction of multitudes and individuals.  I have a very negative attitude towards the OT as anyone can tell.  If your kids misbehave, beat them to death, that takes care of the situation.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Sanpitch

[frank_jessop]

I think you also may be getting hung up on the causation issue:

G-d = First Cause; therefore, G-d causes all that ensues.

If we, however, assume that there is such a thing as moral agency, and if we assume further that G-d causes certain things to happen in individuals' lives and in the lives of nations, then it is entirely possible, if not probable, that a loving and giving and forgiving G-d would continue to forgive and to "hold back the torrents" as long as He reasonably ought to, whereupon He lets the torrent sweep the individual or the nation away.

The Mormon should also continue to understand what he learns as a toddler:  "By the wicked the wicked are punished."

Not that G-d necessarily orders the destruction of persons or nations, but rather, He permits such things to happen.And wicked Israel is punished by wicked Nebuchadrezzar . . . and wicked Israel punishes wicked Jerusalem of the Jebusites . . . and so on.

Must we consider that Joshua and Israel were wicked, thus the destruction of Jericho at their hands? That Samuel was wicked when he completed the utter destruction of the Amalekites?

Edited March 31, 2014 by frank_jessop

[BCSpace]

As well, Third Nephi.

 

Yet another thread advancing a New Age philosophy of God.

 

Indeed.  God is both just and merciful in the right circumstances.  We should be the same and exercise righteous judgement; not no judgement and no punishment at all.

[Kenngo1969]

I don't know that we do either. I suspect that the OT record is missing in many important ways. But what's we's got's we's got's(Bad English and all) . I think we have to take all our Scriptures together to have them make sense. That being said it is just another in the long list of things I intend to ask God about when I see him.

Fair 'nough!  I'll be right behind you in that line of questioners.  (Or maybe we'll meet up at the same Fireside! )

[Glenn101]

   So, how long did Noah preach repentance while he was building the ark? How often did Isiah repeat that "his hand is stretched out still" when recounting the calamities that befell the Israelites because of their wickedness?

 

And what was it that this same God said in the New Testament (Luke 13,34)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

 

Let's not blame God!!!!

 

Glenn

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

The Deuteronomist-penned God of much of the "historical" sections of the Old Testament is a paranoid, power-hungry, jealous, racist, sexist, genocidal monster. Thank G-d we have the NT theology in which we see Christ trying to restore a pre-Deuteronomist understanding of a loving God and merciful Atonement.  

[USU78]

Must we consider that Joshua and Israel were wicked, thus the destruction of Jericho at their hands? That Samuel was wicked when he completed the utter destruction of the Amalekites?

 

Joshu'a the Ephraimite was the "godfather" of the Northern Kingdom.  His spiritual/political/intellectual heirs are the vanished Northern Kingdom and the vanished Nephite Nation, the latter of which gave us the bon mot.

 

Read Judges sometime.  Seems pretty clear the Israelites' morals and ethics were not so very superior to the "uncircumcised Philistines'."