Ordain Women Group Prohibited From Protesting On Church Property

[Scott Lloyd]

There is also Junia, the female apostle.

It's not self evident that Junia is a female or, if she is, that she is an apostle.

 

Some Greek manuscripts give a masculine name (Junius).

 

And the wording is ambiguous; i.e. "of note among the apostles" doesn't have to mean a member of that body. It could mean well-esteemed by the apostles. There is a grammatical issue at play here.

 

 

And of course there are prophetesses.

 

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, so in one scriptural sense, all who have the testimony of Jesus are prophets (or prophetesses) as in the case of Anna who saw the Christ child and testified of His divinity.

 

No requirement here that it be regarded as a priesthood office when used in that sense.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[MiserereNobis]

It's not self evident that Junia is a female or, if she is, that she is an apostle.

 

Some Greek manuscripts give a masculine name (Junius).

 

And the wording is ambiguous; i.e. "of note among the apostles" doesn't have to mean a member of that body. It could mean well-esteemed by the apostles. There is a grammatical issue at play here.

 

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, so in one scriptural sense, all who have the testimony of Jesus are prophets (or prophetesses) as in the case of Anna who saw the Christ child and testified of His divinity.

 

No requirement here that it be regarded as a priesthood office when used in that sense.

 

Also (since we Catholics have to deal with that verse, too), an "apostle" simply means "one who is sent."  In the Catholic Church we have apostolates (not apostates, I know how you Mormons think! ), which are like ministries but have the same root as apostle.  So Junia could have been a messenger, or the leader of a ministry, or something similar, without having received Orders or the priesthood.

Edited March 20, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[Scott Lloyd]

Also (since we Catholics have to deal with that verse, too), an "apostle" simply means "one who is sent."  In the Catholic Church we have apostolates (not apostates, I know how you Mormons think! ), which are like ministries but have the same root as apostle.  So Junia could have been a messenger, or the leader of a ministry, or something similar, without having received Orders or the priesthood.

Yes, there's that too.

 

Thank you.

[why me]

So now it is silencing other positions by simply not including other positions?

 

Kelly herself has admitted that her organization is a social action organization. They believe in social action to get their point across. There are many lds people who do not believe in social action when dealing with the church. The more moderate people who wish to have women ordained may believe in a different way of doing things. These are the people whose voice would be silenced in her organization.

 

May I also add that the media loves a liberal, feminist social action group which is challenging conservation social dogma. Thus, they will also go to Kelly.

Edited March 20, 2014 by why me

[changed]

Random question - prior to the blacks getting the priesthood, were there protests at temple square?  What methodology did they use to ask?

Edited March 20, 2014 by changed

[why me]

As a side note, did it read correctly that you posted a a few days back that are currently not fully active at church and don't hold a calling? I seem to recall it was you who made this comment. If that is the case then some of the logic that is being applied to the OW movements associated with both inactive and non-members can be reversed...

 

If you are not fully active in church then your opposition to the OW movement, by association, undermines the legitimacy of the church communities opposition against OW, in virtue of the fact that inactive members share the same view. 

Not quite. I do believe that for the lds church to be true it must be able to resist social pressure and rely on revelation. OW is a social action organization and I see a contradiction in believing that social action can bring about revelation. Revelation is given through prayer and not social action. Now if OW was a secular organization, I can understand their social action. I have been there and done that. But to claim to be made up of active members who wish to change policy by social action seems like a contradiction. And it is this contradiction that I see between her words and in her imaging as seen in her video that I linked to on thread 24 I believe.

[why me]

Random question - prior to the blacks getting the priesthood, were there protests at temple square?  What methodology did they use to ask?

No protests, just revelation and many prayers from the members. Which is my case in point. Social action will not work when it comes to ordaining females. But prayers may do the trick.

[Bernard Gui]

For this to happen, the Church will have to repudiate D&C 68 and Alma 13.

 

Section 68

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Hiram, Ohio, November 1, 1831, in response to prayer that the mind of the Lord be made known concerning Orson Hyde, Luke S. Johnson, Lyman E. Johnson, and William E. McLellin. Although part of this revelation was directed toward these four men, much of the content pertains to the whole Church. This revelation was expanded under Joseph Smith’s direction when it was published in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants.

 13 And now, concerning the items in addition to the covenants and commandments, they are these—

 14 There remain hereafter, in the due time of the Lord, other bishops to be set apart unto the church, to minister even according to the first;

 15 Wherefore they shall be high priests who are worthy, and they shall be appointed by the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood, except they be literal descendants of Aaron.

 16 And if they be literal descendants of Aaron they have a legal right to the bishopric, if they are the firstborn among the sons of Aaron;

 17 For the firstborn holds the right of the presidency over this priesthood, and the keys or authority of the same.

 18 No man has a legal right to this office, to hold the keys of this priesthood, except he be a literal descendant and the firstborn of Aaron.

 19 But, as a high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices he may officiate in the office of bishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power, under the hands of the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

 20 And a literal descendant of Aaron, also, must be designated by this Presidency, and found worthy, and anointed, and ordained under the hands of this Presidency, otherwise they are not legally authorized to officiate in their priesthood.

 21 But, by virtue of the decree concerning their right of the priesthood descending from father to son, they may claim their anointing if at any time they can prove their lineage, or do ascertain it by revelation from the Lord under the hands of the above named Presidency.

ALMA 13

 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

 2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.

 3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

 4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.

 5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—

 6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest—

 7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things—

 8 Now they were ordained after this manner—being called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood, is without beginning or end—

 9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen.

 10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith andrepentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;

 11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

 12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

 13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

 14 Yea, humble yourselves even as the people in the days of Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken, who also took upon him the high priesthood forever.

 15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.

 16 Now these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord.

 17 Now this Melchizedek was a king over the land of Salem; and his people had waxed strong in iniquity and abomination; yea, they had all gone astray; they were full of all manner of wickedness;

 18 But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father.

 19 Now, there were many before him, and also there were many afterwards, but none were greater; therefore, of him they have more particularly made mention.

 20 Now I need not rehearse the matter; what I have said may suffice. Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction.

 25 And now we only wait to hear the joyful news declared unto us by the mouth of angels, of his coming; for the time cometh, we know not how soon. Would to God that it might be in my day; but let it be sooner or later, in it I will rejoice.

 26 And it shall be made known unto just and holy men, by the mouth of angels, at the time of his coming, that the words of our fathers may be fulfilled, according to that which they have spoken concerning him, which was according to the spirit of prophecy which was in them.

[changed]

No protests, just revelation and many prayers from the members. Which is my case in point. Social action will not work when it comes to ordaining females. But prayers may do the trick.

Just found this 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/welcometable/2013/09/priesthood-restrictions-shall-we-protest/

 

[Scott Lloyd]

The clause about "when moved on by the Holy Ghost" is very subjective though.

It shows enough flexibility to refute the notion that a revelation is not a revelation unless it's canonized

 

Maybe the Holy Ghost only ratifies statements already canonized?

 

 

The verse doesn't say that.

 

It's too vague to really support any kind of consistent way to determine what is "official" revelation.

 

 

It's explicit enough to refute the notion that a revelation must be canonized to be valid. As I said above.

[rockpond]

Random question - prior to the blacks getting the priesthood, were there protests at temple square?  What methodology did they use to ask?

 

 

No protests, just revelation and many prayers from the members. Which is my case in point. Social action will not work when it comes to ordaining females. But prayers may do the trick.

 

 

Just found this 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/welcometable/2013/09/priesthood-restrictions-shall-we-protest/

 

 

From Wikipedia:

 

There were some LDS church members who protested against the church's discriminatory practices. Two LDS church members, Douglas A. Wallace and Byron Merchant, were excommunicated by the LDS church (1976 and 1977 respectively) after criticizing the church's discrimatory practices.^{[84][85][86][87]} LDS church member Grant Syphers objected to the church's racial policies and, as a consequence, his stake president refused to give Sypher permission to enter the temple. The president said, "Anyone who could not accept the Church's stand on Negroes...could not go to the temple".^[88]

 

There were protests and petitions both inside and outside the church leading up to OD2.

[Scott Lloyd]

Random question - prior to the blacks getting the priesthood, were there protests at temple square?  What methodology did they use to ask?

To clarify, there was no pressure from within, but there were protests and demonstrations and other forms of pressure applied externally (this was during the turbulent '60s, a time of civil unrest, etc.)

 

All of that had died down by 1978, however.

 

Edited to add:

 

Just saw rockpond's post. I forgot about Wallace.

 

He was very much an anomaly, though, and was regard by Church members at large much as Tom Phillips is regarded today.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

Just found this 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/welcometable/2013/09/priesthood-restrictions-shall-we-protest/

 

This is how I remember it. No public contention or public organized pressure just faith, prayers and revelation. And this is how a church should work which claims to be god's true church. Contention and conflict in this sense are not from god. I can not help but think just how different it could be if Kelly would have worked with the church and not against it. Much would have been accomplished. But such is not her feminism. Her feminism seeks conflict between men and women, a fight against patriarchal power.

Edited March 20, 2014 by why me

[rockpond]

To clarify, there was no pressure from within,

 

Incorrect.  See my reference in post #536.

[rockpond]

This is how I remember it. No public contention or public pressure just faith, prayers and revelation.

 

Apparently, our memories are not always factually accurate.

[Bernard Gui]

And D&C 107:

 

1 There are, in the church, two priesthoods, namely, the Melchizedek and Aaronic, including the Levitical Priesthood.

 2 Why the first is called the Melchizedek Priesthood is because Melchizedek was such a great high priest.

 3 Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.

 4 But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood.

 5 All other authorities or offices in the church are appendages to this priesthood.

 13 The second priesthood is called the Priesthood of Aaron, because it was conferred upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations.

 16 No man has a legal right to this office [bishop], to hold the keys of this priesthood, except he be a literal descendant of Aaron.

 17 But as a high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices, he may officiate in the office of bishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power by the hands of the Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

 29 Unless this is the case, their decisions are not entitled to the same blessings which the decisions of a quorum of three presidents were anciently, who were ordained after the order of Melchizedek, and were righteous and holy men.

 40 The order of this priesthood was confirmed to be handed down from father to son, and rightly belongs to the literal descendants of the chosen seed, to whom the promises were made.

 41 This order was instituted in the days of Adam, and came down by lineage in the following manner:

 42 From Adam to Seth, who was ordained by Adam at the age of sixty-nine years, and was blessed by him three years previous to his (Adam’s) death, and received the promise of God by his father, that his posterity should be the chosen of the Lord, and that they should be preserved unto the end of the earth;

 43 Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.

 44 Enos was ordained at the age of one hundred and thirty-four years and four months, by the hand of Adam.

 45 God called upon Cainan in the wilderness in the fortieth year of his age; and he met Adam in journeying to the place Shedolamak. He was eighty-seven years old when he received his ordination.

 46 Mahalaleel was four hundred and ninety-six years and seven days old when he was ordained by the hand of Adam, who also blessed him.

 47 Jared was two hundred years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam, who also blessed him.

 48 Enoch was twenty-five years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam; and he was sixty-five and Adam blessed him.

 49 And he saw the Lord, and he walked with him, and was before his face continually; and he walked with God three hundred and sixty-five years, making him four hundred and thirty years old when he was translated.

 50 Methuselah was one hundred years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam.

 51 Lamech was thirty-two years old when he was ordained under the hand of Seth.

 52 Noah was ten years old when he was ordained under the hand of Methuselah.

 53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.

 54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.

 55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever.

 56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

 63 Wherefore, from deacon to teacher, and from teacher to priest, and from priest to elder, severally as they are appointed, according to the covenants and commandments of the church.

 64 Then comes the High Priesthood, which is the greatest of all.

 65 Wherefore, it must needs be that one be appointed of the High Priesthood to preside over the priesthood, and he shall be called President of the High Priesthood of the Church;

 66 Or, in other words, the Presiding High Priest over the High Priesthood of the Church.

 69 Nevertheless a bishop must be chosen from the High Priesthood, unless he is a literal descendant of Aaron;

 70 For unless he is a literal descendant of Aaron he cannot hold the keys of that priesthood.

 71 Nevertheless, a high priest, that is, after the order of Melchizedek, may be set apart unto the ministering of temporal things, having a knowledge of them by the Spirit of truth;

 72 And also to be a judge in Israel, to do the business of the church, to sit in judgment upon transgressors upon testimony as it shall be laid before him according to the laws, by the assistance of his counselors, whom he has chosen or will choose among the elders of the church.

 73 This is the duty of a bishop who is not a literal descendant of Aaron, but has been ordained to the High Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.

 74 Thus shall he be a judge, even a common judge among the inhabitants of Zion, or in a stake of Zion, or in any branch of the church where he shall be set apart unto this ministry, until the borders of Zion are enlarged and it becomes necessary to have other bishops or judges in Zion or elsewhere.

 75 And inasmuch as there are other bishops appointed they shall act in the same office.

 76 But a literal descendant of Aaron has a legal right to the presidency of this priesthood, to the keys of this ministry, to act in the office of bishop independently, without counselors, except in a case where a President of the High Priesthood, after the order of Melchizedek, is tried, to sit as a judge in Israel.

 91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—

 92 Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church.

 99 Wherefore, now let every man learn his duty, and to act in the office in which he is appointed, in all diligence.

 100 He that is slothful shall not be counted worthy to stand, and he that learns not his duty and shows himself not approved shall not be counted worthy to stand. Even so. Amen.

[Scott Lloyd]

Incorrect.  See my reference in post #536.

Please see my amendment to my post.

 

Wallace was regarded as a fanatical apostate by Church members. There was nothing substantive coming from inside the Church.

[changed]

From Wikipedia:

 

There were some LDS church members who protested against the church's discriminatory practices. Two LDS church members, Douglas A. Wallace and Byron Merchant, were excommunicated by the LDS church (1976 and 1977 respectively) after criticizing the church's discrimatory practices.^{[84][85][86][87]} LDS church member Grant Syphers objected to the church's racial policies and, as a consequence, his stake president refused to give Sypher permission to enter the temple. The president said, "Anyone who could not accept the Church's stand on Negroes...could not go to the temple".^[88]

 

There were protests and petitions both inside and outside the church leading up to OD2.

It looks like some people took the correct route, while others took the incorrect route?  Some were excommunicated, while others were invited in to talk with the presidency.   

[Gray]

So you believe it's simply cultural tradition, in which case women could easily (and should) be given the priesthood.

I believe it's divine (eternally) established role and not subject to change making their request in error.

We don't agree on this and that is completely fine.

 

So who get's the last word in deciding if it is simply tradition or if it is the unchanging nature of priesthood?

 

According to Mormonism the GA's/Prophet get to interpret God's will.  So all the agitating for change is pointless unless the GA's believe it is simply tradition in which case they will approach the Lord for guidance and further revelation.

However, if the GA's believe it's the eternal nature of ecclesiastical priesthood to be male only they aren't going to bother looking for revelation no matter how much people disagree with them.

 

Well, I don't think there's a last word to be had here. That's the beauty of life!

[Gray]

There doesn't need to be if it is an eternal principle.

 

Begs the question: is it? I don't think so. I think it's hard for us as humans not to project our own will onto the divine.  

[JLHPROF]

D&C 107:

 

 2 Why the first is called the Melchizedek Priesthood is because Melchizedek was such a great high priest.

 3 Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.

  13 The second priesthood is called the Priesthood of Aaron, because it was conferred upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations.

 16 No man has a legal right to this office [bishop], to hold the keys of this priesthood, except he be a literal descendant of Aaron.

 17 But as a high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices, he may officiate in the office of bishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power by the hands of the Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

 29 Unless this is the case, their decisions are not entitled to the same blessings which the decisions of a quorum of three presidents were anciently, who were ordained after the order of Melchizedek, and were righteous and holy men.

 40 The order of this priesthood was confirmed to be handed down from father to son, and rightly belongs to the literal descendants of the chosen seed, to whom the promises were made.

  63 Wherefore, from deacon to teacher, and from teacher to priest, and from priest to elder, severally as they are appointed, according to the covenants and commandments of the church.

 64 Then comes the High Priesthood, which is the greatest of all.

 65 Wherefore, it must needs be that one be appointed of the High Priesthood to preside over the priesthood, and he shall be called President of the High Priesthood of the Church;

 66 Or, in other words, the Presiding High Priest over the High Priesthood of the Church.

 69 Nevertheless a bishop must be chosen from the High Priesthood, unless he is a literal descendant of Aaron;

 70 For unless he is a literal descendant of Aaron he cannot hold the keys of that priesthood.

 71 Nevertheless, a high priest, that is, after the order of Melchizedek, may be set apart unto the ministering of temporal things, having a knowledge of them by the Spirit of truth;

 72 And also to be a judge in Israel, to do the business of the church, to sit in judgment upon transgressors upon testimony as it shall be laid before him according to the laws, by the assistance of his counselors, whom he has chosen or will choose among the elders of the church.

 73 This is the duty of a bishop who is not a literal descendant of Aaron, but has been ordained to the High Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.

 74 Thus shall he be a judge, even a common judge among the inhabitants of Zion, or in a stake of Zion, or in any branch of the church where he shall be set apart unto this ministry, until the borders of Zion are enlarged and it becomes necessary to have other bishops or judges in Zion or elsewhere.

 75 And inasmuch as there are other bishops appointed they shall act in the same office.

 76 But a literal descendant of Aaron has a legal right to the presidency of this priesthood, to the keys of this ministry, to act in the office of bishop independently, without counselors, except in a case where a President of the High Priesthood, after the order of Melchizedek, is tried, to sit as a judge in Israel.

 91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—

 92 Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church.

 99 Wherefore, now let every man learn his duty, and to act in the office in which he is appointed, in all diligence.

 100 He that is slothful shall not be counted worthy to stand, and he that learns not his duty and shows himself not approved shall not be counted worthy to stand. Even so. Amen.

 

 

For this to happen, the Church will have to repudiate D&C 68 and Alma 13.

 

Section 68

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Hiram, Ohio, November 1, 1831, in response to prayer that the mind of the Lord be made known concerning Orson Hyde, Luke S. Johnson, Lyman E. Johnson, and William E. McLellin. Although part of this revelation was directed toward these four men, much of the content pertains to the whole Church. This revelation was expanded under Joseph Smith’s direction when it was published in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants.

 13 And now, concerning the items in addition to the covenants and commandments, they are these—

 14 There remain hereafter, in the due time of the Lord, other bishops to be set apart unto the church, to minister even according to the first;

 15 Wherefore they shall be high priests who are worthy, and they shall be appointed by the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood, except they be literal descendants of Aaron.

 16 And if they be literal descendants of Aaron they have a legal right to the bishopric, if they are the firstborn among the sons of Aaron;

 17 For the firstborn holds the right of the presidency over this priesthood, and the keys or authority of the same.

 18 No man has a legal right to this office, to hold the keys of this priesthood, except he be a literal descendant and the firstborn of Aaron.

 19 But, as a high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices he may officiate in the office of bishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power, under the hands of the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

 20 And a literal descendant of Aaron, also, must be designated by this Presidency, and found worthy, and anointed, and ordained under the hands of this Presidency, otherwise they are not legally authorized to officiate in their priesthood.

 21 But, by virtue of the decree concerning their right of the priesthood descending from father to son, they may claim their anointing if at any time they can prove their lineage, or do ascertain it by revelation from the Lord under the hands of the above named Presidency.

ALMA 13

 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

 2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.

 3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

 4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.

 5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—

 6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest—

 7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things—

 8 Now they were ordained after this manner—being called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood, is without beginning or end—

 9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen.

 10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith andrepentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;

 11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

 12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

 13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

 14 Yea, humble yourselves even as the people in the days of Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken, who also took upon him the high priesthood forever.

 15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.

 16 Now these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord.

 17 Now this Melchizedek was a king over the land of Salem; and his people had waxed strong in iniquity and abomination; yea, they had all gone astray; they were full of all manner of wickedness;

 18 But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father.

 19 Now, there were many before him, and also there were many afterwards, but none were greater; therefore, of him they have more particularly made mention.

 20 Now I need not rehearse the matter; what I have said may suffice. Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction.

 

And of course the requirement that Bishop's have a wife...

 

But seriously, to say there is no revelation delineating the ecclesiastical priesthood as a male role is to ignore so many of these scriptures.  Of course there is no revelation banning women from priesthood because they receive certain priesthood keys in the temple.  But the "no ban" argument is a little like the litlle kid who says "but you didn't explicitly say that I couldn't so I did".  God established in the scriptures who does get the ecclesiastical priesthood.  He doesn't need to specify who doesn't.

[Gray]

No there is not, but it is an issue that the majority of the church (especially the "Brethren") believe would require revelation to change.

 

While it may be true that women do not have the priesthood because of a prophetic "restriction" it is true that the restriction of womens ordination has been a part of our religious identity long enough that it is a legitimate expectation that it changing it should be done by revelation.

 

It may be an example of revelation being needed to changing cultural beliefs (as I am of the opinion was the case with black ordination). Even though that means the process of change (if it happens at all) will be very slow by societies standards, it does mean we can have strong confidence in the change when and if it occurs.

 

Because of this I believe the OW movement to be (currently) exerting a net positive impact on the direction of the church. Challenging our own beliefs periodically is important.

 

Agreed!

[Bikeemikey]

But our task is to try to approach the ideal even as we recognize that we won't get all the way there in this life. For me, if that means laying aside petty jealousies about funding and autonomy and whether I'm consulted in advance about what happens in the meeting I conduct, I'm going to try my best to comply.

 

Sure but is it to also respond as one poster here has that people with petty jealousies are stupid? I hope that we would be in agreement that such is not the case.

[rockpond]

Please see my amendment to my post.

 

Wallace was regarded as a fanatical apostate by Church members. There was nothing substantive coming from inside the Church.

 

Obviously he was regarded as an apostate, he was excommunicated.

 

Wallace, Merchant, Syphers... all were members.  That's protests and pressure from within.

 

You guys and this Patheos article continue the pattern of gently revising history to make it fit with current views.  Margaret Blair Young's article on Patheos talks about Lester Bush's writings being somewhat of a catalyst to the 1978 revelation but doesn't bother to mention how that article was viewed when published five years earlier nor how Bush was treated before/after its publication. (See the final paragraph here:  http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/06/08/the-long-awaited-day/)

[Bikeemikey]

That goes against correct principle - once an answer is given we are not to ask again.  Now, if you believe there has yet to be an answer that's fine.  We should get one.  But once we have an answer we should not ask again.  That goes against doctrine clearly established in scripture and prophetic teaching.  And of course God and eternal law doesn't change so once an answer is clearly received accept it and move on.

 

You are aware that President Mckay reported not to ask the lord agin on the issue of black ordination and then a couple of prophets later the question was asked again and a new revelation was given.

 

Here is a very interesting blog post about the the phrase Joseph Smith often used, "weary the lord until he blesses you".

 

http://withoutspot.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/weary-the-lord-until-he-blesses-you/#103

 

The CFR to the JS quote is footnote three.

 

I think you may have in inaccurate understanding relating to correct principle on this matter.