God, Agency, And The "prime Directive"

[Duncan]

I wonder how God or Christ has the capacity to pass through a wall and show himself to His disciples? It seems to take a little more knowledge of the laws of physics than we possess right now. How does He get His molecules and atoms to penetrate another set of molecules and atoms without disturbing either set? 

 

Maybe it's because God can communicate with His "creation" on a subatomic level that isn't even available to us in this sphere of existence. If He has that perfect kind of communication ability with the objects that He has created,  don't you think He might have the ability to predict their behavior with perfection?

 

 

I agree but that opens up another avenue of questioning! just about the nature of revelation, which isn't so clear cut. I gave a blessing to a lady a month ago who is convinced she got a revelation in the Temple to marry a guy she has never dated and he married someone else just before that, and so now she is left in a right state

Edited January 4, 2014 by Duncan

[mfbukowski]

I tried to write up this explanation more completely but I found I would need to invent at least two new verb tenses to do it.

That tends always to be the problem in these kind of threads, and is why I avoid them. Word words words- and confusion. That's about how far we get on these.

[Palerider]

I agree but that opens up another avenue of questioning! just about the nature of revelation, which isn't so clear cut. I gave a blessing to a lady a month ago who is convinced she got a revelation in the Temple to marry a guy she has never dated and he married someone else just before that, and so now she is left in a right state

 

Yeah.........don't get me started there.

 

You'll have to have a believing Mormon explain how that works. I have an explanation but I won't share it here.....

[Duncan]

Yeah.........don't get me started there.

 

You'll have to have a believing Mormon explain how that works. I have an explanation but I won't share it here.....

 

 

is it too sacred to share?

[Robert F. Smith]

is it too sacred to share?

Hey, don't get him started.  He may end up telling us about Eleanor Rigby

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9abamcaX6U .

[The Nehor]

I agree but that opens up another avenue of questioning! just about the nature of revelation, which isn't so clear cut. I gave a blessing to a lady a month ago who is convinced she got a revelation in the Temple to marry a guy she has never dated and he married someone else just before that, and so now she is left in a right state

 

I am guessing the Brethren's advice not to try to force revelation got violated there.

[Duncan]

I am guessing the Brethren's advice not to try to force revelation got violated there.

 

 

in our mission it was the Loren C. Dunn push interview/prayer thing...basically do you want to know right now if the Church is true, well let's kneel down together and pray and God will answer you right now, I think I still a zone conf. sheet about it, "spiritual arm twisting"

[Rob Osborn]

I wonder how God or Christ has the capacity to pass through a wall and show himself to His disciples? It seems to take a little more knowledge of the laws of physics than we possess right now. How does He get His molecules and atoms to penetrate another set of molecules and atoms without disturbing either set? 

 

Maybe it's because God can communicate with His "creation" on a subatomic level that isn't even available to us in this sphere of existence. If He has that perfect kind of communication ability with the objects that He has created,  don't you think He might have the ability to predict their behavior with perfection?

You cannot predict behavior to perfection. The nature of intelligence and decision making is endless in scope and can be rather random at times which makes prediction impossible. Like I have brought up before, Suppose you had a pair of dice and you were going to roll them a million times in a row. God possibly cant know beforehand exactly how the dice will fall by my hand. There are literally millions of things we do each day that are rather random that God cant possibly know beforehand, things like how many times I will blink, how many breaths I will take, how many steps I will make, how long it takes to type this message down to the nanosecond, etc. Theses are not perfectly predictable behaviors.

[Palerider]

You cannot predict behavior to perfection. The nature of intelligence and decision making is endless in scope and can be rather random at times which makes prediction impossible. Like I have brought up before, Suppose you had a pair of dice and you were going to roll them a million times in a row. God possibly cant know beforehand exactly how the dice will fall by my hand. There are literally millions of things we do each day that are rather random that God cant possibly know beforehand, things like how many times I will blink, how many breaths I will take, how many steps I will make, how long it takes to type this message down to the nanosecond, etc. Theses are not perfectly predictable behaviors.

 

If you reduce God in His capacity enough then I think you would be right. I just think that His capacity is bigger than we can imagine. 

 

So let's agree to disagree on this one.

[Palerider]

is it too sacred to share?

 

No, not too sacred.    It's one of those, "I'd tell ya but then I'd have ta kill ya" situations.......too much inside information for the un-initiated to possess.

[Rob Osborn]

If you reduce God in His capacity enough then I think you would be right. I just think that His capacity is bigger than we can imagine. 

 

So let's agree to disagree on this one.

Agreed. I have thought long and hard over this for many years. His capacity is indeed great but not so great that he foresaw Satan's fall before he created Lucifer. The agency of intelligence throws the monkey wrench of choice, disobedience/obedience into play of which is not perfectly predictable.

[Palerider]

Agreed. I have thought long and hard over this for many years. His capacity is indeed great but not so great that he foresaw Satan's fall before he created Lucifer. The agency of intelligence throws the monkey wrench of choice, disobedience/obedience into play of which is not perfectly predictable.

 

Well, I also think this may be one of the problems that emerge with Mormon theology.

 

I was reading on a mormon site (not anti-mormon by any means, really straight down the line) a couple of years ago where someone mentioned that (and this is a paraphrase) in view of the "God used to be a man" theory, Mormons have a little tendency to make God into the "very wise old man who lives just down the road", rather than that omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being, who's Spirit fills the immensity of space and communicates with all that he has created therein, whether it be animated or not, for whom time does not exist but all things are present before Him, past, present and future.........Well, you get the idea.

 

To me, this is the only Being that has the capacity to offer Eternal salvation, and I am just amazed that He takes an interest in us.   

Edited January 4, 2014 by Palerider

[Rob Osborn]

Well, I also think this may be one of the problems that emerge with Mormon theology.

 

I was reading on a mormon site (not anti-mormon by any means, really straight down the line) a couple of years ago where someone mentioned that (and this is a paraphrase) in view of the "God used to be a man" theory, Mormons have a little tendency to make God into the "very wise old man who lives just down the road", rather than that omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being, who's Spirit fills the immensity of space and communicates with all that he has created therein, whether it be animated or not, for whom time does not exist but all things are present before Him, past, present and future.........Well, you get the idea.

 

To me, this is the only Being that has the capacity to offer Eternal salvation, and I am just amazed that He takes an interest in us.

I dont tend to conceptualize God as being a entity that is outside of time and encompassing all space. What does it mean to say all things are present before him? Does this mean that the past present and future exist all at the same time? What would that entail- that we exist as already saved beings in God's presence 200 million yars in the future while at the same time we haven't come into existence being 200 million years in the past?

I tend to have the concept that God is a personage who has a spirit and body with passions, desires, feelings etc. I see God as a being who while knowing all that can be known, still enters into a myriad of different situations that are both new and entertaining for him which challenge his intellect and push him to even higher planes of perfection.

[BCSpace]

1) What is its purpose? In other words, why is it so essential for us to have moral agency?

 

The Church defines agency as the ability AND freedom to choose. The doctrinal implications are obvious but I think the why is simply that being able to do it ourselves rather than having it done or decided for us puts us in the same position that God is in and becoming like God is the goal.

[Duncan]

The Church defines agency as the ability AND freedom to choose. The doctrinal implications are obvious but I think the why is simply that being able to do it ourselves rather than having it done or decided for us puts us in the same position that God is in and becoming like God is the goal.

 

 

just as an aside what do you think the part goals play in the Church and the agency of others? I am supposed to make goals for others aka a ward mission plan and I don't think it's my part to decide how others are to do missionary work

[BCSpace]

just as an aside what do you think the part goals play in the Church and the agency of others? I am supposed to make goals for others aka a ward mission plan and I don't think it's my part to decide how others are to do missionary work

 

I don't think a ward mission plan requires you to make goals for others.  Instead one is making goals for oneself to convince or entice others.

[Calm]

Given Duncan's prior experience I wouldn't be surprised if he was told to make a list of goals for those working with him...kind of like some missionaries being told their mission goal is to have so many contacts made, lessons given and baptism per month rather than letting them judge what is an appropriate goal for themselves.

I would agree if you are saying the better way is to try and persuade others to adopt such goals rather than insist that they do so. I don't believe that one can really do that...have a personal goal that has been given to you by another. To internalize something it has to become yours. Having imposed goals is more likely to create resistance or a sense of failure.

Edited January 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[Kind Debater]

Agreed. I have thought long and hard over this for many years. His capacity is indeed great but not so great that he foresaw Satan's fall before he created Lucifer.

Newbie question -- is that official LDS doctrine, that God didn't know Satan would rebel? I did a quick search at lds.org but didn't see anything to that effect.

The agency of intelligence throws the monkey wrench of choice, disobedience/obedience into play of which is not perfectly predictable.

How do you interpret Psalm 139, which basically says that God knows our thoughts?

If God can't even predict the outcome of a die you roll (which, btw, contradicts Proverbs 16:33), how could he predict Judas' betrayal of Jesus centuries before Judas was born? How could God tell Rebekah that Esau would serve Jacob (Romans 9:10-12)?

[Duncan]

Given Duncan's prior experience I wouldn't be surprised if he was told to make a list of goals for those working with him...kind of like some missionaries being told their mission goal is to have so many contacts made, lessons given and baptism per month rather than letting them judge what is an appropriate goal for themselves.

I would agree if you are saying the better way is to try and persuade others to adopt such goals rather than insist that they do so. I don't believe that one can really do that...have a personal goal that has been given to you by another. To internalize something it has to become yours. Having imposed goals is more likely to create resistance or a sense of failure.

 

 

EXACTLEY!!! I do better when I set my own goals and I see leaders as more like coaches who help people bring out the best in themselves. I just got an email from the Stake Pres. and we have to come up with these things, the Bishop is a semi retired pharmacist and wants detailed who is going to do what when type things and the Stake Pres. is a business guy and it's about stats, graphs and "crunching the numbers"  In all honesty last year, 2013, my job turned into a therapist (which is fine) and the asst. and I trued for the elders and sisters not to kill each other or themselves, we had a sister who was cutting herself. Saving the missionaries was and is a paramount concern of mine during this hastening the work thing

Edited January 5, 2014 by Duncan

[Calm]

Newbie question -- is that official LDS doctrine, that God didn't know Satan would rebel?

Definitely not.

Rob has some unusual interpretations as do many posters here...always check if you are unfamiliar with it.

[Rob Osborn]

Newbie question -- is that official LDS doctrine, that God didn't know Satan would rebel? I did a quick search at lds.org but didn't see anything to that effect.

How do you interpret Psalm 139, which basically says that God knows our thoughts?

If God can't even predict the outcome of a die you roll (which, btw, contradicts Proverbs 16:33), how could he predict Judas' betrayal of Jesus centuries before Judas was born? How could God tell Rebekah that Esau would serve Jacob (Romans 9:10-12)?

These are deep philosophical paradoxes that are not easily dealt with.

Knowing if Lucifer would rebel is paramount in the timing of it. If God truly knows all things before they happen and God creates Lucifer and raises him in heaven, then you have a paradox of God who isn't evil knowingly creating and establishing evil. This creates a paramount problem because God has to not only knowingly create him to fall but he also has to raise him in light and truth giving him a position of high authority and then causing circumstances that lead to his fall and banishment. This is not the God I know.

I picture God as raising Lucifer in truth and light and then at some point God forsees his fall because of the choices Lucifer has made and the pattern of disobedience and lies emerging. If Satan is the destroyer, why would God knowingly create a being that would destroy his other creations? The only way Lucifers fall makes sense is that God didn''t initially create him to fall but rather to become like himself just as the rest of us. Because God gives us choice and laws within those choices it puts God in the position of having influence on his creation but not actual providence concerning our destiny which is ultimately up to us.

[Calm]

Unless God didn't create Lucifer but rather created/organised a form that would allow him to progress as he does all intelligences and evil existed outside of Lucifer already and it would have occurred anyway even if Lucifer had not made his choice. Given that a third part followed him, I suspect there was likely a number of others who allowed their nature to promote their pride to the point they saw themselves desiring God's glory, Lucifer was just their leader.

If God gives everyone the same opportunities eventually to progress, would it be just for him to withhold progression from one because he knew that person would corrupt his agency? Why even bother with mortality then?

While I accept the possibility that God knows what is possible to be known, but not what isn't (meaning the future), I do be that it just may be also possible that for him knowing the future is possible. I don't think human understanding of time is so great as to rule it out.

Perhaps even outer darkness is better than eternally existing as an unorganised intelligence.

Edited January 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[changed]

Well, I also think this may be one of the problems that emerge with Mormon theology.

 

I was reading on a mormon site (not anti-mormon by any means, really straight down the line) a couple of years ago where someone mentioned that (and this is a paraphrase) in view of the "God used to be a man" theory, Mormons have a little tendency to make God into the "very wise old man who lives just down the road", rather than that omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being, who's Spirit fills the immensity of space and communicates with all that he has created therein, whether it be animated or not, for whom time does not exist but all things are present before Him, past, present and future.........Well, you get the idea.

 

To me, this is the only Being that has the capacity to offer Eternal salvation, and I am just amazed that He takes an interest in us.   

I'm a Mormon and I believe in a God who is "omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being, who's Spirit fills the immensity of space and communicates with all that he has created therein, whether it be animated or not, for whom time does not exist but all things are present before Him, past, present and future....."  if you go on LDS.org, and search for any of the terms "omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent" you will find that the official doctrines of the church agree with your viewpoint of God.  imo, the point of the Lorenzo Snow couplet "“As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be.” is to exhault man, rather than degrade God.

Consdier what we are promised to become, and who that requires us to be (past, present, and future). 

“It would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”― C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory

[changed]

Unless God didn't create Lucifer but rather created/organised a form that would allow him to progress as he does all intelligences and evil existed outside of Lucifer already and it would have occurred anyway even if Lucifer had not made his choice. Given that a third part followed him, I suspect there was likely a number of others who allowed their nature to promote their pride to the point they saw themselves desiring God's glory, Lucifer was just their leader.

If God gives everyone the same opportunities eventually to progress, would it be just for him to withhold progression from one because he knew that person would corrupt his agency? Why even bother with mortality then?

While I accept the possibility that God knows what is possible to be known, but not what isn't (meaning the future), I do be that it just may be also possible that for him knowing the future is possible. I don't think human understanding of time is so great as to rule it out.

Perhaps even outer darkness is better than eternally existing as an unorganised intelligence.

I think justice requires that everyone is given the same opportunities. 

Knowing the future does not take away agency - I can know what will be on TV without taking away anyone's agency, "knowing" something, and "causing" something are two very different things - agency is about who is the cause.  God is all knowing (search all-knowing on LDS.org if you don't believe me, read the scriptures etc. etc.) Agecny existed in the past even though the past is set in stone and known, agency also exists in the future even though the future is set in stone and known.  Some people love new doctrine (rather than sticking to the old "boring" way of seeing everything), there seems to be a group here who does this from time to time but I assure you, the official doctrines of the church affirm God's omniscience. 

[Rob Osborn]

I think justice requires that everyone is given the same opportunities. 

Knowing the future does not take away agency - I can know what will be on TV without taking away anyone's agency, "knowing" something, and "causing" something are two very different things - agency is about who is the cause.  God is all knowing (search all-knowing on LDS.org if you don't believe me, read the scriptures etc. etc.) Agecny existed in the past even though the past is set in stone and known, agency also exists in the future even though the future is set in stone and known.  Some people love new doctrine (rather than sticking to the old "boring" way of seeing everything), there seems to be a group here who does this from time to time but I assure you, the official doctrines of the church affirm God's omniscience.

If the future is known and set in stone that would be predestination, a doctrine not accepted by LDS doctrine