God, Agency, And The "prime Directive"

[Duncan]

You should have read the Palerider's wise comments more carefully.

 

Patriarchal blessings are not fortune-telling, tarot, or ouija.  None are inevitable, including Jesus' own real test here among us.  God guarantees to us all the right to fail and right of first refusal.  Otherwise the test is meaningless.  However, you should take it all in stride.  After all, virtually everyone will be saved through acceptance of the Gospel here or hereafter.  Palerider's "Earthschool Experience" is the reason we are here.  So don't be so judgmental on your brothers.  Just love them, and expect that you'll all be together on the other side.

 

The Jewish Misnah tractate Abot says that "All is foreseen, and yet free choice is given."  That is also good LDS theology.

 

 

I wasn't judging them! I was saying that they currently aren't active and not saying they are infidels or something-I don't get why God would make promises he knew in advance we couldn't or wouldn't keep, like cinepro said some people's agency can be sabotaged by others and some can be entirely eradicated

[Rob Osborn]

Not really sure the idea that God knows the future yet still gives us agency is a sound doctrine or even one that benefits us individually. If God could know exactly how we would choose or what we are to choose then it creates paramount problems not easily remedied.

[Palerider]

So you admit first off that the Patriarchs gave patriarchal blessings, but, since they seem absent from early Christianity, therefore they are "without foundation"?  I thought that the Restoration was about the Restoration of all things.

 

I think like numerous principles given in the early history of God's people they had their time and place. But when people have access to the Second Comforter through faith in Christ, I don't believe they have the necessity of an intermediary, when they can go directly to the source.

 

After all, when all people (Jew and Gentile) are accepted as children of the covenant that Christ has made with us, what is the real purpose of having someone declare lineage? Lineage is no longer a factor. More than being redundant it is unnecessary.

 

Since we are restoring "all things" should we also restore the prohibition regarding the eating of pork?

Edited January 3, 2014 by Palerider

[mfbukowski]

When you think about it agency is life itself.

 

Even amoebas have agency to move after food and avoid painful stimuli.  One cannot be alive and NOT have agency.  To limit agency God would have to remove all life from the earth, and I don't think that is likely, do you?

[Palerider]

Not really sure the idea that God knows the future yet still gives us agency is a sound doctrine or even one that benefits us individually. If God could know exactly how we would choose or what we are to choose then it creates paramount problems not easily remedied.

 

And yet if God doesn't know the end from the beginning, how can he offer us salvation? If He doesn't know how things are going to turn out that means he can be surprised with new knowledge and that creates even more problems.

 

If a sparrow can't fall from a limb without him knowing, and the hairs of our head are numbered, then I think we have to go with all the implications of omniscience.

[mfbukowski]

 

We can be cynical about all this, of course, and many take that path -- with plenty of good Hobbesian reasons why life is "nasty, brutish, and short."

 

However, on the positive side, Christoph Hauert says that, even though some prefer shame, “honour has an equally strong effect on encouraging people to cooperate for the common good,”* while W. E. Deming says that “A management style based on cooperation rather than competition brings joy to workers and long-term success to the market.”**

 

In “response to Social Darwinism and to Thomas Huxley’s “The Struggle for Existence,” Peter Kropotkin instead focused “on altruism from sociobiology,” arguing “that anarchist societies were feasible because of an inborn human nature to do good.” +  Indeed, cooperation rather than competition is the very “fabric of society.”++

 

Finally, one group of scientists concluded, based on our long human history as hunter-gatherers, that “human ancestral social structure may be the root of cumulative culture and cooperation and, ultimately, human uniqueness,” and that this  “promotes interaction among residential groups,” and that “the unique composition of human ancestral groups promotes cooperation among large groups of non-kin.”#

 

How do you spell altruism?

 

*  “Shame and Honor Increase Cooperation,” online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601131759.htm .

**  Deming, The New Economics: For Industry, Government, Education, 2nd ed. (Cambridge, Mass.: MIT Press, 2000). 

+   Kropotkin, Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (London: W. Heinemann, 1902/ reprint 1914/1955/2005). 

++  Lee Dugatkin, Cheating Monkeys and Citizen Bees: The Nature of Cooperation in Animals and Humans (Free Press, 1999/ Cambridge, MA: Harvard Univ. Press, 2000). 

#  ScienceDaily.com, Mar 11, 2011, online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110310141422.htm , summarizing Kim R. Hill,  et al.,  “Co-Residence Patterns in Hunter-Gatherer Societies Show Unique Human Social Structure.” Science, 331/6022 (2011):1286-1289.

 

 

 

Absolutely.  Altruism itself is never purely altruistic.  It has survival value.

 

What kind of human would not save a baby left in a dumpster?  We are all in this together and feel that deep down inside us.  The survival of the species demands it.

[The Nehor]

I get that but why does God make promises to people via Patriarchal Blessings, priesthood blessings, etc. to people he knows will go inactive? If he knows how they'll use their agency so much so to make promises to them then doesn't he also know they'll split on the Church?

 

Yep, he knows. The promises were still valid if lived. I think the could argue that the whole thing is unfair if your patriarchal blessing told you in advance you were leaving the church and going to hell. Instead you get a promise and fail to qualify and then go to hell. Being told you are going to hell prematurely would destroy the Plan. 

[The Nehor]

 

We can be cynical about all this, of course, and many take that path -- with plenty of good Hobbesian reasons why life is "nasty, brutish, and short."

 

At least the shortness limits the nastiness and brutishness.

[Rob Osborn]

And yet if God doesn't know the end from the beginning, how can he offer us salvation? If He doesn't know how things are going to turn out that means he can be surprised with new knowledge and that creates even more problems.

 

If a sparrow can't fall from a limb without him knowing, and the hairs of our head are numbered, then I think we have to go with all the implications of omniscience.

God makes decisions otherwise there is no agency. If Gid makes decisions then there is choice in the eternal providence of the heavens. Thus, God makes the future happen by not knowing exactly how every hair will fall. He still brings to pass His will but obly because he makes decisions choosing one path of many.

[The Nehor]

God makes decisions otherwise there is no agency. If Gid makes decisions then there is choice in the eternal providence of the heavens. Thus, God makes the future happen by not knowing exactly how every hair will fall. He still brings to pass His will but obly because he makes decisions choosing one path of many.

 

I disagree completely. If God is not omniscient then he has no business laying down universal laws, demanding absolute obedience, or making promises for the future.

[Palerider]

I disagree completely. If God is not omniscient then he has no business laying down universal laws, demanding absolute obedience, or making promises for the future.

 

I agree. The "decisions" if one wants to call them that, were already made from the beginning and won't be changed midstream.

 

For instance when Moses pleads with God to stop a plague He has declared on Israel, He has already forseen that Moses would make the request and so grants it.

 

It may appear to mortals that He has changed His mind but in reality things are going just as He foresaw they would. I think God is a lot smarter than we give Him credit for..........

[Rob Osborn]

I disagree completely. If God is not omniscient then he has no business laying down universal laws, demanding absolute obedience, or making promises for the future.

Omniscient has not much to do with knowing exactly the entire minute little details of the future before they happen. We have endlessly discussed this before on this forum and the truth is that in order for God to be Omnipotent he has to have free will or "choice". If the exact details of the future is already written out then God is not the author of it and is only a mere puppet to that which is already set in stone. This means God is not capable of making any decision as there are no decisions possible to be made. Thus, God is not Omnipotent or providencial- he has no power. In order for God to be omnipotent he has to be able to make decisions. Decisions demand that the principle of multiple futures or outcomes be existant and not known beforehand which path one is going to take to reach desired outcome. Gods will still comes to pass, not because the future is already set in stone but because God is Omnipotent in causing His course to be unchanged by making decisions that counter Satan and other unforseen forces that try to disrupt it. In order for God's plans to actually happen he must make a myriad of decisions and carry out those decisions as actions that ensure his plans come to pass.

[Rob Osborn]

I agree. The "decisions" if one wants to call them that, were already made from the beginning and won't be changed midstream.

 

For instance when Moses pleads with God to stop a plague He has declared on Israel, He has already forseen that Moses would make the request and so grants it.

 

It may appear to mortals that He has changed His mind but in reality things are going just as He foresaw they would. I think God is a lot smarter than we give Him credit for..........

Do you believe God makes decisions?

[Calm]

that is an intriguing idea! it seems like for most the test comes in the next life, I don't see how mind you if you were some drunk in the 18th century who died without ever hearing the truth, they would go to the next life still a drunk, unable to overcome their addiction here-that's what I read in the scriptures anyways!

I look on it something like the pre-existence was the true/false part, earth life multiple choice and postearth spirit world essay questions, where some of the essays are 'looking back on mortality, what would you conclude about ....... and how does that change how you will act in the next phase of your existence.

 

I think there are likely a few more 'parts' before judgment.  Wouldn't be surprised if we had a spirit experience where we didn't have knowledge of our past two estates and had to deal with stuff we refused to deal with here until we got that squared away and then after we went through that, another one where we had knowledge of our selves and had to go through the repentance and forgiveness process by engaging with those we had hurt and the two of us going through a healing process together or if we refused to change, suffer as we had caused others to suffer so even if we didn't repent we would have full knowledge of the pain others had suffered because of us so we would fully recognized the justice of God in not forgiving us when we had refused to care ourselves and clipping our wings so we could no longer harm others, and then we would have a final one (possibly more before that focused on development of certain skills and empathies, being given chances to bear greater responsibilities to see if we liked it or not) with full knowledge of all of our own existences and everyone else so we could tie it all together, appraise it and then decide what we would respond when God asks us "what are your plans for the next several billion years or more?"

 

I think the description is kept simple so we focus more on the here and now, but there is such a huge gap between God and the level that mankind is currently at, it seems unlikely to me it is only one more step until we get to the point where we are able to accept the gift of the Atonement with all that means for exaltation in a fully meaningful and eternal process.

 

Which is why I have the sig I do....

Edited January 3, 2014 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

Omniscient has not much to do with knowing exactly the entire minute little details of the future before they happen. We have endlessly discussed this before on this forum and the truth is that in order for God to be Omnipotent he has to have free will or "choice". If the exact details of the future is already written out then God is not the author of it and is only a mere puppet to that which is already set in stone. This means God is not capable of making any decision as there are no decisions possible to be made. Thus, God is not Omnipotent or providencial- he has no power. In order for God to be omnipotent he has to be able to make decisions. Decisions demand that the principle of multiple futures or outcomes be existant and not known beforehand which path one is going to take to reach desired outcome. Gods will still comes to pass, not because the future is already set in stone but because God is Omnipotent in causing His course to be unchanged by making decisions that counter Satan and other unforseen forces that try to disrupt it. In order for God's plans to actually happen he must make a myriad of decisions and carry out those decisions as actions that ensure his plans come to pass.

I disagree with your conception of what the truth is. I do not accept that just because the future is knowable it is a rigid lockstep and God is powerless. I hesitate to say this but God makes decisions and creates the future. The reason I hesitate is that I think the tense is off. God does not come to a crossroads and make a decision. He makes all decisions outside of what we would call time. He chooses the future and also knows what it will be at all times. It is a mindset utterly foreign to us but I suspect it is the beginning of understanding. It is probably less thorough an explanation then a young child's conception of what their father does for work every day but it is a start.

I tried to write up this explanation more completely but I found I would need to invent at least two new verb tenses to do it.

[Rob Osborn]

I disagree with your conception of what the truth is. I do not accept that just because the future is knowable it is a rigid lockstep and God is powerless. I hesitate to say this but God makes decisions and creates the future. The reason I hesitate is that I think the tense is off. God does not come to a crossroads and make a decision. He makes all decisions outside of what we would call time. He chooses the future and also knows what it will be at all times. It is a mindset utterly foreign to us but I suspect it is the beginning of understanding. It is probably less thorough an explanation then a young child's conception of what their father does for work every day but it is a start.

I tried to write up this explanation more completely but I found I would need to invent at least two new verb tenses to do it.

That didn't make much sense to me. You say you believe he makes decisions on things, including the future in a frame outside of time or the present? So then what you are really saying is that he writes our futures? So then we don't have any agency because he chooses the future and knows it beforehand?

[Palerider]

Do you believe God makes decisions?

 

I think you're asking the wrong question.

 

What you're asking is "Does God change His plan if someone or something acts in a way He didn't anticipate?"

 

That's like Him saying, "Whoa, I didn't see that one coming".   Or, "Now I've got to re-route all those people that died when Mt. Vesuvius erupted 2 years earlier than I thought it would...." 

 

I think the scripture reinforces His omniscience.

 

Luke 6:8:

 

"But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth."

 

Psalm139:16 ASV:

 

"Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me , When as yet there was none of them."

 

[The Nehor]

That didn't make much sense to me. You say you believe he makes decisions on things, including the future in a frame outside of time or the present? So then what you are really saying is that he writes our futures? So then we don't have any agency because he chooses the future and knows it beforehand?

No, He knows our futures. He has seen them. They are more real to Him then the past or present is to us. We are not going to surprise Him. We make choices. God knows what we will do and makes adjustments but that is also wrong. It suggest ps a cause and effect and things happening in sequence. God knew He would have to make those adjustments from the beginning.

Again, I need more verb tenses.

Edited January 3, 2014 by The Nehor

[Palerider]

Omniscient has not much to do with knowing exactly the entire minute little details of the future before they happen. We have endlessly discussed this before on this forum and the truth is that in order for God to be Omnipotent he has to have free will or "choice". If the exact details of the future is already written out then God is not the author of it and is only a mere puppet to that which is already set in stone. This means God is not capable of making any decision as there are no decisions possible to be made. Thus, God is not Omnipotent or providencial- he has no power. In order for God to be omnipotent he has to be able to make decisions. Decisions demand that the principle of multiple futures or outcomes be existant and not known beforehand which path one is going to take to reach desired outcome. Gods will still comes to pass, not because the future is already set in stone but because God is Omnipotent in causing His course to be unchanged by making decisions that counter Satan and other unforseen forces that try to disrupt it. In order for God's plans to actually happen he must make a myriad of decisions and carry out those decisions as actions that ensure his plans come to pass.

 

I disagree with your conclusion. Of course God makes decisions. The question is WHEN does he make the decisions. If he has true omniscience without any limits as you impose, then He can foresee the beginning from the end before the first creative act has been accomplished.

 

It's much more akin to the perfect architect making His decisions before starting the actual building process only on celestial strength steroids.............

[Rob Osborn]

Do you think God knows right now how many grains of salt you will sprinkle on your dinner two years from now? This is what you are claiming is it not?

[The Nehor]

Do you think God knows right now how many grains of salt you will sprinkle on your dinner two years from now? This is what you are claiming is it not?

Yes, though I would delete the "right now" part. He simply knows.

[Rob Osborn]

Yes, though I would delete the "right now" part. He simply knows.

Well, I guess we think different on the matter then. I believe there are some tangibles that God just cant know because of the myriad of possibilities and our agency playing out on those endless mindless things. He probably does know quite well how we choose and what choices we will make when that possibility becomes present. But, he cannot know such minute details years in advance dealing with everyday random decisions.

[Duncan]

Well, I guess we think different on the matter then. I believe there are some tangibles that God just cant know because of the myriad of possibilities and our agency playing out on those endless mindless things. He probably does know quite well how we choose and what choices we will make when that possibility becomes present. But, he cannot know such minute details years in advance dealing with everyday random decisions.

 

 

he knew 2000 years in advance that Martin Harris had slippery fingers with the BOM pages but I don't know what to think about other things 

[The Nehor]

Well, I guess we think different on the matter then. I believe there are some tangibles that God just cant know because of the myriad of possibilities and our agency playing out on those endless mindless things. He probably does know quite well how we choose and what choices we will make when that possibility becomes present. But, he cannot know such minute details years in advance dealing with everyday random decisions.

Why can't He? I do not envision God traveling through time as we do if He does at all so I see no need for Him to know more as time passes. Again, description is imperfect. I really need to invent those new tenses.

[Palerider]

Well, I guess we think different on the matter then. I believe there are some tangibles that God just cant know because of the myriad of possibilities and our agency playing out on those endless mindless things. He probably does know quite well how we choose and what choices we will make when that possibility becomes present. But, he cannot know such minute details years in advance dealing with everyday random decisions.

 

I wonder how God or Christ has the capacity to pass through a wall and show himself to His disciples? It seems to take a little more knowledge of the laws of physics than we possess right now. How does He get His molecules and atoms to penetrate another set of molecules and atoms without disturbing either set? 

 

Maybe it's because God can communicate with His "creation" on a subatomic level that isn't even available to us in this sphere of existence. If He has that perfect kind of communication ability with the objects that He has created,  don't you think He might have the ability to predict their behavior with perfection?