Anti - Anti - Mormon (A Labeling Difficulty)

[Five Solas]

On a recent thread ("miraculous" Anti Conversion Stories) I was labeled “an anti-Mormon” (post #78).  The primary evidence offered was my membership at Mars Hill Church and defense of the preaching pastor (which I had disclosed previously on another thread).

 

The purpose of the label was to discredit my observations and perspective.  And while cheap ad-hominem convinces few—I’m still a little irked.  Here’s what really bothers me about it:

 

I’m in no way anti-Mormon because I’m in no way anti any person, regardless how they choose to identify themselves (at root, we’re all image-bearers of God, Genesis 1:26).   I love Mormons.  I have a number of them in my family.  Not mere words, I sacrifice my time and my money—gladly and without condition.  But I am critical of the doctrines, policies and practices promoted by the LDS Church.  And I’m also critical of the LDS Church’s cultural implications (e.g., the ridiculous liquor laws when I visit family in Utah).

 

To make political analogy, I’m critical of much Republican Party ideology.  But no reasonable person labels people with my views “anti-Republican”—doing so would message hostility that isn’t felt and isn’t fair.  (Instead they call us Democrats, and I’ve no problem with that.  Occasional hysterics & poor judgment notwithstanding—we’re all Americans when the rubber meets the road.)

 

In my mind, there should be sharp distinction made between being “anti-Mormon” (a thankfully rare pathological condition) vs. opposition to a system of beliefs & practices.  Can we start making that distinction now and thereby drop the anti-Mormon label on this board?  99+% of the time it’s unfair and it never aids the discussion.

 

If not, why not?

 

--Erik

______________________

You labeled me
I’ll label you
So I dub thee unforgiven

--Metallica, 1991 

[bluebell]

Would anti-Mormonism work for you?

For those people who are looking for a quick way to sum up your beliefs regarding Mormonism?

On a board like this, such can sometimes be useful because people can loose track of the beliefs of each poster and the motives for why people are posting here.

[cdowis]

I think people conflate "critic" with "antimormon"  --  I used to do it myself just out of laziness.  I certainly now understand the difference and I really don't know any true antis here on this forum.

 

If you want to see antimormons, just go over to the youtube discussions and certain other discussion groups.

[Tacenda]

Would anti-Mormonism work for you?

For those people who are looking for a quick way to sum up your beliefs regarding Mormonism?

On a board like this, such can sometimes be useful because people can loose track of the beliefs of each poster and the motives for why people are posting here.

You got it right!  Most are not anti Mormons, but anti Mormonism.  That's why so many keep their foot in the door.  They have loved ones in Mormonism.  And they know the caliber of people they are and hold on so long to it because of the people in the church.  They are anti or critical, because they think they know something that the LDS don't and are being deceived.  That's where their anger comes in.  They may not know the full picture and stop midpoint on one of the several items that put people in that category.  Or they do know all they can know and look at it differently.  They usually were once very stalwart members.  Some were even Mormon apologists!  I guess it will always come down to having faith. 

Edited December 31, 2013 by Tacenda

[Five Solas]

Would anti-Mormonism work for you?

For those people who are looking for a quick way to sum up your beliefs regarding Mormonism?

On a board like this, such can sometimes be useful because people can loose track of the beliefs of each poster and the motives for why people are posting here.

It's certainly an improvement as it shifts the opposition from a person to a system.  if I were to state it in as few words as possible (without missing any essential idea), I might describe myself as a Christian critic of the LDS Church.  Anti suggests hostility and mindless opposition (to me at least).  So my personal preference would be to avoid its use entirely, although I'm not going to ask or expect that of anyone else because I doubt everyone else thinks of it in the same way. 

 

Thanks bluebell,

 

--Erik

[mfbukowski]

It's certainly an improvement as it shifts the opposition from a person to a system.  if I were to state it in as few words as possible (without missing any essential idea), I might describe myself as a Christian critic of the LDS Church.  Anti suggests hostility and mindless opposition (to me at least).  So my personal preference would be to avoid its use entirely, although I'm not going to ask or expect that of anyone else because I doubt everyone else thinks of it in the same way. 

 

Thanks bluebell,

 

--Erik

And that suggests that we are not Christian.

 

Got any other insults?

[CA Steve]

Are our missionaries Anti-(insert current religion of prospective converts)?

[EllenMaksoud]

Would anti-Mormonism work for you?

For those people who are looking for a quick way to sum up your beliefs regarding Mormonism?

On a board like this, such can sometimes be useful because people can loose track of the beliefs of each poster and the motives for why people are posting here.

After giving the matter a lot of thought, I am a "company girl", a Molly Mormon, or as close as a person, who some think should not be a member, can get.   I think that an unknown percentage of the Members who complain about Mormon doctrines are looking for a conscience free way to violate them. As to Anti folk who are not Mormon, those I have encountered often do not actually know what Mormons believe. One woman who confronted me in the checkout line at a local grocery store during a casual conversation, "Your one of them Mormons aren't you? You don't even believe in Jesus Christ". To which I just laughed and said that she had no idea what Mormons believe.

 

So far, most of the Ex-Mormon Anti folk I have encountered are dealing with some hurt or injustice, real or imagined. One left the church because of their gay son, another left because of some ruling of the Bishop. I don't know what to say. Mormons sure polarize people.   Maybe their doing what they should.

[Tacenda]

Are our missionaries Anti-(insert current religion of prospective converts)?

Yes, but in a nice way.  No, I think that's why we get the anti's that are not ex LDS or NOM's per se.  These anti's are out there because they think our missionaries are coming for their families.  That's a whole different ball game there.    

[Vance]

I love Mormons.

Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

I have a number of them in my family.

So? Again, who are you trying to convince, us or yourself.

But I am critical of the doctrines, policies and practices promoted by the LDS Church.

Ok, so you are critical of Mormon doctrines, Mormon policies, and Mormon practices.

Sounds "anti-Mormon" to me.

And I’m also critical of the LDS Church’s cultural implications

So, you are critical of Mormon cultural implications, how is that not "anti-Mormon"?

I am critical of the 5 solas, doesn't that make me "anti" 5 solas?

(Isn't five solas a contradiction?)

[mfbukowski]

Are our missionaries Anti-(insert current religion of prospective converts)?

Sure they are.

But I don't have a problem with the label anti-Mormon either. We all have to stand for something- if you are against something stand up and be counted!

And yes, I am an anti-Democrat, so there!!

[mfbukowski]

Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

So? Again, who are you trying to convince, us or yourself.

Ok, so you are critical of Mormon doctrines, Mormon policies, and Mormon practices.

Sounds "anti-Mormon" to me.

So, you are critical of Mormon cultural implications, how is that not "anti-Mormon"?

I am critical of the 5 solas, doesn't that make me "anti" 5 solas?

(Isn't five solas a contradiction?)

Lol- I hadn't seen your post when I posted.

As usual,

[ERayR]

You got it right!  Most are not anti Mormons, but anti Mormonism.  That's why so many keep their foot in the door.  They have loved ones in Mormonism.  And they know the caliber of people they are and hold on so long to it because of the people in the church.  They are anti or critical, because they think they know something that the LDS don't and are being deceived.  That's where their anger comes in.  They may not know the full picture and stop midpoint on one of the several items that put people in that category.  Or they do know all they can know and look at it differently.  They usually were once very stalwart members.  Some were even Mormon apologists!  I guess it will always come down to having faith. 

 

The definition of anti is very simple: 

an·ti /ˈænti, ˈænˌtaɪ/ preposition

informal : opposed to (something or someone) : against

 

To decide if someone is an anti-Mormon is quite simple.  If they are against it in word or deed they are anti-Mormon. 

[volgadon]

And that suggests that we are not Christian.

 

Got any other insults?

 

Right. When someone consistently denies us our most basic identity, it is hard not to consider them as being against us, hence an anti-Mormon.

[cdowis]

The definition of anti is very simple: 

an·ti /ˈænti, ˈænˌtaɪ/ preposition

informal : opposed to (something or someone) : against

 

To decide if someone is an anti-Mormon is quite simple.  If they are against it in word or deed they are anti-Mormon. 

 

An example is "california boy".   He is highly critical of some of the church's position, but he is not "against" the church.  "Why did the church waste 40 million dollars" etc.

 

The primary goal of the antiMormon is to convince people to lose their faith in the church, basically to destroy the church.

[Tacenda]

The definition of anti is very simple: 

an·ti /ˈænti, ˈænˌtaɪ/ preposition

informal : opposed to (something or someone) : against

 

To decide if someone is an anti-Mormon is quite simple.  If they are against it in word or deed they are anti-Mormon. 

 

Mormon:

n.

1. An ancient prophet believed to have compiled a sacred history of the Americas, which were translated and published by Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon in 1830.

2. A member of the Mormon Church. Also called Latter-day Saint.

adj.

Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church.

 

Mormonism:

1. the doctrines and polity of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, founded in the U.S. in 1830 by Joseph Smith, especially its adoption of the Book of Mormon as an adjunct to the Bible.

2. adherence to these doctrines or membership in the Mormon Church. Also Mormondom. — Mormon, n., adj.

 

 

See the difference is that anti Mormon is anti person of that faith.  Anti Mormonism is an anti church of that person.  There is a difference to be sure (underline mine).

 

Just my opinion, and several others that are not against Mormons. 

[ERayR]

Mormon:

n.

1. An ancient prophet believed to have compiled a sacred history of the Americas, which were translated and published by Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon in 1830.

2. A member of the Mormon Church. Also called Latter-day Saint.

adj.

Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church.

 

Mormonism:

1. the doctrines and polity of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, founded in the U.S. in 1830 by Joseph Smith, especially its adoption of the Book of Mormon as an adjunct to the Bible.

2. adherence to these doctrines or membership in the Mormon Church. Also Mormondom. — Mormon, n., adj.

 

 

See the difference is that anti Mormon is anti person of that faith.  Anti Mormonism is an anti church of that person.  There is a difference to be sure (underline mine).

 

Just my opinion, and several others that are not against Mormons. 

 

Color emphasis mine.  Anti-Mormon would be Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I never use the term as it really doesn't add much to the converstaion. But most critics are anti-mormons. That is just how it works . They are by definition in opposition to the church.

Now the real thing is do you view being anti as a negative thing? In general I would say it is not a bad thing as we must all take a journey and we must all make the best choice with the light we have. But what ever I just wouldn't get to worked over by people using the term. It's sorta like getting mad when people tell me I am a blind follower. Ireally don't care what they think I only care about what I believe.

[Tacenda]

Color emphasis mine. Anti-Mormon would be Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church.

Exactly.....you proved my point, thank you. Oops, I see that you didn't. My bad, heck with that definition then. Just go by the people themselves, who love the LDS, so much so that some of those anti's think they're helping dispel a myth, not my words but the anti's words. IMO, it's to each his own, more or less. Edited December 31, 2013 by Tacenda

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Sure they are.

But I don't have a problem with the label anti-Mormon either. We all have to stand for something- if you are against something stand up and be counted!

And yes, I am an anti-Democrat, so there!!

I concour.

[ERayR]

Exactly.....you proved my point, thank you.

 

I am sure you posted that anti-Mormon was anti person, you must not be seeing the last part of the definition you are posting,  Again:  Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church.

 

See this part: Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church. Their religion or the Mormon Church is not about the person.

[Tacenda]

I am sure you posted that anti-Mormon was anti person, you must not be seeing the last part of the definition you are posting, Again: Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church.

See this part: Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church. Their religion or the Mormon Church is not about the person.

Go read it again. I quickly edited, apparently the same time you posted this.

[teddyaware]

Mormon:

n.

1. An ancient prophet believed to have compiled a sacred history of the Americas, which were translated and published by Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon in 1830.

2. A member of the Mormon Church. Also called Latter-day Saint.

adj.

Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church.

 

Mormonism:

1. the doctrines and polity of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, founded in the U.S. in 1830 by Joseph Smith, especially its adoption of the Book of Mormon as an adjunct to the Bible.

2. adherence to these doctrines or membership in the Mormon Church. Also Mormondom. — Mormon, n., adj.

 

 

See the difference is that anti Mormon is anti person of that faith.  Anti Mormonism is an anti church of that person.  There is a difference to be sure (underline mine).

 

Just my opinion, and several others that are not against Mormons.

The problem is that virtually all those who are anti-Mormon are also anti-Mormonism. So it would be difficult to separate the anti-Mormons from the adherents to anti-Mormonism. I suppose the only way to tell the difference between the two would be to discern those amongst the number of anti-Mormonismists who are the nastiest, most disrespectful, and most cruel -- they would be the anti-Mormons. But again, I believe it's exceedingly difficult to make that judgment because most adherents to anti-Mormonism are at least a little disrespectful, especially when they converse amongst themselves without a Mormon nearby who would cause them to carefully measure their speech.   

Edited December 31, 2013 by teddyaware

[Analytics]

I consider myself to be a humanist and a secularist.  It wouldn’t be incorrect to call me a metaphysical naturalist.

 

When I politely accept invitations to discuss Mormonism, I am occasionally called an anti-Mormon.  It seems the label is used not because it describes what I believe and why, but rather, it serves as a convenient club with which to beat me and dismiss my views.  Calling people like me “anti-Mormon” is as true and useful as calling believers anti-non-Mormons.

[mfbukowski]

I consider myself to be a humanist and a secularist.  It wouldn’t be incorrect to call me a metaphysical naturalist.

 

When I politely accept invitations to discuss Mormonism, I am occasionally called an anti-Mormon.  It seems the label is used not because it describes what I believe and why, but rather, it serves as a convenient club with which to beat me and dismiss my views.  Calling people like me “anti-Mormon” is as true and useful as calling believers anti-non-Mormons.

As far as I have seen you are a reasonable man, and not anti anything except unreasonableness