Anti - Anti - Mormon (A Labeling Difficulty)

[Storm Rider]

Hi my name is Mike, nice to meet you all.

 

The Jews would follow a Rabbi and say somthing along the lines of "I am of Rabbi Paul" or "I am of Rabbi Steve" and they woud literally stick by that Rabbi's side and learn from him his form of Judaism rituals and philosophy. Usually a Rabbi would pick a boy from his same tribe, and it was the boys hope as well as his familys that if he studied hard enough he would be picked.

 

In the same way Jesus the Son of God the Father was also considered a Rabbi and said to his disciples follow me, a bunch of fishermen and a tax collector all the dregs of society. these men become of Rabbi Christ "Christians" as later titled by the Romans

 

By contrast the Mormons do not follow the teaching of Christ nor do they accept his blood atonement poured out in grace. Instead they follow a man Joseph Smith and porfess to follow Christ, but not without the teachings of Joseph. So in essence they do not follow Christ but only profess it with their mouths. They are followers of Rabbi Joseph after the days of Christ and after the work of Gods holy Word was complete. Making Rabbi Joseph who works outside of scripture a false Rabbi. (for lack of a better description sorry)

 

So in everyway a Christian is anti Mormon whether they like the title or not, because of the Mormon doctrine, we can not stand shoulder to shoulder as brothers. nor even say we are brothers. Those who follow Christ are sons and daughters of God. Those who do not are not, so we are not related.

 

This is a sad truth. sorry if I have missed the point completely to this thread.

 

My poor brother, Mike.  My name is also Mike and in all sincerity you don't know jack about the LDS Church or who the Latter-day Saints follow. This is where the vast majority of the ilk that thinks like you do fail to understand this simple thing. The name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ. Now, who would you say we follow?  Don't let me put words in your mouth or give too many hints, but it could actually be the individual whose name is in the title of the Church.  It is without question the Son of God, the Savior of the world; he who bled for all humanity; who who was crucified; was placed in the tomb; who rose the third day; who ascended into heaven and who will return one day in glory. That is who we follow and always have. 

 

Christians do not follow Peter or Paul who were both prophets and apostles. Nor do we follow Joseph Smith in the same way you do not follow Peter.

 

This is the type of simple-minded rubbish that gives critics a bad name. The sheer ignorance of our beliefs, our teachings, our very being is shocking. 

 

Read this, understand it; never repeat such drivel again.  Joseph Smith said the following:  "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”  That is what Joseph Smith taught.  As of today you can no longer claim ignorance of this fundamental teaching The Church of Jesus Christ.  

Edited January 4, 2014 by Storm Rider

[Not A Mormon]

My poor brother, Mike.  My name is also Mike and in all sincerity you don't know jack about the LDS Church or who the Latter-day Saints follow. This is where the vast majority of the ilk that thinks like you do fail to understand this simple thing. The name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ. Now, who would you say we follow?  Don't let me put words in your mouth or give too many hints, but it could actually be the individual whose name is in the title of the Church.  It is without question the Son of God, the Savior of the world; he who bled for all humanity; who who was crucified; was placed in the tomb; who rose the third day; who ascended into heaven and who will return one day in glory. That is who we follow and always have. 

 

Christians do not follow Peter or Paul who were both prophets and apostles. Nor do we follow Joseph Smith in the same way you do not follow Peter.

 

This is the type of simple-minded rubbish that gives critics a bad name. The sheer ignorance of our beliefs, our teachings, our very being is shocking. 

 

Read this, understand it; never repeat such drivel again.  Joseph Smith said the following:  "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”  That is what Joseph Smith taught.  As of today you can no longer claim ignorance of this fundamental teaching The Church of Jesus Christ.  

I dont know how to do the quote thing yet so bere with me

 

You said

"My poor brother, Mike.  My name is also Mike and in all sincerity you don't know jack about the LDS Church or who the Latter-day Saints follow. This is where the vast majority of the ilk that thinks like you do fail to understand this simple thing. The name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ. Now, who would you say we follow?  Don't let me put words in your mouth or give too many hints, but it could actually be the individual whose name is in the title of the Church. "

 

Oh well if it’s the title of your then how could anyone argue

I know for now on Im going to call my laptop the Fridge. And so I am typing this comment back to you using my fridge. But before you say that I cant call it my Fridge I going to make up a sticky label and stick it to my laptop and call my laptop the fridge and now no one can argue that its not a fridge.

 

 

You Said

"It is without question the Son of God, the Savior of the world; he who bled for all humanity; who who was crucified; was placed in the tomb; who rose the third day; who ascended into heaven and who will return one day in glory. That is who we follow and always have."

 

So all you should need is the bible then right?

It tells you all about creation, the coming of Christ, the ministry of Christ, the death burial and resurrection of Christ, the setting up of the church, and the end times.

What else could you ask for?

 

You Said

"Christians do not follow Peter or Paul who were both prophets and apostles. Nor do we follow Joseph Smith in the same way you do not follow Peter."

 

Mate there are massive differences between The apostles Peter and Paul, and the one who calls himself prophet Mr Smith. Huge!! Shall we go in to them?

 

 You Said

"This is the type of simple-minded rubbish that gives critics a bad name. The sheer ignorance of our beliefs, our teachings, our very being is shocking."

 

Well come on really? I mean you know “Magic glasses” “Look in to your hat” “Black people are inferior” oh that’s right you guys changed that one. I could go on, but I wont. You call me simple minded?

 

You Said

"Read this, understand it; never repeat such drivel again."

Are you used to speaking to people like that, is that how you get your point across?

 

 You Said

"Joseph Smith said the following:  "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”  That is what Joseph Smith taught.  As of today you can no longer claim ignorance of this fundamental teaching The Church of Jesus Christ. "

 

“The fundamental principles of our religion”????

 

So basically Christ has his place, but is not the main subject.

 

Thanks for talking down to me though bro, us uneducated need to be put in our place

[Storm Rider]

In the great words of Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does."  

 

I really don't think there is anything more to say on the topic. God bless you. 

[Not A Mormon]

In the great words of Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does."  

 

I really don't think there is anything more to say on the topic. God bless you. 

Typical

[jwhitlock]

And you base that on what?

 

So your saying as long as a person says they are Christian they are a Christian. In that case Im a car. broom broom.

 

Long experience. When a person (like you) brands a group - not individuals - as non-Christian, saying they don't worship Christ, they have no part in the salvation of Christ, and so on, that is a very clear sign that the person making such a claim (as you are) is not personally a Christian.

 

The second flag is that you claim exclusivity in that your interpretation (and yes, it is your interpretation) of scripture concerning who is a Christian and who is not.

 

We, on the other hand, understand very well that the relationship with Christ is a personal thing that transcends religious affiliation. It's not limited to "Christians" who follow your own narrow set of beliefs, according to you.

 

To pass judgment (as you do) on a stereotyped caricature of an entire group as "non-Christian" - without regard to individual circumstances - is a particularly insidious, non-Christian trait. Of course, you can repent of that attitude and become a true Christian, but it is very clear that someone with a good working relationship with Christ wouldn't make such a claim.

 

Indeed, your rationalizations back to Storm Rider about why Mormons "can't" be Christian belie an arrogance on your part that is entirely foreign to the humility that comes with a true relationship with Christ.

 

We get people like you here all the time who come to pass judgment on us as a group. Good luck with that; if you retain that attitude, it will come back to haunt you when you stand before Christ Himself.

[Thinking]

 

Point out where in this definition of fundamentalist that 'Mormon Fundamentalism' is prohibited.

 

 

fun·da·men·tal·ism  (fnd-mntl-zm)

n.

1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

2.

a. often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.

b. Adherence to the theology of this movement.

 

 

It's not. People on both sides get way too excited about what to call each other. I was simply pointing out that even President Hinckley has declared what a religious group (that is not his own) cannot be called.

[jwhitlock]

It's not. People on both sides get way too excited about what to call each other. I was simply pointing out that even President Hinckley has declared what a religious group (that is not his own) cannot be called.

 

There are differing perspectives on what President Hinckley was actually addressing with his statement. From what I understand, he was concerned that those outside the church were being given the wrong perception that the apostate groups calling themselves Mormon Fundamentalists were still somehow linked to the church. He not only wanted to make it clear that these groups had no connection to the church itself, he wanted to make it clear that there as far as the church itself and people or groups inside the church are concerned, there is no such thing as Mormon Fundamentalism.

 

In this context, it is the same as saying there is no such thing as Orthodox Mormonism, Progressive Mormonism, Reformed Mormonism, and so on. It's either Mormonism as relates to the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or it isn't part of us.

[Thinking]

There are differing perspectives on what President Hinckley was actually addressing with his statement. From what I understand, he was concerned that those outside the church were being given the wrong perception that the apostate groups calling themselves Mormon Fundamentalists were still somehow linked to the church. He not only wanted to make it clear that these groups had no connection to the church itself, he wanted to make it clear that there as far as the church itself and people or groups inside the church are concerned, there is no such thing as Mormon Fundamentalism.

 

In this context, it is the same as saying there is no such thing as Orthodox Mormonism, Progressive Mormonism, Reformed Mormonism, and so on. It's either Mormonism as relates to the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or it isn't part of us.

 

Kind of like those Christians who don't want to allow the Mormons to call themselves Christians.

[jwhitlock]

Kind of like those Christians who don't want to allow the Mormons to call themselves Christians.

 

Not really. There's a difference between disavowing a connection to a specific organization and disavowing a connection to Christ.

[JLHPROF]

Not really. There's a difference between disavowing a connection to a specific organization and disavowing a connection to Christ.

 

I think that at this point in history "Mormonism" doesn't and shouldn't refer to a specific church.  The LDS Church is just one type of "Mormon".  There have been over 100 offshoots that follow the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, and are therefore part of Mormonism.

 

Just as all who follow Christ are called Christian, all who follow Mohammed/Islam are called Muslim, etc.  There are many kinds of followers of Judaism and we still consider them Jewish.

 

It's silly to think that after 200 years that there can only be one church that can legitimately claim the term Mormon, even if there can only be one true church.

Edited January 4, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Not A Mormon]

Long experience. When a person (like you) brands a group - not individuals - as non-Christian, saying they don't worship Christ, they have no part in the salvation of Christ, and so on, that is a very clear sign that the person making such a claim (as you are) is not personally a Christian.

 

The second flag is that you claim exclusivity in that your interpretation (and yes, it is your interpretation) of scripture concerning who is a Christian and who is not.

 

We, on the other hand, understand very well that the relationship with Christ is a personal thing that transcends religious affiliation. It's not limited to "Christians" who follow your own narrow set of beliefs, according to you.

 

To pass judgment (as you do) on a stereotyped caricature of an entire group as "non-Christian" - without regard to individual circumstances - is a particularly insidious, non-Christian trait. Of course, you can repent of that attitude and become a true Christian, but it is very clear that someone with a good working relationship with Christ wouldn't make such a claim.

 

Indeed, your rationalizations back to Storm Rider about why Mormons "can't" be Christian belie an arrogance on your part that is entirely foreign to the humility that comes with a true relationship with Christ.

 

We get people like you here all the time who come to pass judgment on us as a group. Good luck with that; if you retain that attitude, it will come back to haunt you when you stand before Christ Himself.

you Said

"Long experience. When a person (like you) brands a group - not individuals - as non-Christian, saying they don't worship Christ, they have no part in the salvation of Christ, and so on, that is a very clear sign that the person making such a claim (as you are) is not personally a Christian."

 

Ok..once again based on what?

 

You Said

"The second flag is that you claim exclusivity in that your interpretation (and yes, it is your interpretation) of scripture concerning who is a Christian and who is not."

 

Bibles pretty clear on that, I thought

I am the way the truth and the life nobody comes to the Father but through me.

 

Yu Said

"We, on the other hand, understand very well that the relationship with Christ is a personal thing that transcends religious affiliation. It's not limited to "Christians" who follow your own narrow set of beliefs, according to you."

 

 Once again the Bible is very straight forward on the matter of salvation, which bit is confusing you?

 

You Said

"To pass judgment (as you do) on a stereotyped caricature of an entire group as "non-Christian" - without regard to individual circumstances - is a particularly insidious, non-Christian trait. Of course, you can repent of that attitude and become a true Christian, but it is very clear that someone with a good working relationship with Christ wouldn't make such a claim."

 

Actually I didn’t pass judgment, I said the truth. How can Mormons and Christians co exsist on different doctrines? Mormons might call their Church after Christ but they preach a works doctrine which is not the Doctrine of Jesus Christ salvation through grace. God said in the most recognised scripture in the world John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave is one and only Son, that whoever believes  in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

God doesn’t then go on to add a massive slew of other requirements for salvation so why does the Mormon church?

If you want to talk about repentance then your talking about the fruit of the Spirit. This happens as a result of being in Christ. You can easy tell if a person is a Christian because he or she will begin to change their lifestyle in order to outwardly portray that which has taken place inside as a result of the indwelling of the Spirit as a result of the grace that person has received.

 

You Said

"Indeed, your rationalizations back to Storm Rider about why Mormons "can't" be Christian belie an arrogance on your part that is entirely foreign to the humility that comes with a true relationship with Christ."

 

Here you guys go again self-anointing the Pharisees were like that.

His argument was empty, what did I have to work with. Give me something decent to chew on.

 

You Said

"We get people like you here all the time who come to pass judgment on us as a group. Good luck with that; if you retain that attitude, it will come back to haunt you when you stand before Christ Himself."

 

Whose judging now?

You’re the one who got your back up so did your mate, then he just skulked off like a coward.

I was making a pretty obvious observation as to why Christians and Mormons could never co-exist thus Christians will always be anti Mormon and on the flip side Mormons anti Christian its no secret. what shock your tree was when I said Joseph was a false Rabbi. Why would I lie, Jesus would call him that too.

 

Much love

[volgadon]

Hi my name is Mike, nice to meet you all.

 

The Jews would follow a Rabbi and say somthing along the lines of "I am of Rabbi Paul" or "I am of Rabbi Steve" and they woud literally stick by that Rabbi's side and learn from him his form of Judaism rituals and philosophy. Usually a Rabbi would pick a boy from his same tribe, and it was the boys hope as well as his familys that if he studied hard enough he would be picked.

 

In the same way Jesus the Son of God the Father was also considered a Rabbi and said to his disciples follow me, a bunch of fishermen and a tax collector all the dregs of society. these men become of Rabbi Christ "Christians" as later titled by the Romans

 

By contrast the Mormons do not follow the teaching of Christ nor do they accept his blood atonement poured out in grace. Instead they follow a man Joseph Smith and porfess to follow Christ, but not without the teachings of Joseph. So in essence they do not follow Christ but only profess it with their mouths. They are followers of Rabbi Joseph after the days of Christ and after the work of Gods holy Word was complete. Making Rabbi Joseph who works outside of scripture a false Rabbi. (for lack of a better description sorry)

 

So in everyway a Christian is anti Mormon whether they like the title or not, because of the Mormon doctrine, we can not stand shoulder to shoulder as brothers. nor even say we are brothers. Those who follow Christ are sons and daughters of God. Those who do not are not, so we are not related.

 

This is a sad truth. sorry if I have missed the point completely to this thread.

 

Baloney, on all counts. If your understanding of Judaism, the New Testament, and Mormonism is anything at all like what is contained in your post, then F- all the way. A massive, embarrassing fail.

[Not A Mormon]

Judgment

 

When a person (like you)

 

the person making such a claim (as you are) is not personally a Christian.

 

you claim exclusivity in that your interpretation (and yes, it is your interpretation

 

who follow your own narrow set of beliefs, according to you.

 

To pass judgment (as you do - is a particularly insidious, non-Christian trait.

 

Of course, you can repent of that attitude and become a true Christian, but it is very clear that someone with a good working relationship with Christ wouldn't make such a claim.

 

Indeed, your rationalizations back to Storm Rider about why Mormons "can't" be Christian belie an arrogance on your part that is entirely foreign to the humility that comes with a true relationship with Christ.

 

We get people like you here all the 

[Not A Mormon]

Baloney, on all counts. If your understanding of Judaism, the New Testament, and Mormonism is anything at all like what is contained in your post, then F- all the way. A massive, embarrassing fail.

Ok...so are you going to enlighten me as to where I made the mistake?

[volgadon]

I think that at this point in history "Mormonism" doesn't and shouldn't refer to a specific church.  The LDS Church is just one type of "Mormon".  There have been over 100 offshoots that follow the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, and are therefore part of Mormonism.

 

Have there really been that many?

[Not A Mormon]

You know for a bunch of "Christians" you guys get pretty wound up.

 

Ok...Im sorry I called Joseph a False Rabbi, (Forgiveness is the key here)

 

Now can we start again.

 

Lets debate theology because that what I really want to do. pleeeeeeeease

 

Peace

[Tacenda]

You know for a bunch of "Christians" you guys get pretty wound up.

 

Ok...Im sorry I called Joseph a False Rabbi, (Forgiveness is the key here)

 

Now can we start again.

 

Lets debate theology because that what I really want to do. pleeeeeeeease

 

Peace

Do you have a lot of time?

[volgadon]

Ok...so are you going to enlighten me as to where I made the mistake?

 

Mistakes, plural.

 

We can start with this.

 

The Jews would follow a Rabbi and say somthing along the lines of "I am of Rabbi Paul" or "I am of Rabbi Steve" and they woud literally stick by that Rabbi's side and learn from him his form of Judaism rituals and philosophy. Usually a Rabbi would pick a boy from his same tribe, and it was the boys hope as well as his familys that if he studied hard enough he would be picked.

 

They were all of the same tribe! There were also no rabbis in Jesus' day, and of the sages active, they all had multiuple sages, and it is far from obvious that becoming a sage was the dream of many families. Even when following their teachers, the disciples could follow their own interpretation, as well as innovate.

[volgadon]

Do you have a lot of time?

 

That made me smile.

[Tacenda]

Mistakes, plural.

 

We can start with this.

 

 

 

 

They were all of the same tribe! There were also no rabbis in Jesus' day, and of the sages active, they all had multiuple sages, and it is far from obvious that becoming a sage was the dream of many families. Even when following their teachers, the disciples could follow their own interpretation, as well as innovate.

Oh, poor "not a Mormon", he posted on the wrong day......

[Not A Mormon]

Oh, poor "not a Mormon", he posted on the wrong day......

Really

 

Is this a school locker room where all the Jocks high five each other?

 

am I supposed to be intimidated by you lot right now?

 

Its funny how I was being accused of not acting like a Christian. 

[Thinking]

Not really. There's a difference between disavowing a connection to a specific organization and disavowing a connection to Christ.

 

Are you saying that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is the only organization that should be allowed to use the term Mormon when referring to itself?

[jwhitlock]

I think that at this point in history "Mormonism" doesn't and shouldn't refer to a specific church.  The LDS Church is just one type of "Mormon".  There have been over 100 offshoots that follow the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, and are therefore part of Mormonism.

 

Just as all who follow Christ are called Christian, all who follow Mohammed/Islam are called Muslim, etc.  There are many kinds of followers of Judaism and we still consider them Jewish.

 

It's silly to think that after 200 years that there can only be one church that can legitimately claim the term Mormon, even if there can only be one true church.

 

I think the question we need to ask ourselves is what the term "Mormonism" actually refers to. Christian refers to a follower of Christ. Islam is the religion dealing with Muhammad. What is the definition of "Mormonism"?

[Tacenda]

Really

 

Is this a school locker room where all the Jocks high five each other?

 

am I supposed to be intimidated by you lot right now?

 

Its funny how I was being accused of not acting like a Christian. 

No, I'm female, don't know what the locker room mentality feels like.  What I'm saying is you are up against scholars and men and women on this board that truly have been around the block.  They know the bible from which you speak!  Just hope you have a lot of time. 

[jwhitlock]

 

Much love

 

I don't really sense that from you.

 

In reality, you're pushing your own interpretation of scripture as authoritative (and it's a narrow interpretation at that) in order to bolster your claim of exclusivity.

 

Since all you can really come up with is "the Bible is clear on ..." without providing specifics, what's really clear is that you're passing judgment on a group (not individuals) of people about their relationship with Christ. You do that without knowing them. You do that rationalizing that since their understanding of Christ is not the same as yours (which, again, is rather narrow) then they obviously can't be Christians.

 

Never mind that there's not any particular unity within the body of those who call themselves Christians about all points of Christian doctrine - including the nature of Christ. For you, it's enough to parrot cheap talking points made by those who would arrogantly claim that Mormons have no real knowledge of or relationships with Christ.

 

And all simply because they are Mormons, without regard to knowing the individuals involved.

 

If you are unable to see the arrogance and hate in that kind of stance, and unable to understand how it distances you personally from Christ, then there's no real purpose in you coming here and judging us. Your comments speak more about you personally than they do about what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is really all about and what it's members really believe in.

 

So are you actually going to come clean about what your purpose is in posting on this board? It's obviously not to understand us; are you  just here to mock and pass judgment in the tradition of Herod and the Sanhedrin?