Anti - Anti - Mormon (A Labeling Difficulty)

[Calm]

 

Much love

Obviously...

[Calm]

See, and this is where I have disagreement.  I understand that Mormonism USED TO be referring to a specific organization, like Episcopalian.

What I am contending is that 200 years after its founding with near 100 offshoot branches, it no longer refers to the organization but has progressed to a branch of religion, a new world religion (or the restoration of the original if you prefer).

.

I think before drawing this conclusion, one should see how most people use the term. If they understand it as an umbrella term, I would have no problem with this usage. If most assume it is only referring to the lds faith...problem.

[Calm]

Mike, is this you? http://followtherabbi.com/guide/detail/rabbi-and-talmidim

And here I thought it was from the wiki..for some reason the first sentence is the same. Good catch.

Not A Mormon,

It would be wise to read the guidelines you agreed to when registering to post on the site, epecially the part about plagiarism...or at least copying someone else's work without attribution.

Btw, Volga, how accurate is the follow the rabbi site, it appears to be referenced around the internet.

Edited January 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[Thinking]

This is a rather frequently expressed but quite erroneous assumption. The Church does <not> in fact discourage people from referring to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Mormons. Nor does it object to the use of Mormon as a descriptor as in Mormon Tabernacle Choir or Mormon Pioneers or Mormon Trail. What the Church does object to is calling it the "Mormon Church." This is because of the specific commandment of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon to His followers that they call His Church after His name.

From this it should be clear there is nothing at all inconsistent with the position of the Church on this matter, your mischaracterization of that position notwithstanding.

You claim to be basing your remark on the Church's own style guide. If it's true you have seen the style guide, I submit that you have rather badly misread it or are misremembering it.

 

Style Guide — The Name of the Church

The official name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This full name was given by revelation from God to Joseph Smith in 1838.

While the term "Mormon Church" has long been publicly applied to the Church as a nickname, it is not an authorized title, and the Church discourages its use.

When writing about the Church, please follow these guidelines:

• In the first reference, the full name of the Church is preferred: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
• Please avoid the use of "Mormon Church," "LDS Church" or the "Church of the Latter-day Saints."
• When a shortened reference is needed, the terms "the Church" or "the Church of Jesus Christ" are encouraged.
• When referring to Church members, the term "Latter-day Saints" is preferred, though "Mormons" is acceptable.
• "Mormon" is correctly used in proper names such as the Book of Mormon, Mormon Tabernacle Choir or Mormon Trail, or when used as an adjective in such expressions as "Mormon pioneers."
• The term "Mormonism" is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
• When referring to people or organizations that practice polygamy, the terms "Mormons," "Mormon fundamentalist," "Mormon dissidents," etc. are incorrect. The Associated Press Stylebook notes: "The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other [Latter Day Saints] churches that resulted from the split after [Joseph] Smith's death."

 

It's really quite silly that the Church even requests that those who disagree with the doctrine of the Church not be labeled Mormon dissidents. What else should they be called?

 

According to the style guide don't say that a Mormon (acceptable but not preferred term) is a member of the Mormon Church or that a Latter-day Saint (preferred term) is a member of the LDS Church or the Church of the Latter-day Saints (even though this was the official name of the Church for a few years).

[volgadon]

And here I thought it was from the wiki..for some reason the first sentence is the same. Good catch.

Not A Mormon,

It would be wise to read the guidelines you agreed to when registering to post on the site, epecially the part about plagiarism...or at least copying someone else's work without attribution.

Btw, Volga, how accurate is the follow the rabbi site, it appears to be referenced around the internet.

 

I've only read that article, but it is surprisingly more accurate than the usual fare at those kinds of sites. It still suffers from the shortcomings of older scholarship, such as Danby's (though I would still read him).

[Calm]

Thanks.

[jwhitlock]

 

It's really quite silly that the Church even requests that those who disagree with the doctrine of the Church not be labeled Mormon dissidents. What else should they be called?

 

 

"Silly" is such a well-poisoning word, isn't it.

 

The church's position on this is not "silly" as you so dismissively put it. A Mormon dissident could be someone who is still a member of the church. We're talking about people and groups that are NOT associated with or connected to the church. Anyone who writes for a living understands the connotations of words and what they communicate generally, so to object to the use of "Mormon dissident" in referring to outside groups is entirely appropriate.

[Vance]

By contrast the Mormons do not follow the teaching of Christ nor do they accept his blood atonement poured out in grace. Instead they follow a man Joseph Smith and porfess to follow Christ, but not without the teachings of Joseph. So in essence they do not follow Christ but only profess it with their mouths. They are followers of Rabbi Joseph after the days of Christ and after the work of Gods holy Word was complete. Making Rabbi Joseph who works outside of scripture a false Rabbi. (for lack of a better description sorry)

 

So in everyway a Christian is anti Mormon whether they like the title or not, because of the Mormon doctrine, we can not stand shoulder to shoulder as brothers. nor even say we are brothers. Those who follow Christ are sons and daughters of God. Those who do not are not, so we are not related.

How appropriate that you have chosen a braying A$$ as your avatar.

Now, if you want to debate theology, pick a topic and start a thread. But prepare yourself to be surprised. You don't know the Bible as well as you think you do.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Vance

[Scott Lloyd]

 

Style Guide — The Name of the Church

The official name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This full name was given by revelation from God to Joseph Smith in 1838.

While the term "Mormon Church" has long been publicly applied to the Church as a nickname, it is not an authorized title, and the Church discourages its use.

When writing about the Church, please follow these guidelines:

• In the first reference, the full name of the Church is preferred: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
• Please avoid the use of "Mormon Church," "LDS Church" or the "Church of the Latter-day Saints."
• When a shortened reference is needed, the terms "the Church" or "the Church of Jesus Christ" are encouraged.
• When referring to Church members, the term "Latter-day Saints" is preferred, though "Mormons" is acceptable.
• "Mormon" is correctly used in proper names such as the Book of Mormon, Mormon Tabernacle Choir or Mormon Trail, or when used as an adjective in such expressions as "Mormon pioneers."
• The term "Mormonism" is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
• When referring to people or organizations that practice polygamy, the terms "Mormons," "Mormon fundamentalist," "Mormon dissidents," etc. are incorrect. The Associated Press Stylebook notes: "The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other [Latter Day Saints] churches that resulted from the split after [Joseph] Smith's death."

 

I'm well aware of what the Style Guide says. Your quoting of it only confirms what I said to you.

 

You remarked previously:

 

Isn't it interesting that in its Style Guide the Church discourages the use of the term Mormon when referring to the Church.

"Don't call us Mormons, but don't call anybody else Mormons either."

 

In this, you were quite wrong. The Church does not say "Don't call us Mormons."

 

As you might have gathered, this is a pet peeve of mine, because I have had to correct people (perhaps you yourself were among them) regarding it on a number of occasions in the past, yet this misconception keeps cropping up.

 

It's really quite silly that the Church even requests that those who disagree with the doctrine of the Church not be labeled Mormon dissidents. What else should they be called?

 

 

Here, you misquote the style guide. From your own post, it is clear that this request from the Church pertains not merely to "those who disagree with the doctrine of the Church" but to "people or organizations that practice polygamy." By definition, such people or organizations are either apostate and schismatic, or they never did belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the first place. Calling them "Mormon" is confusing and misleading in the extreme. A responsible journalist would avoid doing that. And I say that as a working journalist.

 

According to the style guide don't say that a Mormon (acceptable but not preferred term) is a member of the Mormon Church or that a Latter-day Saint (preferred term) is a member of the LDS Church or the Church of the Latter-day Saints (even though this was the official name of the Church for a few years).

 

 

It doesn't matter that "Church of the Latter-day Saints" was the official name for a few years. That hasn't been the case for well over a century and a half. And even during those few years, the evidence is that the Latter-day Saints never intended to omit the name of Christ from their worship, and they readily made and accepted the course correction as being in line with the scriptural mandate given by Christ Himself in the Book of Mormon.

 

I have posted previously on this subject as follows:

 

Regarding establishment of the name of the Church in this dispensation, this article by Richard Lloyd Anderson provides some good perspective. It is from the January 1979 Ensign magazine. It points out that the name from the beginning had the name of Christ in it, and that even during the brief period when it was called "the Church of the Latter-day Saints," the members did not believe they were de-emphasizing the name of Christ.

As for the question posed earlier in the thread to the effect of "why did it take the Lord so long to reveal the name of the Church?" I would respond that the revelation was already there as contained in 3 Nephi 27:8, though it took the early Church members in this dispensation a while to understand and implement it properly.

Quote

What changes have been made in the name of the Church? Its full designation does not appear in the revelations until 1838. (D&C 115:4)

Richard Lloyd Anderson, professor of religion and history, Brigham Young University A concise answer to this question is found by comparing the name of the Church on the title pages of the first three printings of the revelations: “The Church of Christ” (Book of Commandments, 1833), “The Church of the Latter Day Saints” (Doctrine and Covenants, 1835), and “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” (Doctrine and Covenants, 1844).

The Savior told the Nephites that his church should be called in his name. (See 3 Ne. 27:8.) As a result, the restored Church’s official title from 1830 to 1834 was “The Church of Christ.” That title is found in the revelation on the organization and government of the Church (D&C 20:1) and in early minute books. During this period, however, members of the Church regularly called themselves “saints”; the word saint is used approximately three dozen times in the D&C before 1834.

On 3 May 1834, official action modified the name of the Church. In a priesthood conference presided over by Joseph Smith, a motion passed “by unanimous voice” that the Church be known as “The Church of the Latter Day Saints.” (See The Evening and the Morning Star, May 1834, 2:160.) This alteration was not seen as a de-emphasis of Christ; on the contrary, it was done in hopes that the name of the Church would more clearly reflect the fact that Christ was at its head.

In the same issue of the Kirtland newspaper in which the announcement appeared, an editorial explained that the change stemmed from a misleading nickname: the “Mormonite” church. The new name also had these advantages: (1) Since American Christians, including Congregationalists and reformers, frequently designated themselves as “The Church of Christ,” that title did not distinguish the restored gospel from a host of Protestant sects. (2) Since Paul and Peter used the Greek word saint (“a holy person”) to refer to believers in Christ, the term Latter-day Saints implied that Church members were modern followers of Christ. Thus it also asserted the claim of restoration.

Just as the term saint flourished when the official name was “The Church of Christ,” the name of Christ regularly supplemented the official name of “The Church of the Latter Day Saints.” For example, in 1835, the church was referred to as “the church of Christ” and the Twelve apostles were commissioned as “special witnesses of the name of Christ.” (D&C 107:59, 23) The Saints certainly did not feel that the Church was leaving out the name of Christ.

Sometimes during this period the first and second titles would be combined—“the church of Christ of Latter Day saints”—as they were in priesthood minutes (Messenger and Advocate, Feb. 1836, 2:266) and in the publication of the first high council minutes (see headnote, D&C 5, 1835 edition).

A vivid illustration of the way members then understood the official name of the Church is found in a letter from John Smith, the Prophet’s uncle, to his son Elias before the latter was converted. Writing 19 Oct. 1834, Uncle John answers the question of why the name could be changed:

“The Church of Christ is the Church of Saints and always was. This is the reason why the apostle directed letters sometimes to the Church of God, others to the Church, and again to the Brethren, sometimes to the Saints, always meaning the Church of Christ.” (Archives, University of Utah)

Thus, the final version of the Church’s name was no radical shift from the previous practice of using both “Christ” and “Saints” in designating the restored Church and its members. Revealed on 26 April 1838 (D&C 115:4), the full title, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” is striking by comparison to the names of the scores of churches that obscure their Christianity under the label of their founders or of some characteristic belief or aspect of church organization. It is a highly effective name, for while it is distinctive, it indicates that Jesus is at its head. It is also descriptive of divine restoration. And it is more than a name—it is a public commitment to a holy life through the Savior’s power.

 

Edited January 6, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Typical

Typical what? Thanks for the charity.

[Scott Lloyd]

Typical what? Thanks for the charity.

What is typical is the way some of these people come on here with guns blazing and, when they encounter some push-back, give responses such as "Typical."

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What is typical is the way some of these people come on here with guns blazing and, when they encounter some push-back, give responses such as "Typical."

Well, I get that, what I think is interesting is the blanket statement he made. Like all mormons respond in (his mind) a typical dismissive attitude. What does that say about him?

[bluebell]

Well, I get that, what I think is interesting is the blanket statement he made. Like all mormons respond in (his mind) a typical dismissive attitude. What does that say about him?

 

I think it says he got in way over his head, had no way to counter the responses he got, started to feel defensive, and wanted to justify his retreat.  

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think it says he got in way over his head, had no way to counter the responses he got, started to feel defensive, and wanted to justify his retreat.  

Sounds good to me.