Believing And Knowing

[Terran]

Can anyone point me to general authority quotes, an article, paper, book or anything that discusses the difference between believing the gospel and knowing it is true.  I'm particularly interested in information on at what point it's accurate to say "I know."  Any guidance in this area will be appreciated.

[bluebell]

Alma 32 is a good place to start on the difference between knowledge and faith.

[Rob Osborn]

This is a difficult measure. As far as I can tell this "knowledge" of the church being true is never mentioned in that way in all of scripture. What are we basing belief by when we say something is true? I have felt for a long time that we habitually use the phrase "I know this church to be true" not even truly realizing what it is we are thus claiming. For instance- if God and His son Jesus Christ are really true and they have given the seal of approaval for our church then to truly "know" this requires an actual witness to know without doubt that this is true. Usually that requires an actual vision or actually seeing and speaking with God. This brings to mind the brother of Jared from the Book of Mormon. Because of his incredible faith he went from just believing in God to Knowing God by actually seeing his body and speaking directly with him.

 

I have seen all too often the person, including myself, say "Iknow this church is true" and then later on (several years in my case) I came to question that "belief" and at what point no longer believed the church to be true. So, in reality, unless we receive a sure witness that the church actually is true, it can only be a belief that this is the true church. I have as of lately testified to know only those things I know to be true and also testify belief in those things in which I believe. A recent testimony of mine went something like this-

" I testify that Satan is real and does seek to destroy us. I know that this church is doing the Lords work. I testify my belief that this church is true. In the name of Jesus Christ Amen."

[Ahab]

Can anyone point me to general authority quotes, an article, paper, book or anything that discusses the difference between believing the gospel and knowing it is true.  I'm particularly interested in information on at what point it's accurate to say "I know."  Any guidance in this area will be appreciated.

I think it's better to teach people how to catch fish than to catch all the fish they want for them.  Go to lds.org and use the search feature, using the key words "belief" and "knowledge".  You'll catch more fish there than you can handle.

[Tiki]

Why do you think you need a "personal" visitation "to know" when you have the visitation of or the Gift of the Holy Ghost?

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not brevealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Was the Savior being deceptive toward Peter by misspeaking? Obviously not. The Savior didn't say that He revealed who he was to Peter, but that it was His Father through the "third" member of the Godhead.

[ERayR]

Can anyone point me to general authority quotes, an article, paper, book or anything that discusses the difference between believing the gospel and knowing it is true.  I'm particularly interested in information on at what point it's accurate to say "I know."  Any guidance in this area will be appreciated.

 

I would say the answer to that is when you have received personal revelation that it is true and know it. That does not mean a visitation like Joseph Smith but rather a spiritual witness.

Edited November 22, 2013 by ERayR

[ERayR]

This is a difficult measure. As far as I can tell this "knowledge" of the church being true is never mentioned in that way in all of scripture. What are we basing belief by when we say something is true? I have felt for a long time that we habitually use the phrase "I know this church to be true" not even truly realizing what it is we are thus claiming. For instance- if God and His son Jesus Christ are really true and they have given the seal of approaval for our church then to truly "know" this requires an actual witness to know without doubt that this is true. Usually that requires an actual vision or actually seeing and speaking with God. This brings to mind the brother of Jared from the Book of Mormon. Because of his incredible faith he went from just believing in God to Knowing God by actually seeing his body and speaking directly with him.

 

I have seen all too often the person, including myself, say "Iknow this church is true" and then later on (several years in my case) I came to question that "belief" and at what point no longer believed the church to be true. So, in reality, unless we receive a sure witness that the church actually is true, it can only be a belief that this is the true church. I have as of lately testified to know only those things I know to be true and also testify belief in those things in which I believe. A recent testimony of mine went something like this-

" I testify that Satan is real and does seek to destroy us. I know that this church is doing the Lords work. I testify my belief that this church is true. In the name of Jesus Christ Amen."

 

Note the OP was about the gospel not the church and while the Church is the vehicle by which the gospel is going forth they are not one and the same.

[Tiki]

Note the OP was about the gospel not the church and while the Church is the vehicle by which the gospel is going forth they are not one and the same.

Well, since the gospel teaches one must be baptized and baptism is admission or membership to His church, It would be fair to say that if one knows the Church to be true, then one also knows the gospel to be true.

[theanthrofox]

Is your computer more true when you are looking it right now? Or was it more true when you were on holiday and you couldn't perceive it?

 

Do you believe your computer to be true right now? do you know it to be true? if you were staying at a friends house for a week, do you know your computer is still where you left it?? or do you believe it and think it's still there? But then how do you know I haven't snuck into your house and stolen it? and all that time you were just believing it to be there, when really you didn't know because you could not perceive it...

[why me]

I would say the answer to that is when you have received personal revelation that it is true and know it. That does not mean a visitation like Joseph Smith but rather a spiritual witness.

I think that it would be better to say spiritual experience than spiritual witness. I have seen it more and more how exmembers who have claimed spiritual witnesses now claim that it was all bunk. I have also seen more and more exmembers downplay their spiritual witnesses with such rationalizations that members of other faiths receive such witnesses too. I find quite amazing just how members can throw away their spiritual witnesses.

 

When I think of the 11 witnesses to the book of mormon I see individuals who had  a spiritual experience and none of them them regardless of whether or not were in or out of the church could not deny that experience. They knew that they had a spiritual experience.

[why me]

Well, since the gospel teaches one must be baptized and baptism is admission or membership to His church, It would be fair to say that if one knows the Church to be true, then one also knows the gospel to be true.

You would think so. But this is not so clear cut. Many members leave the church even though they stand during fast and testimony meeting telling everyone that they know that the church is true. And yet, they leave the church because of a historical fact. How to explain it? Hard to explain. When I see a member bearing a their testimony I think that maybe it is built in a house of cards. That the first wind will blow it all away.

 

I think that people need to internalize their spiritual experiences or spiritual witnesses and not rationalize them all away.

Edited November 24, 2013 by why me

[mfbukowski]

Is your computer more true when you are looking it right now? Or was it more true when you were on holiday and you couldn't perceive it?

 

Do you believe your computer to be true right now? do you know it to be true? if you were staying at a friends house for a week, do you know your computer is still where you left it?? or do you believe it and think it's still there? But then how do you know I haven't snuck into your house and stolen it? and all that time you were just believing it to be there, when really you didn't know because you could not perceive it...

Welcome to the board.

 

You sound like you are as weird as I am. 

Edited November 25, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Terran]

Alma 32 does have some important things to say on this topic.  It seems to say that we "know" some principles to be true because the results are "discernible" but our knowledge may not be perfect. "neither must ye lay aside your faith..." but "nourish the tree" until you reach the point of partaking of the fruit.

[Coreyb]

From the Lectures on Faith...

Question 144: What testimony have men, in the first instance, that there is a God?

Human testimony, and human testimony only. (2:56)

Question 145: What excited the ancient saints to seek diligently after a knowledge of the glory of God, his perfections and attributes?

The credence they gave to the testimony of their fathers. (2:56)

Question 146: How do men obtain a knowledge of the glory of God, his perfections and attributes?

By devoting themselves to his service, through prayer and supplication incessantly, strengthening their faith in him, until like Enoch, the brother of Jared, and Moses, they obtain a manifestation of God to themselves. (2:55)

Question 147: Is the knowledge of the existence of God a matter of mere tradition, founded upon human testimony alone, until a person receives a manifestation of God to themselves?

It is.

Question 148: How do you prove it?

From the whole of the first lecture of the second section.

[rodheadlee]

Well, since the gospel teaches one must be baptized and baptism is admission or membership to His church, It would be fair to say that if one knows the Church to be true, then one also knows the gospel to be true.

I think knowing the gospel is true can come way before you know the LDS Church is true. I had a witness of the truth of the gospel 2 years before I had a witness the LDS Church is truly the Church of Jesus Christ. It can be 20 years or a lifetime between the 2.

[Terran]

From the Lectures on Faith...

Question 144: What testimony have men, in the first instance, that there is a God?

Human testimony, and human testimony only. (2:56)

Question 145: What excited the ancient saints to seek diligently after a knowledge of the glory of God, his perfections and attributes?

The credence they gave to the testimony of their fathers. (2:56)

Question 146: How do men obtain a knowledge of the glory of God, his perfections and attributes?

By devoting themselves to his service, through prayer and supplication incessantly, strengthening their faith in him, until like Enoch, the brother of Jared, and Moses, they obtain a manifestation of God to themselves. (2:55)

Question 147: Is the knowledge of the existence of God a matter of mere tradition, founded upon human testimony alone, until a person receives a manifestation of God to themselves?

It is.

Question 148: How do you prove it?

From the whole of the first lecture of the second section.

 

Thank you.  This is the most direct teaching I have seen, so far, on this topic.

[Ahab]

Thank you. This is the most direct teaching I have seen, so far, on this topic.

Joseph always did have a good way to say what he meant.

Happy 5 days before Smithmas everybody!

[janderich]

Strictly speaking I would say it is fairly straight forward.

 

1. Belief leads a person to accept and act on the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

2. Faith grows out of belief and leads a person to receive spiritual manifestations (ie. miracles, angles, a voice from heaven, etc.)

3. Knowledge is the fruit of faith which leads a person to an audience with the Savior himself.

 

And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil: and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord, and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting. - Ether 3:19 

[Coreyb]

Joseph always did have a good way to say what he meant.

Happy 5 days before Smithmas everybody!

I am betting Sidney Rigdon wrote this. It does however fit nicely into Joseph's teachings about man having the right to see God.

[Coreyb]

Why do you think you need a "personal" visitation "to know" when you have the visitation of or the Gift of the Holy Ghost?

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not brevealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Was the Savior being deceptive toward Peter by misspeaking? Obviously not. The Savior didn't say that He revealed who he was to Peter, but that it was His Father through the "third" member of the Godhead.

I believe this can be understood by realizing that any real knowledge that we have is knowledge of truth. All truth is independent within a certain sphere that God has placed it. Thus, all truth is in a hierarchy of truths. When you have entered a new sphere you are likely to learn new truths that may contradict the knowledge you learned in a lower sphere. Because they are independent, in their respective spheres, they can coexist. If truth is independent and hierarchical, then the knowledge of it and the manifestations revealing said knowledge is hierarchical as well. You can progress from hope to belief to knowledge to more sure knowledge as you progress through spheres of truth. Sure you can say that a manifestation of the Holy Ghost to your heart gives you sufficient knowledge of truth now, perhaps even for the duration of your mortal life, but would you say that you will never have need to speak face to face with God for all eternity because your previous manifestation is all the knowledge you (will ever) need? Such an attitude would damn you to the sphere of truth that such manifestations could reveal! IMO Edited December 19, 2014 by Coreyb

[Ahab]

I believe this can be understood by realizing that any real knowledge that we have is knowledge of truth. All truth is independent without a certain sphere that God has placed it. Thus, all truth is in a hierarchy of truths. When you have entered a new sphere you are likely to learn new truths that may contradict the knowledge you learned in a lower sphere. Because they are independent, in their respective spheres, they can coexist. If truth is independent and hierarchical, then the knowledge of it and the manifestations revealing said knowledge is hierarchical as well. You can progress from hope to belief to knowledge to more sure knowledge as you progress through spheres of truth. Sure you can say that a manifestation of the Holy Ghost to your heart gives you sufficient knowledge of truth now, perhaps even for the duration of your mortal life, but would you say that you will never have need to speak face to face with God for all eternity because your previous manifestation is all the knowledge you (will ever) need? Such an attitude would damn you to the sphere of truth that such manifestations could reveal! IMO

God would tell you the same thing the Holy Ghost told you, though, unless he elaborated to tell you even more, and the Holy Ghost would also confirm and tell you the same thing that God told you whatever he told you.

[Coreyb]

God would tell you the same thing the Holy Ghost told you, though, unless he elaborated to tell you even more, and the Holy Ghost would also confirm and tell you the same thing that God told you whatever he told you.

With all due respect Ahab, you have know idea what God might tell you and neither do I.

[Scott Lloyd]

Alma 32 is a good place to start on the difference between knowledge and faith.

I was going to refer to that as well. It describes a continuum that begins with a desire to believe and progresses from there to a perfect knowledge.

 

I don't have any General Authority quotes at hand, but I would suggest that an individual must determine for herself the point at which strong faith and belief becomes knowledge.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Scott Lloyd