Survey To Evaluate False Doctrine Among Membership

[strappinglad]

Yes cal, Central America.

[Rob Osborn]

Where does Church doctrine declare this  ------>  "Evolution of man from a lower order of animals is false even though this false teaching is taught at BYU."

Where does church doctrine teach what you posted for #2?

[Rob Osborn]

Where does Church doctrine declare this  ------>  "Evolution of man from a lower order of animals is false even though this false teaching is taught at BYU."

Reword the question to include all aspects and not show bias.

#2 What is LDS doctrine on evolution?

A. Evolution is true or is supported by scripture/doctrine

B. Evolution is false and is supported by scripture/doctrine

C. The church takes no official stance regarding evolution

D. The church has official doctrine both for and against evolution

Leave BYU out of it as that angle shows obvious bias.

[DBMormon]

Where does church doctrine teach what you posted for #2?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Evolution/Official_stance

1909 first presidency letter and 1925 First presidency letter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_views_on_evolution

http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/lds/lds-history-evolution.php

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635188399/No-definitive-LDS-stance-on-evolution-study-finds.html?pg=all

https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V35N04_33.pdf

 

The Last article by Michael Ash is an awesome read and well wroth anyone's time.  With all of this it can be safely said

 

"At the present time, although there have been no further formal announcements, most available evidence indicates that the LDS Church fully intends to pursue the direction given in the 1931 First Presidency statement, namely to leave questions regarding evolution (in a broad sense encompassing the age of the earth, the proliferation of species and the causes of speciation and adaptations) to the world of scientific research, and not become embroiled in scientific or technical controversies."

[rick7475]

This is a survey I created on my lunch break that while it would likely never be used could be to evaluate how aware members are of actual Doctrine and Church policy and History.  I would love input as to other questions that could be asked.  The questions are intended not to be critical and to be respectful of faith while evaluating awareness of truth among general membership.

 

1.) Joseph Smith likely translated the Book of Mormon from the metal plates

a - with the Nephite Interpreters or spectacles found with the plates

b - with a Seer Stone found before receiving the plates

c - likely a combination of these 2 methods

2.) What is LDS Doctrine on Evolution?

a - Evolution is false and it is not allowed to be taught at BYU

b - Evolution is true and is stated so as Doctrine and is taught as truth at BYU

c - The church has no official stance on Evolution and teaches the theory at BYU

3.) What is LDS Doctrine on the flood

a - It was a global flood that covered the whole earth

b - It was a local flood that only affected a local area where Noah lived

c - While taught as it is written, the Church has no official stance on how widespread was the flood

4.) What is the offiicial stance on How was Eve created?

a - Eve was made from one of Adam's Ribs

b - Eve was teleported to Earth from another planet's population

c - While we speak of her being made from a rib we acknowledge that this was symbolic  and figurative

5.) Why were Blacks not permitted the Priesthood prior to 1978

a - They had the Mark of Cain

b - There is no known Doctrine and any explanantion for why is opinion and not official or binding.

c - Brigham Young implemented the policy due to personally held Racist views.

6.) How old is the Earth in LDS Doctrine

a - Each dispensation represents 1,000 years so the Earth is between 6,000 and 7,000

b - The Earth is Millions and perhaps Billions of years old

c - While no official policy or Doctrine most leaders acknowledge in their personal views the Earth is in the millions or billions of years in age

7.) In LDS Doctrine where did the Book of Mormon take place

a - The Church takes no position on where Book of Mormon events took place

b - over all of the North and South America with Central America as the Narrow Neck of land

c - In the Great Lakes region

d - In Mesoamerica around Gutamala

8.) Tithing is defined in the Church as 10% of your income paid annually - the Church defines this as

a - 10% of your gross income

b - 10% of your net income

c - 10% of your surplus income

d - They restate the essence of 10% of income paid annually and add "No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly." hence leaving the decision between the member and the Lord.

9.) Word of Wisdom prohibits Tea, Coffee, and Alcohol being consumed along with Tobacco being used (smoked, dip, eaten all banned).  Which of these things are also prohibited

a - Rum cake made with real Rum

b - Beer battered onion rings

c - Soda Pop

d - None of the above are officially banned and each member should prayerfully consider if these and any others substance they take  violates the spirit of the law.  But in the end it is between the individual and the Lord

10.) In the Church we teach that we have a unpaid lay clergy.  What does this mean?

a - no one in the Church is paid as an employee

b - no ecclesasical leaders are paid but other Church employees such as office, maintence, IT, and janitorial people  are

c - While local leaders are unpaid, general leaders like Prophet, Apostle, Seventy are paid an modest income and other leaders such as Mission presidents get re-imbursements for come of their living expenses.

11 - Book of Abraham was translated with the involvement of some Egyptian papyri.  This papyri is  ________?

a -  Not the Book of Abraham at all and is instead a Standard Egyptian funeral document unconnected to Joseph's translation to the Book of Abraham

b - Is the original writings of Abraham by his own hand

c - makes up a very complex issue where we know it is in some way connected to the Book of Abraham, but at least parts of it are standard Egyptian funeral texts that seem unrelated.  We also don't have all the original papyri as some of it burned up in the Chicago Fire.  So While critics claim this translation doesn't fit and is a hoax, we claim all the facts are not present and may never be so we act in faith.

d - is a document that both Mormon and Egyptian non-mormon scholars alike agree is the writings of Abraham

12.) Polygamy was __________?

a - started by Joseph Smith as he married 2-3 women besides Emma

b - started by Brigham Young after Joseph's death wherein he married over 30 women

c - started by Joseph Smith wherein he married or was sealed to approximately 33 women while all parties were alive and included some of these women already being married at the time to other men.

13.)  Which statement most closely defines LDS Doctrine concerning obedience to Church leaders ?

a - We should follow the prophet and the other General Authorities in all that they ask us to do.  They speak the Mind and will of the Lord and when they speak the thinking has been done.  When speaking to the Church they do not error.

b - Same as (A) except we acknowledge they error at times but add Even if they are wrong we shall be blessed for following them and should do so anyways.

c - We understand that Leaders while called are not infallible and we should be in tune with the Holy Ghost to know when they are acting as prophet and when they are simply sharing opinion.  When we feel a contradiction between what they say and what we think and our belief does not violate Doctrine, we are to see an answer from the Lord on if the teaching is something we should follow.

14 .) Books written by General Authorities that are outside the LDS Canon (ex: Bruce R MCConkie's "Mormon Doctrine") are considered

a - Church puts it's official stamp of approval on them as Doctrinally sound and seen as inspired and trustworthy

b - Are not approved as Doctrinally correct and only represent the individual who wrote it and it's contents are that writer's sole responsibility.

1.) Joseph Smith likely translated the Book of Mormon from the metal plates

c - likely a combination of these 2 methods

 

2.) What is LDS Doctrine on Evolution?

c - The church has no official stance on Evolution and teaches the theory at BYU

 

3.) What is LDS Doctrine on the flood

c - While taught as it is written, the Church has no official stance on how widespread was the flood

 

4.) What is the offiicial stance on How was Eve created?

c - While we speak of her being made from a rib we acknowledge that this was symbolic  and figurative

 

5.) Why were Blacks not permitted the Priesthood prior to 1978

b - There is no known Doctrine and any explanantion for why is opinion and not official or binding.

 

 

6.) How old is the Earth in LDS Doctrine

b - The Earth is Millions and perhaps Billions of years old

 

 

7.) In Lds Doctrine where did the Book of Mormon take place

d - In Mesoamerica around Gutamala

 

8.) Tithing is defined in the Church as 10% of your income paid annually - the Church defines this as

d - They restate the essence of 10% of income paid annually and add "No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly." hence leaving the decision between the member and the Lord.

 

9.) Word of Wisdom prohibits Tea, Coffee, and Alcohol being consumed along with Tobacco being used (smoked, dip, eaten all banned).  Which of these things are also prohibited

d - None of the above are officially banned and each member should prayerfully consider if these and any others substance they take  violates the spirit of the law.  But in the end it is between the individual and the Lord

 

10.) In the Church we teach that we have a lay clergy.  What does this mean

c - While local leaders are unpaid, general leaders like Prophet, Apostle, Seventy are paid an modest income and other leaders such as Mission presidents get re-imbursements for come of their living expenses.

 

11 - Book of Abraham was translated with the involvement of some Egyptian papyri.  This papyri is  ________?

c - makes up a very complex issue where we know it is in some way connected to the Book of Abraham, but at least parts of it are standard Egyptian funeral texts that seem unrelated.  We also don't have all the original papyri as some of it burned up in the Chicago Fire.  So While critics claim this translation doesn't fit and is a hoax, we claim all the facts are not present and may never be so we act in faith.

 

12.) Polygamy was __________?

c - started by Joseph Smith wehre in he married or sealed to approximately 33 women while all parties were alive and included some of the se women already being married at the time to other men.

 

13.)  Which statement mopst closely defines LDS Doctrine concerning obedience to Church leaders ?

b - Same as (A) except we acknowledge they error at times but add Even if they are wrong we shall be blessed for following them and should do so anyways.

 

14 .) Books written by General Authorities that are outside the LDS Canon (ex: Bruce R MCConkie's "Mormon Doctrine") are considered

b - Are not approved as Doctrinally correct and only represent the individual who wrote it and it's contents are that writer's sole responsibility.

[Calm]

Reword the question to include all aspects and not show bias.

#2 What is LDS doctrine on evolution?

A. Evolution is true or is supported by scripture/doctrine

B. Evolution is false and is supported by scripture/doctrine

C. The church takes no official stance regarding evolution

D. The church has official doctrine both for and against evolution

Leave BYU out of it as that angle shows obvious bias.

Or put BYU into another question.

[juliann]

JuliAnn - I would love for you to develop a question and send to me that would capture what your thinking

It's Juliann

 

Hmmm, I'm not sure how to ask a question about heavenly polygamy when there is really nothing official on it...which is why people ignore the Manifesto and go back to long dead prophets to support it.

[Rob Osborn]

Or put BYU into another question.

yes

[Rob Osborn]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Evolution/Official_stance

1909 first presidency letter and 1925 First presidency letter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_views_on_evolution

http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/lds/lds-history-evolution.php

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635188399/No-definitive-LDS-stance-on-evolution-study-finds.html?pg=all

https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V35N04_33.pdf

 

The Last article by Michael Ash is an awesome read and well wroth anyone's time.  With all of this it can be safely said

 

"At the present time, although there have been no further formal announcements, most available evidence indicates that the LDS Church fully intends to pursue the direction given in the 1931 First Presidency statement, namely to leave questions regarding evolution (in a broad sense encompassing the age of the earth, the proliferation of species and the causes of speciation and adaptations) to the world of scientific research, and not become embroiled in scientific or technical controversies."

I dont want to derail the thread but in truth, for the record, the official doctrine of the church is that man did not evolve from a lower order of animals.

[cinepro]

Before answering question #3, I would suggest that participants review the information here:

 

The Church and a Global Flood

 

And before appealing to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism for anything, participants should remember this...

 

 

 

Lest the role of the Encyclopedia be given more weight than it deserves, the editors make it clear that those who have written and edited have only tried to explain their understanding of Church history, doctrines, and procedures; their statements and opinions remain their own. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism is a joint product of Brigham Young University and Macmillan Publishing Company, and its contents do not necessarily represent the official position of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In no sense does the Encyclopedia have the force and authority of scripture.

Edited November 17, 2013 by cinepro

[juliann]

Before answering question #3, I would suggest that participants review the information here:

 

The Church and a Global Flood

 

And before appealing to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism for anything, participants should remember this...

Nice collection of quotes but you leave out the most important part...what covering the earth or world meant in ancient times when their world was, well, limited.     Your quotes are quite old (the newer ones aren't really saying what you need them to).   That this topic has gone quiet is meaningful in that Mormon way of ignoring things until they go away.   You do need current quotes.

 

The disclaimer on the EofM is also not impressive, especially considering GAs like Oaks and Maxwell were involved not to mention BYU.  And to say it doesn't have the force of scripture is kind of a duh.  Nothing has the force of scripture except scripture.

[Rob Osborn]

Nice collection of quotes but you leave out the most important part...what covering the earth or world meant in ancient times when their world was, well, limited.     Your quotes are quite old (the newer ones aren't really saying what you need them to).   That this topic has gone quiet is meaningful in that Mormon way of ignoring things until they go away.   You do need current quotes.

 

The disclaimer on the EofM is also not impressive, especially considering GAs like Oaks and Maxwell were involved not to mention BYU.  And to say it doesn't have the force of scripture is kind of a duh.  Nothing has the force of scripture except scripture.

You are right, the scriptures teach the whole world was flooded. That was from Moses point of view who saw the entire earth in vision. I guess that answers that- the entire earth was flooded.

[canard78]

You should use it as an answer even if you disagree with it as this survey is not teach correct doctrine but find out how members understand it.

Agreed. DB, let the critiques slide like water off a duck's back. This thread alone is interesting as it illustrates what people believe. We need to represent those options in the survey.

[canard78]

Or put BYU into another question.

Seconded, one question per question is good practice

[Anne E. Prufe]

Where does Church doctrine declare this  ------>  "Evolution of man from a lower order of animals is false even though this false teaching is taught at BYU."

 

How about over 500 pages of statements from Latter-day prophets?  http://www.josephsmithforum.org/research/faqs/science/

 

And before a discussion starts about conflicting statements, here is a response: http://www.josephsmithforum.org/research/faqs/08-conflicting-presidents-are-there-many-conflicting-opinions-with-diversity-of-viewpoint-among-the-previous-presidents-of-the-church-on-the-theory-of-organic-evolution-have-some-spoken-for-some-a/ 

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man

[omni]

Nice collection of quotes but you leave out the most important part...what covering the earth or world meant in ancient times when their world was, well, limited.     Your quotes are quite old (the newer ones aren't really saying what you need them to).   That this topic has gone quiet is meaningful in that Mormon way of ignoring things until they go away.   You do need current quotes.

 

All of his quotes were from the 1970s-2000s, how are these not current enough? Were the GAs, apostles and prophets making these statements over the pulpit or in official church publications simply not aware that Noah was referring to his limited world? How does a limited flood jive with the belief (or doctrine For many) that the flood was symbolism for the Earth's baptism?

[JLHPROF]

I have to say I found the wording of the multiple choices to be limiting and pushing for specific answerst to be given.

[thesometimesaint]

It would be good to first answer the following question, which will undoubtedly cause many members to struggle -

 

What is "official" Church doctrine?

 

a- All words that proceed forth from a prophets mouth, all scripture, all General conference talks,  and all published literature by the church including Ensign, New Era, etc.

 

b - The scriptures only

 

c- http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/priesthood/prophets/doctrine.html

 

I am sure others will want to add to this list, which proves my point of the struggle in defining doctrine in the first place. 

 

 

I like this one. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

[thesometimesaint]

All of his quotes were from the 1970s-2000s, how are these not current enough? Were the GAs, apostles and prophets making these statements over the pulpit or in official church publications simply not aware that Noah was referring to his limited world? How does a limited flood jive with the belief (or doctrine For many) that the flood was symbolism for the Earth's baptism?

 

See Encyclopedia of Mormonism http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Earth

 

THE GREAT FLOOD. The Old Testament records a flood that was just over fifteen cubits (sometimes assumed to be about twenty-six feet) deep and covered the entire landscape: "And all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered" (Gen. 7:19). Scientifically this account leaves many questions unanswered, especially how a measurable depth could cover mountains. Elder John A. Widtsoe, writing in 1943, offered this perspective: The fact remains that the exact nature of the flood is not known. We set up assumptions, based upon our best knowledge, but can go no further. We should remember that when inspired writers deal with historical incidents they relate that which they have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to them by revelation.

[Calm]

That part of my brain that like to think up clever...not always worthwhile, but always interesting just kicked into gear...however this may not br respectful...because I would be interested to see how one might measure influence of authority...

It would have to be last in the series of the sectional surveys, you want them far enough so the question is remembered, but maybe the reasoning is fading. Choose from the collection the questions this works best with and have one answer intentionally "right" with greater detail etc. .only its answer is not the same one he gave before. Have a diiferent set up depending on previous answer, just making it clear that what he thought was the right answer is wrong. Start out with very minor changes and thennsome fairmormon stuff and then ramp up to having excerpts from minor policy books, and then the chi and start using conference talks without identifying it as such and the read it as a conference talk with no name and the next, using an audio, then video identifying who it is.

Have to include some possible questionsas in policy for the future..get people's opinion on how it should be written, see how much of the more complicated text gets put in the more noticeable that authority becomes.

If it could be done right, we might be able to create a measure of influence...will they stick to their own answer or come over immediately or morre slow while being influence. Could have negative influences as well like music that many members are uncomfortable with, a tv show with coarse humour...arguing in the back ground...stuff that drives the Spirit insane so tI speak.

I literally cannot see what I am writing now, the letter are fading in and out in wondrous shell colous, and they are all floating on a random matte of rainbow dust.

No sleep last night, need some of the more fun kind of help today. Off to sleep. I give this a fifty fifty being readable. Well maybe a lot higher with auto correct.

[omni]

See Encyclopedia of Mormonism http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Earth

 

THE GREAT FLOOD. The Old Testament records a flood that was just over fifteen cubits (sometimes assumed to be about twenty-six feet) deep and covered the entire landscape: "And all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered" (Gen. 7:19). Scientifically this account leaves many questions unanswered, especially how a measurable depth could cover mountains. Elder John A. Widtsoe, writing in 1943, offered this perspective: The fact remains that the exact nature of the flood is not known. We set up assumptions, based upon our best knowledge, but can go no further. We should remember that when inspired writers deal with historical incidents they relate that which they have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to them by revelation.

This is one book giving a neutral argument for a local flood with a disclaimer clearly stating it as opinion. As we've learned many times on this board, books such as Mormon Doctrine, Doctrines of Salvation, and now EoM are solely the opinions of their respective authors. Instead, for the argument in favor of a global flood you have many statements by many leaders since the beginning of the restoration. IMO, that fits the definition of doctrine than can be found on the church's newsroom website.

[pmccombs1]

... I would love input as to other questions that could be asked.  ...

 

 

15) The official name of the Church is:

       a) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

       b) The Church of Jesus Christ of No Official Position

[thesometimesaint]

This is one book giving a neutral argument for a local flood with a disclaimer clearly stating it as opinion. As we've learned many times on this board, books such as Mormon Doctrine, Doctrines of Salvation, and now EoM are solely the opinions of their respective authors. Instead, for the argument in favor of a global flood you have many statements by many leaders since the beginning of the restoration. IMO, that fits the definition of doctrine than can be found on the church's newsroom website.

 

Everyone including many leaders is/are entitled to their own opinion on any subject they want. The Church has refused to make doctrine on the subject of the Flood, or on Evolution. Doctrine is established by unanimous agreement between the First Presidency AND the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles AND the First Quorum of the Seventy AND by  Common Consent. No unanimous agreement no doctrine. We all agree that Noah was a Prophet of God. That Noah built a boat, and tried to save as much as he could. The depth and extent of the waters is not agreed upon.

[rameumptom]

1-4 C

5 B

6 C

7 A

8-9 D

10-13 C

14 B

 

I personally would reword the answer to 11 C, though.  It is the best answer, but flawed IMO

[Buckeye]

DB - at the risk of raising something that some else already did (I have not read all the comments), I would add a question or possibly a series of questions getting at what are the "core" or "foundational" doctrines of the church.  I'm sure you've seen the recent church newsroom response to Senator Reid saying that the church's definition of marriage, which excludes gay marriage, is a foundational doctrine and that foundational doctrines cannot change.  Apparently non-foundational doctrines can change.  But good luck try getting any church leader to say which doctrines are foundational and which aren't.  It would be very interesting to see what average members consider to be core. 

 

If you're inclined, I would ask "On a scale of 1-5, do you believe that the following teachings of the church can change? (1=never, 2=possible, but it would be bad; 3=unsure; 4=could change; 5=should change).  Also leave an option for "I don't believe that is our doctrine."

• God's existence
• Christ's resurrection
• BOM historicity
• BOA translation
• Polygamy will be required in to merit the highest reward
• Polylgamy will be allowed in the eternities
• Necessity of saving ordinances offered by the LDS church
• Eternal nature of families
• Homosexual unions cannot be eternal
• The racial priesthood ban was instituted or at least approved by God
• The gender priesthood ban was instituted or at least approved by God
• God will not allow the prophet to lead the church astray
• God intends for men to preside over their wife.
• Tatoos defile the temple of God
• Garments should be worn day and night
• The garment pattern

As I'm making this list, I can see it could easily go on forever.  Whatever you chose, I would not just include the standard historical issues (polygamy, priesthood ban, etc), but would include a range of current and evolving teachings such as modesty (sleeve length, piercings, tatoos) and word of wisdom so that you get a good picture of how members approach teachings that are in flux.