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sdc999

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I was issued a CFR on the other side.  Is the CFR a laziness issue?  Yes, I can understand if someone cites some obscure resource but it seems as if effort to obtain knowledge is very limited.  My wife and I have raised two children and when they wanted to understand something more, we always encouraged them to go and research for themselves.  I think it has worked, or at least for them, because they now have the ability to understand things for themselves rather than being spoonfed.  

We live in a world of endless resources now.  Almost anything can be seen with a few clicks of the keys.  No, not all is accurate but if you put forth a little effort, you can sift through several sources to make an educated decision.  And, as a result, I believe you are a better person (more educated) for it.

 

Again,  CFRs seem to fly around a lot.  For the most part, I say laziness.  What say you

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If I make a statement on this board I must be prepared to back it up with references. It is not the duty of the readers to search for some resource to back up MY assertion. That said, of course it is a good idea a reader to follow up on some statements and do his/her own research. Occasionally a CFR is made as a 'put up or shut up' type of call. Most of the time it is a 'please direct me to a source for your idea' type. Giving a member the benefit of the doubt on intent is not a bad idea. Getting all huffy and defensive is, well....

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I say two things.

 

First, there is a board rule which states that you can't claim something is a fact unless you can provide references that support your assertion.  When you sign up to post on this board, you agree to the rules, so if you honestly have a problem with being issued CFRs, you probably shouldn't have become a member.  (Not saying that in a snarky manner, but just pointing out an observation.)

 

Second, you aren't anyone's parent on here.  As a parent it is your job to teach your children how to function on their own in the real world.  Your parenting style on this issue works on a certain level, but it ignores two BIG issues: 

 

-On this message board, parenting the other posters is not the point.  Nor is it your job. All the posters here are on equal footing-they are colleagues, for lack of a better term-and treating those you are talking to like children is not appropriate.

 

-Read any academic paper and what will you find?  References for all assertions made.  Why?  Because that is how academia works.  Adults in academic settings are not allowed to assert facts without providing references.  It is ALWAYS the job of the person making the assertions to back them up.  If someone submitted a paper for publication and told the person reading it that it was their job to find references to support what they are saying, and that if they don't want to it's just laziness, they would be laughed out of the building (and probably the field they were in).  This is how the real world handles these kinds of issues.  This board matches the real academic world in this regard. 

 

Given that, you might want to make sure that while you are teaching your children how to find their own information (a very important thing), you are also teaching them that in almost every other situation, they will be required to provide references for any assertions of facts that they make.  If they don't understand that, they are really going to struggle thru school.

 

:)

 

Agreed, and I'd like to add that we don't have agree with any particular reference. It still satisfies the CFR.

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If I make a statement on this board I must be prepared to back it up with references. It is not the duty of the readers to search for some resource to back up MY assertion. That said, of course it is a good idea a reader to follow up on some statements and do his/her own research. Occasionally a CFR is made as a 'put up or shut up' type of call. Most of the time it is a 'please direct me to a source for your idea' type. Giving a member the benefit of the doubt on intent is not a bad idea. Getting all huffy and defensive is, well....

 

I agree with the underlined statement... but I don't see that bluebell's post was huffy or defensive...

 

GG

Edited by Garden Girl
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I agree with the underlined statement... but I don't see that bluebell's post was huffy or defensive...

GG

This is a problem on all sites. People cannot hear inflection or read emotion and think others are angry, or dismissive, when they are not. Also CFR's are not taken as seriously as any of us may like, nor do others always share the urgency that we may feel. The challenge is to "do our best and let it rest" (sorry the poet in me) :)

I agree with you Bluebell did not seem huffy or dismissive. I try not to bold type and underline, for fear others may think I am trying to offend.

GG,

We are freezing here in Atlanta this week, which usually means warmer temps in the West. How is the weather on the beach?

Edited by Bill “Papa” Lee
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I wasn't offended when the person said, "you are confused' ie. I must just be spouting off.  I do like a conversation where someone comes back and says, 'you're wrong and here's why."  Not, I believe you're wrong so prove it to me.  I'm a big boy and have been proven wrong on occasions. (I am married ;) ) Just my nature I guess. 

It does seem to be working pretty well with my kids as one graduated 2nd in her class and now holds a 4.0 at a nice university and the other is currently on track to graduate first in her class.  The one thing that would always make me proud as a parent was that teachers weren't always happy that my kids would correct them in class.  And they didn't do it by telling the teacher they didn't believe them but by going out and finding the 'right' answer and then reporting back. The gov't teacher to my youngest says she doesn't have a filter.  Proud dad moment.   That is really how the real world works rather than always taking someone's word.  NOT political:  currently some are saying a whole bunch have signed up.  Opponents aren't saying prove it, they are going to the source themselves and saying: you're wrong, our data shows otherwise.

When I get on this board, I hope to understand why someone feels the way they do.  I hope to understand my good LDS friend's thoughts better, my in-laws as well.  I research what is said and react.

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I wasn't offended when the person said, "you are confused' ie. I must just be spouting off.  I do like a conversation where someone comes back and says, 'you're wrong and here's why."  Not, I believe you're wrong so prove it to me.  I'm a big boy and have been proven wrong on occasions. (I am married ;) ) Just my nature I guess. 

It does seem to be working pretty well with my kids as one graduated 2nd in her class and now holds a 4.0 at a nice university and the other is currently on track to graduate first in her class.  The one thing that would always make me proud as a parent was that teachers weren't always happy that my kids would correct them in class.  And they didn't do it by telling the teacher they didn't believe them but by going out and finding the 'right' answer and then reporting back. The gov't teacher to my youngest says she doesn't have a filter.  Proud dad moment.   That is really how the real world works rather than always taking someone's word.  NOT political:  currently some are saying a whole bunch have signed up.  Opponents aren't saying prove it, they are going to the source themselves and saying: you're wrong, our data shows otherwise.

When I get on this board, I hope to understand why someone feels the way they do.  I hope to understand my good LDS friend's thoughts better, my in-laws as well.  I research what is said and react.

 

That's great that your kids have done so well.  Obviously, they already understand they can't submit academic work with no references and expect to be taken seriously.

 

If being CFR'd truly bothers you, this really might not be the place for you (though I hope you will stay!).  :)

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I wasn't offended when the person said, "you are confused' ie. I must just be spouting off.  I do like a conversation where someone comes back and says, 'you're wrong and here's why."  Not, I believe you're wrong so prove it to me.  I'm a big boy and have been proven wrong on occasions. (I am married ;) ) Just my nature I guess. 

It does seem to be working pretty well with my kids as one graduated 2nd in her class and now holds a 4.0 at a nice university and the other is currently on track to graduate first in her class.  The one thing that would always make me proud as a parent was that teachers weren't always happy that my kids would correct them in class.  And they didn't do it by telling the teacher they didn't believe them but by going out and finding the 'right' answer and then reporting back. The gov't teacher to my youngest says she doesn't have a filter.  Proud dad moment.   That is really how the real world works rather than always taking someone's word.  NOT political:  currently some are saying a whole bunch have signed up.  Opponents aren't saying prove it, they are going to the source themselves and saying: you're wrong, our data shows otherwise.

When I get on this board, I hope to understand why someone feels the way they do.  I hope to understand my good LDS friend's thoughts better, my in-laws as well.  I research what is said and react.

 

If you are having a discussion with someone about some topic and you and they take different sides in the discussion, how willing are you to take an assertion from them that proves their point, and disproves yours, without some assurance that the fact they use is true?  Maybe you are willing to just give up your position on the flimsiest of assertions, but others perhaps are not.

 

I usually try to provide the CFR data when I make my assertion, if I care about the topic.  Saves time.

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Now I may be confused, but it appears you may be talking about our exchange...

 

I said IIRC (though my memory is so poor these days, I may be wrong) "I think you are confused" which certainly allowed at least in my mind the possibility that you were right and I was the one confused...there are several lawsuits that in my experience are discussed whenever this topic is brought up.  I was thinking of the one most often brought up which does not, imo, support the claim as the argument wasn't over the right to excommunication, IIRC, but how they went about it...I apologize for assuming that this conversation was a repeat of several in the past and instead you were actually discussing a different lawsuit than most point to ime.

 

I asked for a cfr for two reasons as I usually do when something is being discussed without being identified, I wanted to be sure we were thinking about the same lawsuit and the only way to do that was for you to list the one you were talking about and second, if it was an accurate description I wanted more information.  When I ask for cfr for additional information, I almost always do my own research as well (if it wasn't for thoroughness, it would be done for impatience), but I still ask for it in case the poster has access to better information that I haven't come across in online research.

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I was issued a CFR on the other side.  Is the CFR a laziness issue?  Yes, I can understand if someone cites some obscure resource but it seems as if effort to obtain knowledge is very limited.  My wife and I have raised two children and when they wanted to understand something more, we always encouraged them to go and research for themselves.  I think it has worked, or at least for them, because they now have the ability to understand things for themselves rather than being spoonfed.  

We live in a world of endless resources now.  Almost anything can be seen with a few clicks of the keys.  No, not all is accurate but if you put forth a little effort, you can sift through several sources to make an educated decision.  And, as a result, I believe you are a better person (more educated) for it.

 

Again,  CFRs seem to fly around a lot.  For the most part, I say laziness.  What say you

Since you ask:

 

If it would be easy for someone else to find a reference to back your statement, it would  presumably be even easier for you to do so. Why?  Because you supposedly already have the knowledge and know where you got it.  If the other guy is lazy because he issues a CFR rather than looking it up, what would that make you for refusing to do even less work? 

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I was issued a CFR on the other side.  Is the CFR a laziness issue?  Yes, I can understand if someone cites some obscure resource but it seems as if effort to obtain knowledge is very limited.  My wife and I have raised two children and when they wanted to understand something more, we always encouraged them to go and research for themselves.  I think it has worked, or at least for them, because they now have the ability to understand things for themselves rather than being spoonfed.  

We live in a world of endless resources now.  Almost anything can be seen with a few clicks of the keys.  No, not all is accurate but if you put forth a little effort, you can sift through several sources to make an educated decision.  And, as a result, I believe you are a better person (more educated) for it.

 

Again,  CFRs seem to fly around a lot.  For the most part, I say laziness.  What say you

I say that if you are asked to give support for an assertion that you are required to supply it.  If you can't, the appropriate thing to do is concede or leave the conversation before the mods escort you out.  This prevents threads disintegrating into an endless "yes it is/no it isn't" opinion slamfest that usually results in a break down of posting etiquette.

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