Joining Another Church As Grounds For Church Discipline?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

^{A Church court is always at the discretion of the local leadership regardless of the reason for such a court.} 

Good point, if the person does not come forward, are very public sins action is usually not taken. In the case of spouse and child abuse...it will end up there. I have sat on High Counsel meetings where the person admitted to something but refused to attend disciplinary court.

[Calm]

I believe there was a lawsuit about just this to which the church began to having to allow resignations.

 

I think you are confused by another church's lawsuit which wasn't just about membership.  If you believe there was actually a lawsuit against the LDS Church, please cfr.

Do you remember me? I've joined two other churches (Roman Catholic Church and Ordo Templi Orientis). I might do more. I dunno. I'm kind of happy with three at the moment.

I was just going to post your name as an example when you showed up.  Nice to see you.  

[Veles]

Can someone explain a situation to me (real or hypothetical) in which someone would join another church but still wish to maintain their LDS Church membership?

You can take an Universalist-Unitarian, for example...

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Can someone explain a situation to me (real or hypothetical) in which someone would join another church but still wish to maintain their LDS Church membership?

Marriage or marrying into...and that River flows both ways.

[sdc999]

I think you are confused by another church's lawsuit which wasn't just about membership.  If you believe there was actually a lawsuit against the LDS Church, please cfr.

 

Norman Hancock vs LDS church.

http://mormon-alliance.org/casereports/volume3/part1/v3p1c05.htm

This is a well documented case where the individual resigned and the church continued to excommunicate him.  During the lawsuit, he refused money  from the church but settled on having the 'excommunication' removed and the resignation to stand.  As a result, the CHI were altered thereafter to allow for resignations.   

Your CFR really baffles me.  This is one of the problems where exmormons state that mormons have their head in the sand.  A couple of clicks of the keys and this is all over google.  It's as if someone says something you don't want to hear and you stick your fingers in your ears and start yelling 'la la la la la la'.    I'm willing to admit this goes both ways though.  When an exmember is told something to their contrary, they are not willing to research either; they just want to cite bob's second cousin from his mother twice removed as a source and hold firm to it. 

[mercyngrace]

Well, I've been thinking of attending a second church for one main reason. Service opportunities. 

 

Many churches in our area have soup kitchens, run AA meetings, offer temporary shelter to the homeless, take care of immigrant farm workers, teach reading and ESL, and are just a LOT more active than ours in our local community. And frankly it's much easier to get involved or become part of the regular crew in some of these activities if you are a member of the sponsoring church.

 

Our ward does more distant kinds of service (food and clothing drives, making kits for other organizations to distribute, etc), distributing food on weekends through urban ministries, and a couple of times a year our youth join with a local ministry to feed the homeless and we use it as an evangelism tool, handing out Books of Mormon as well (most of which get left in the park). Of course, we've done disaster cleanup as well but that's sporadic (thankfully) and doesn't meet the long-term daily needs of the suffering people in our community.

 

I'm not looking for new theology, just to become part of another community which gives more direct service on a regular basis to the most desperate people in our area. I'd join a second church for that.

[Stone holm]

^{A Church court is always at the discretion of the local leadership regardless of the reason for such a court.} 

^{Life is difficult and many people seem to be wanderers without ever really finding a home.  They move from church to church or religion to religion without ever putting down deep roots.}  

^{In regards to joining another church while being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, it only becomes problematic when the Bishop or SP thinks it is.  It often will never become a problem unless the individual begins to attack the Church in a public way.  I recently listened to a fellow on YouTube that was a previous bishop and joined an Evangelical group. Write to his son while on his mission to discuss the book he had written attacking the Church and tried to get his daughters to read it.  He told a story of giving it to one daughter who took it and immediately threw it in the trash - as if that was a very pitiful situation for this father to endure.  This is the kind of individual that would be excommunicated.   Fortunately, he was a man with some integrity and had his name removed.} 

^{If you advocate for your new church and attack the Church of Jesus Christ you should expect an invitation to a Church Court. If you simply dissolve into the space of humanity and do your own thing; no one will say a thing.  My question is when the Bridegroom calls who will hear and have their lamps full of oil?}

 

I take it you didn't get the memo. -- its no longer politically correct to use the term "Church Court."  Its "disciplinary council"....we are supposed to just bask in the love....its all warm and cuddily here.

[Duncan]

Well, I've been thinking of attending a second church for one main reason. Service opportunities. 

 

Many churches in our area have soup kitchens, run AA meetings, offer temporary shelter to the homeless, take care of immigrant farm workers, teach reading and ESL, and are just a LOT more active than ours in our local community. And frankly it's much easier to get involved or become part of the regular crew in some of these activities if you are a member of the sponsoring church.

 

Our ward does more distant kinds of service (food and clothing drives, making kits for other organizations to distribute, etc), distributing food on weekends through urban ministries, and a couple of times a year our youth join with a local ministry to feed the homeless and we use it as an evangelism tool, handing out Books of Mormon as well (most of which get left in the park). Of course, we've done disaster cleanup as well but that's sporadic (thankfully) and doesn't meet the long-term daily needs of the suffering people in our community.

 

I'm not looking for new theology, just to become part of another community which gives more direct service on a regular basis to the most desperate people in our area. I'd join a second church for that.

 

 

Jiminy Christmas! you should move here! Our Stake, through grassroots efforts, does ESL, ARP, house exchange students, volunteer weekly(a ward is assigned so someone is going) at a soup kitchen, blood drives, community sings with Mary Mother of somebody Catholic Church, we also do a HUGE food drive in the summer for this local organization that feeds homeless folks.

[Alan]

It didn't used to be grounds for church discipline (unless one became anti), but it is now. See church handbook.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It didn't used to be grounds for church discipline (unless one became anti), but it is now. See church handbook.

I think the confusion is between membership and Temple Recommend. ???

[thesometimesaint]

Well, I've been thinking of attending a second church for one main reason. Service opportunities. 

 

Many churches in our area have soup kitchens, run AA meetings, offer temporary shelter to the homeless, take care of immigrant farm workers, teach reading and ESL, and are just a LOT more active than ours in our local community. And frankly it's much easier to get involved or become part of the regular crew in some of these activities if you are a member of the sponsoring church.

 

Our ward does more distant kinds of service (food and clothing drives, making kits for other organizations to distribute, etc), distributing food on weekends through urban ministries, and a couple of times a year our youth join with a local ministry to feed the homeless and we use it as an evangelism tool, handing out Books of Mormon as well (most of which get left in the park). Of course, we've done disaster cleanup as well but that's sporadic (thankfully) and doesn't meet the long-term daily needs of the suffering people in our community.

 

I'm not looking for new theology, just to become part of another community which gives more direct service on a regular basis to the most desperate people in our area. I'd join a second church for that.

 

The Church has a long history of working with other religious organizations dedicated to public service. We just don't agree with their theology.

[Damien the Leper]

I was always under the impression that an LDS member, on paper at least, was subject to church discipline. I actually agree with the LDS Handbook on this. There are privileges and blessings that come with faithful membership.

 

As a non-LDS, I wouldn't participate in taking their Sacrament because I don't recognise it as valid Communion. I don't recognise the priesthood authority as valid. But this isn't the point. I'm not LDS and not entitled to those blessings and privileges because of the covenant which LDS have entered into.

[mercyngrace]

The Church has a long history of working with other religious organizations dedicated to public service. We just don't agree with their theology.

No one said any different TSS. 

[Calm]

Norman Hancock vs LDS church.

http://mormon-alliance.org/casereports/volume3/part1/v3p1c05.htm

This is a well documented case where the individual resigned and the church continued to excommunicate him.  During the lawsuit, he refused money  from the church but settled on having the 'excommunication' removed and the resignation to stand.  As a result, the CHI were altered thereafter to allow for resignations.   

Your CFR really baffles me.  This is one of the problems where exmormons state that mormons have their head in the sand.  A couple of clicks of the keys and this is all over google.  It's as if someone says something you don't want to hear and you stick your fingers in your ears and start yelling 'la la la la la la'.    I'm willing to admit this goes both ways though.  When an exmember is told something to their contrary, they are not willing to research either; they just want to cite bob's second cousin from his mother twice removed as a source and hold firm to it. 

Give me a break.  It has been a hard couple of days with little time for the board and much less for googling unless it is to try and find out doctor's numbers or how to fix water softeners and other plumbing potential issues (we've already had our basement flooded three time in the past 5 years...and now it is renovated...no thank you).  I have heard of a number of lawsuits dealing with other churches and my memory just so happens to be better for those...probably talked about them when I was fully concious and processing while the other may have been referred to on one of my less better days.

 

I would have thought my constant googling for myself and others on the board would have long ago demonstrated that I not only do not have a problem with research, but am obsessed with it...but even I cannot research 24/7...in fact the only reason I can even post now is after a night of no sleep I am trying to calm down enough to pass out (got lots of work done...got all my library organized and almost all the decorations back out...missing a box and am wasting so much time looking for it, but it has the geodes and the gorgeous rock bookends and I am going to be....very disturbed if I can't find it because the only way it left this house is someone intentionally walking off with it...which means it adds a bad taste about all the renovation that went on).

 

If I was the type that put my fingers in my eyes**** why in the world would I ask for a cfr for more information so I could learn about it?

 

My version:  "This is one of the problems where mormons state that exmormons always look for the bad and assume the worst when simple and reasonable explanations exist."....see how easy that is...and worthless.

 

Thank you for the link, I will read it when I don't have a drug that interferes with my memory in full strength...I've lost more than just a cite or two, I've lost days and almost a month once...

 

****I actually meant ears, but considering how it is a computer screen, eyes is more appropriate for this venue...

Edited November 15, 2013 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

No one said any different TSS. 

 

Then why would you be interested in joining another church?

[mercyngrace]

Then why would you be interested in joining another church?

 

Did you read my post?

 

You wrote "The Church has a long history of working with other religious organizations dedicated to public service." as if that implies that in every ward or branch, in every stake, in every location around the world, "The Church" serves in the ways I described in my post. This is simply not so. And the fact that Duncan's ward does some of the charitable acts I feel called to do, doesn't satisfy my responsibility to do the same. If those opportunities are not offered by my local ward or stake, then I am obliged to either strike out on my own, where I can do little, or to join with others and do more. The latter makes sense to me. Attending other church meetings and auxiliaries gives you a real chance to get involved and to get to know the planners behind the various service ventures. Plenty of churches welcome attendees without any covenant making. I don't see where there would be a conflict. 

 

Besides, I love going to church. 

[BCSpace]

I was always under the impression that an LDS member, on paper at least, was subject to church discipline. I actually agree with the LDS Handbook on this. There are privileges and blessings that come with faithful membership.

 

 

Bishops and Stake Presidents have quite a bit of discretionary leeway and the right to judge cases with different details and circumstances differently.  There are certainly people in some Stakes who are members who would be excommunicated post haste in other Stakes; which of course will seem totally unfair to many folks but I see it as a necessary tool of flexibility and helps to keep us adaptable. 

 

In our own local ward, we had a member who never came to Church and professed to be a member of some other church when we came by.  We generally let him be and didn't concern ourselves with it except to at least do our duty to look out for him as a member of our Ward.  If he had become public about it, then for sure there would have been disciplinary measures taken.  The fact that he was elderly  and alone also played a role and we occasionally touched bases with his family so they could know he was still hale.

[Stone holm]

Did you read my post?

 

You wrote "The Church has a long history of working with other religious organizations dedicated to public service." as if that implies that in every ward or branch, in every stake, in every location around the world, "The Church" serves in the ways I described in my post. This is simply not so. And the fact that Duncan's ward does some of the charitable acts I feel called to do, doesn't satisfy my responsibility to do the same. If those opportunities are not offered by my local ward or stake, then I am obliged to either strike out on my own, where I can do little, or to join with others and do more. The latter makes sense to me. Attending other church meetings and auxiliaries gives you a real chance to get involved and to get to know the planners behind the various service ventures. Plenty of churches welcome attendees without any covenant making. I don't see where there would be a conflict. 

 

Besides, I love going to church. 

 

I remember back in Indiana that the Bishop's wife objected to putting her boys in our Ward Pack because she thought Cub Scouts should be a community thing, so they were in the Methodist Pack and our Bishop was the Scoutmaster for the Methodist Church, and she was right in most areas (perhaps not including Utah and Idaho) we really aren't seen as a community Church even though we may help out on community things, we still aren't seen as part of the community.  I guess that fact sort of bothers me from time to time, but then I roll over and go back to sleep...can't get everything right.

[mfbukowski]

In the Church Handbook of instructions (I believe manual 1), the section on Apostasy is fairly clear that joining another church is grounds for excommunication.

Yes, subject to, of course, the Bishop's discretion.

 

Whether or not it happens is another question.  Flaunt it, and it probably will.