Gender Is Eternal

[danielwoods]

How do you all interpret Galatians 3 then? 

 

 

^3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

²⁷ For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

[jkwilliams]

How do you all interpret Galatians 3 then? 

 

 

^3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

²⁷ For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I always took that as meaning that God loves us all equally.

[danielwoods]

I always took that as meaning that God loves us all equally.

 

Ok. 

[jkwilliams]

Ok.

To clarify, I love my children. I don't have a favorite, but I love them all equally. I think the scripture you cited is a way of saying that God is no respecter of persons, meaning that He doesn't have favorites. To Him, we aren't the white one or the black one or the married one or the single one; we're just His children. Edited November 6, 2013 by jkwilliams

[EllenMaksoud]

I always took that as meaning that God loves us all equally.

I must say that I have been admonished by MODS to not speak about my self upon threat of restriction, so participation in this thread makes me feel quite threatened. As you all now know, I have direct knowledge of the situation. It is a great surprise to me that I am now Mormon ! Since March of 2011 it has felt increasingly safe to be a member, living quietly, not speaking of the past, and no one knowing about it since it is not readily evident that the brain and body are in conflict. It is utterly astonishing that no one seems to tumble to my past that I do not tell. I am quite fearful now.

 

This whole incident feels like I've fallen down the rabbit hole and is quite discomfiting.  This conversation would only be possible in a group of Mormons. Believe me, there is no mercy in the churches in my past.  I have quite a lot of contact, perhaps more than I should,  with members of the so called "Trans", community. Warning others off from that path seems to me my role, and few seem to listen.

 

So far, the church has been uncommonly kind to me. My appearance does not betray me. Baptism came as a huge surprise, and I did not believe it would happen until I felt the water going up my nose. Heavenly Father seems to support the idea because of the astonishing healing he has gifted me. Some few members of the church do as they wish, and Heavenly Father does as he wishes. Not once has any member of the church said anything unkind to me. And it is a great pleasure to have been privileged to be amongst such gentle folk. Gandhi said, "You can only find yourself by losing yourself in the service of others", and that has been my aim. The depression and feelings of utter condemnation lift when there are service things to do, and my only complaint is that they do not keep me occupied sufficiently.

 

There will not be Temple Recommend, and though there were tears and grief at the news, it is better now.

 

As God is my witness,  I never intended to be a member and I vow that I never intended to hurt the church. I am not any part what so ever of any activist movement. The Prophet and the Holy Spirit will have to work this out, not angry abrasive individuals bent on the church's destruction.

 

Fearfulness that some hateful member would eventually hunt me down and expose me to the church has not often overtaken me. Today it dominates me and makes me feel weak.

[Calm]

I find the phrase God loves us equally unappealing (same for when it is used elsewhere). It suggests there is an limited amount of love that God dispenses to each individual that we can measure and compare. I don't believe this remotely resembles reality. God loves his children in infinite ways.

And I will never say I love my children equally as if they were some cookie cutter identical individuals. They are unique as is my love for them and I find it inconceivable that I could ever find a way to measure that love or compare one experience to the other.

[Rob Osborn]

I was at the hospital late at night a few years back and I ran into a hermaphrodite who was happily married to his wife. He was born with sex organs of both male and female and at times in his life switched back and forth in confusion, as he said, as to his gender identity. He successfully had children with his wife and they remain happily married although he still stuggles with his gender identity dressing as a woman but acting as a man, father, etc. It opened my eyes to this issue and I felt genuinely disheartened for both him and his spouse and family- what a great obstacle and one that he didnt ask for nor his wife or family. It helps me to realize that in the end heavenly father will sort everything out, fix all the "bugs" in his creation and provide each individual with a perfect body and also a perfect mind and spirit that is not plagued with confusion and the ill effects of human reproduction flaws.

 

We are indeed created in the image of God and as such, in our perfect forms we too will want to be just like God possessing all that he is including gender identity. It is sad that there are cases where these lines get crossed up through birth or genetic defects, past negative experiences or willful outright rebellion. God has the power to heal, the power to fix wrongs and make His creations right.

[mfbukowski]

What is TBM?  As to JKwilliams question, the answer is that people like that should die. This conversation makes me feel, not safe and I can not imagine how to do it. I have felt safe with Mormons it was never my intention to be part of this struggle within the church. Others who know the answers should solve this.

TBM is "True Believing Mormon", a group to which I feel I belong.  Many though, in my opinion, take the words on the page too literally, and confuse themselves with statements which they might think are contradictory.  Right or wrong- that is what I meant about John.  I was expressing the opinion that he was trying to confuse people by bringing up unknowable details about how the eternities work- things we will only really understand when it is time for us to do so.

 

No one knows the answers to the "issues" JKW raises- we just have to trust in our Heavenly Father who we know in our hearts knows what we feel and will judge us with more love and mercy than we can possibly imagine here on earth.  Because these answers are unknowable, I view discussions about them to be a waste of time - like debating the number of angels which fit on the head of a pin.  Yet discussions like that can confuse people, especially those who may not know the gospel very well.

[mfbukowski]

That was my question: if the eternal role is set in the premortal existence, how does one not be forced into the "correct" role? I am truly not meaning to offend or stir the pot, but I'm genuinely curious as to how other posters work this out.

And I apologize that in bringing this up I inadvertently caused pain to people who are dealing with these issues personally. I was not aware of that.

The answer is that we don't know but trust in the Lord to handle it perfectly.

[mfbukowski]

I was at the hospital late at night a few years back and I ran into a hermaphrodite who was happily married to his wife. He was born with sex organs of both male and female and at times in his life switched back and forth in confusion, as he said, as to his gender identity. He successfully had children with his wife and they remain happily married although he still stuggles with his gender identity dressing as a woman but acting as a man, father, etc. It opened my eyes to this issue and I felt genuinely disheartened for both him and his spouse and family- what a great obstacle and one that he didnt ask for nor his wife or family. It helps me to realize that in the end heavenly father will sort everything out, fix all the "bugs" in his creation and provide each individual with a perfect body and also a perfect mind and spirit that is not plagued with confusion and the ill effects of human reproduction flaws.

 

We are indeed created in the image of God and as such, in our perfect forms we too will want to be just like God possessing all that he is including gender identity. It is sad that there are cases where these lines get crossed up through birth or genetic defects, past negative experiences or willful outright rebellion. God has the power to heal, the power to fix wrongs and make His creations right.

Golly, I seldom get into casual conversations about the shape of my genitals.

 

I guess I must be old fashioned or something.

[pogi]

Heavenly Father seems to support the idea because of the astonishing healing he has gifted me. 

 

Let this be your cornerstone or foundation of your security.  God is for you!  It sounds like you already know that. 

 

 

 

Fearfulness that some hateful member would eventually hunt me down and expose me to the church has not often overtaken me. Today it dominates me and makes me feel weak.

 

"... God is for me...In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me...For thou has delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?" (Psalms 56 9-13).

 

Without knowing your history, I don't know what exposure you fear.  It sounds like the church already knows of your situation.  Are you speaking of being fearful of the local members finding out and judging you?

[EllenMaksoud]

TBM is "True Believing Mormon", a group to which I feel I belong.  Many though, in my opinion, take the words on the page too literally, and confuse themselves with statements which they might think are contradictory.  Right or wrong- that is what I meant about John.  I was expressing the opinion that he was trying to confuse people by bringing up unknowable details about how the eternities work- things we will only really understand when it is time for us to do so.

 

No one knows the answers to the "issues" JKW raises- we just have to trust in our Heavenly Father who we know in our hearts knows what we feel and will judge us with more love and mercy than we can possibly imagine here on earth.  Because these answers are unknowable, I view discussions about them to be a waste of time - like debating the number of angels which fit on the head of a pin.  Yet discussions like that can confuse people, especially those who may not know the gospel very well.

Again, I was sucked in by a non-member, almost like Eve was seduced in the garden. There was never an intention initially to discuss this issue to the extent that it now has. This is the arena of the Prophet and the Holy Spirit, not mine. I have no part in this struggle, though at times it is painful to remain silent. If you would allow me the privilege of saying I am a TBM ...

Edited November 6, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[jkwilliams]

I find the phrase God loves us equally unappealing (same for when it is used elsewhere). It suggests there is an limited amount of love that God dispenses to each individual that we can measure and compare. I don't believe this remotely resembles reality. God loves his children in infinite ways.

And I will never say I love my children equally as if they were some cookie cutter identical individuals. They are unique as is my love for them and I find it inconceivable that I could ever find a way to measure that love or compare one experience to the other.

I love my kids equally, but I know them well enough that I don't interact with them the same way. That would be foolish because each of them is unique, as you say. Thank you for helping me clarify what I meant.

[jkwilliams]

TBM is "True Believing Mormon", a group to which I feel I belong.  Many though, in my opinion, take the words on the page too literally, and confuse themselves with statements which they might think are contradictory.  Right or wrong- that is what I meant about John.  I was expressing the opinion that he was trying to confuse people by bringing up unknowable details about how the eternities work- things we will only really understand when it is time for us to do so.

Well, if nothing else, I see that my intent was misunderstood.

 

No one knows the answers to the "issues" JKW raises- we just have to trust in our Heavenly Father who we know in our hearts knows what we feel and will judge us with more love and mercy than we can possibly imagine here on earth.  Because these answers are unknowable, I view discussions about them to be a waste of time - like debating the number of angels which fit on the head of a pin.  Yet discussions like that can confuse people, especially those who may not know the gospel very well.

I'm fine with "I don't know." In fact, that's the answer I come up with most of the time.

[EllenMaksoud]

Let this be your cornerstone or foundation of your security.  God is for you!  It sounds like you already know that. 

 

 

 

"... God is for me...In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me...For thou has delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?" (Psalms 56 9-13).

 

Without knowing your history, I don't know what exposure you fear.  It sounds like the church already knows of your situation.  Are you speaking of being fearful of the local members finding out and judging you?

Sorry, just being hysterical right now. I have a meeting with church leadership tonight about this very issue. Astonishingly, the leadership is much more supportive than ...

[danielwoods]

To clarify, I love my children. I don't have a favorite, but I love them all equally. I think the scripture you cited is a way of saying that God is no respecter of persons, meaning that He doesn't have favorites. To Him, we aren't the white one or the black one or the married one or the single one; we're just His children.

 

And that's fine. It just doesn't actually deal with the portion of that scripture that disagrees with the LDS view. 

[jkwilliams]

And that's fine. It just doesn't actually deal with the portion of that scripture that disagrees with the LDS view.

What view is that?

[EllenMaksoud]

Let this be your cornerstone or foundation of your security.  God is for you!  It sounds like you already know that. 

 

 

 

"... God is for me...In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me...For thou has delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?" (Psalms 56 9-13).

 

Without knowing your history, I don't know what exposure you fear.  It sounds like the church already knows of your situation.  Are you speaking of being fearful of the local members finding out and judging you?

Yes. I just went into the Visitor's Center in Kirtland, because I was inexplicably fascinated with Mormon history, never dreaming in my wildest imaginings that I would one day be a member. Eventually, my resistance to the love shown me there faded away, though it would not be proven to me that indeed Heavenly Father did love, even me, for over a year, on Baptism. Just after that hatreds and bitternesses that left me feeling guilty and rejected simply began to strangely fade away. It is a story that today, almost 2 years hence makes me obedient, because of gratitude,  to Heavenly Father no matter what rebellion is slowly fomenting within me. We all struggle with willfulness and rebellion and I am no exception.

 

It is during these times that sometimes the desire to revert back to certain Muslim customs comes. In these times, the best place for me is on my hands and knees with my head touching the carpet, expressing gratitude for blessings and remorse for error. May Heavenly Father use this life, as long as it lasts, for his service.

[Nathair/|\]

Again, I was sucked in by a non-member, almost like Eve was seduced in the garden. There was never an intention initially to discuss this issue to the extent that it now has. This is the arena of the Prophet and the Holy Spirit, not mine. I have no part in this struggle, though at times it is painful to remain silent. If you would allow me the privilege of saying I am a TBM ...

For what it's worth, I think you're as entitled to that title as anyone, but you don't really need my support.  What really matters is your Heavenly Parents' opinion and they are completely, madly, eternally in love with you.

[EllenMaksoud]

For what it's worth, I think you're as entitled to that title as anyone, but you don't really need my support.  What really matters is your Heavenly Parents' opinion and they are completely, madly, eternally in love with you.

Thank you.

[EllenMaksoud]

My participation in this thread is ended. I apologise for writing about myself, knowing I was warned by the Mods. My only defense is that it seemed unavoidable.

[katherine the great]

This more or less arbitrary decision to assign gender can have major effects in a person's life. In the LDS church, it creates other issues, which may affect the eternities. Maxine Hanks mentions one interesting and sad case (IMO) from the late 1980s:

"Quote

A former missionary elder underwent medical tests and was discovered to possess the complete reproductive and sexual organs of a female beneath a superficial, non-functional male organ. She had surgery to restore femaleness. Her temple marriage was annulled. It was decided that her priesthood would not be revoked, but she was told she could not exercise it. It was also decided that the priesthood ordinances she performed on her mission, including several baptisms, confirmations, and blessings, would stand as valid ordinances. When she was presumed to be male, she was allowed to exercise priesthood. People accepted her authority, felt the spirit of God, and considered her administration of saving ordinances to be valid. Yet she had the reproductive organs of a woman, not a man.

I'm intrigued by this statement that this individual had "the complete reproductive and sexual organs of a female."  I'm familiar with androgen insensitivity and intersex disorders that blur the line between male and female.  I don't see though how this person could have had a functioning uterus because he/she would have had to have emergency surgery at the onset of menses.  I am not doubting the general story at all, but his body must not have been producing enough estrogen for the process to be triggered.  I wish people understood that sex differences are not as simple as xx and xy.  Sex differences are a combination of chromosomes and hormones.  Most of us are either male or female, but it really is not that uncommon for a child to be born outside the "norm" in this respect.  Historically, women who were actually androgen insensitive xy's would have just married and lived their lives as an infertile woman.  No one (including themselves) would have had a clue that they were "actually" male.  Now that we have the technology to correct this, I personally do not feel that anyone has the right to judge one of these people for opting for corrective surgery once their true sex is revealed to them.  They certainly should not have to face punishment from a religion that they love.

[EllenMaksoud]

I'm intrigued by this statement that this individual had "the complete reproductive and sexual organs of a female."  I'm familiar with androgen insensitivity and intersex disorders that blur the line between male and female.  I don't see though how this person could have had a functioning uterus because he/she would have had to have emergency surgery at the onset of menses.  I am not doubting the general story at all, but his body must not have been producing enough estrogen for the process to be triggered.  I wish people understood that sex differences are not as simple as xx and xy.  Sex differences are a combination of chromosomes and hormones.  Most of us are either male or female, but it really is not that uncommon for a child to be born outside the "norm" in this respect.  Historically, women who were actually androgen insensitive xy's would have just married and lived their lives as an infertile woman.  No one (including themselves) would have had a clue that they were "actually" male.  Now that we have the technology to correct this, I personally do not feel that anyone has the right to judge one of these people for opting for corrective surgery once their true sex is revealed to them.  They certainly should not have to face punishment from a religion that they love.

Being intimately involved with this whole issue, I would issue a CFR on this assertion. On the other hand, no one really needs to know the specifics except for the individual and the Church Authority.  These things can become very painful due to comments from those who really have no right to do or say anything at all.

[katherine the great]

Being intimately involved with this whole issue, I would issue a CFR on this assertion. On the other hand, no one really needs to know the specifics except for the individual and the Church Authority.  These things can become very painful due to comments from those who really have no right to do or say anything at all.

I agree.

[thesometimesaint]

I love my kids equally, but I know them well enough that I don't interact with them the same way. That would be foolish because each of them is unique, as you say. Thank you for helping me clarify what I meant.

 

Agreed.