Gender Is Eternal

[wenglund]

As I understand things, extremely rare exceptions don't disprove the rule, nor do they change upper-case "R's" to lower case.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[BCSpace]

We get hung up on gender and sexual orientation because of the cultural leanings of the day.

 

With the "Progressive" way society is going, women have been turned into mindless genitalia.  Look at the generally popular women's publications.  They're all about breasts, vaginas, orgasms, and the 10 ways you never knew about how to have sex etc.  Politically, it's all about the uterus; birth control and abortion.  The LDS Church treats women as far more than breast bearing uteri and puts them in their proper place, high above where society puts them and with men as co-creators and responsible for raising the next generation according to the standards of the Church.

[Buckeye]

As I understand things, extremely rare exceptions don't disprove the rule, nor do they change upper-case "R's" to lower case.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Republicans?

[wenglund]

Republicans?

 

LOL...I don't think that is what Jeremy had in mind when he spoke earlier in the thread about the Proclamation.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited November 5, 2013 by wenglund

[jkwilliams]

Just to put it in perspective, this isn't all that rare an "exception." Approximately 1 in 2000 births present with multiple sex organs and genitalis. By comparison, my particular birth defect (tracheoesophageal fistula) presents at a rate of 2.82 per 10,000 births. That means I'm special.

Worldwide, more people are born with this complication than are born into the LDS church.

[BCSpace]

Just to put it in perspective, this isn't all that rare an "exception."

 

It is.  It's the same type of perspective that shows that of 50 million or so abortions since Roe v Wade, less than 1% were to save the life of the mother.

[Rivers]

Dunno about anyone else, but personally I think it just shows that the Proclamation is only a proclamation, and not some capital-R Revelation. I think we've treated it with more reverence than we should. There's some good stuff in there, but I also disagree with it in several places, and think the King Follett Discourse and related D&C verses contradict it - I think uncreated Intelligence, the human mind, is only "gendered" when breathed into our physical bodies. I think the Church is going to have to reexamine a lot of these sorts of gender issues in the coming years. 

I don't think that the KFD is a capital R Revelation either.

[Rivers]

With the "Progressive" way society is going, women have been turned into mindless genitalia.  Look at the generally popular women's publications.  They're all about breasts, vaginas, orgasms, and the 10 ways you never knew about how to have sex etc.  Politically, it's all about the uterus; birth control and abortion.  The LDS Church treats women as far more than breast bearing uteri and puts them in their proper place, high above where society puts them and with men as co-creators and responsible for raising the next generation according to the standards of the Church.

amen

[Stone holm]

With the "Progressive" way society is going, women have been turned into mindless genitalia.  Look at the generally popular women's publications.  They're all about breasts, vaginas, orgasms, and the 10 ways you never knew about how to have sex etc.  Politically, it's all about the uterus; birth control and abortion.  The LDS Church treats women as far more than breast bearing uteri and puts them in their proper place, high above where society puts them and with men as co-creators and responsible for raising the next generation according to the standards of the Church.

 

Very interesting, incorrect, but very interesting.  Progressive politics tends to let the woman control her own body, rather have the government control her body.  I am not sure where LDS Doctrine places women, it seems to be morphing right now -- but I rather doubt that a lot of the Sisters would agree with you that the "place" of women is primarily in the nursery and the kitchen -- so to the extent that such an exclusive "nurturing" role is being laid out for women, well that is too will pass.

[ERayR]

So, having one's sealing canceled has no eternal effects? And if the person is "corrected" to a female in the afterlife, that means no priesthood authority; are you saying loss of priesthood authority has no eternal effect, either? Not sure what you mean here.

 

No eternal effect.  She will receive the callings, sealing and authority which is appropriate and reserved for her.  You seem to assume, that in the eternities, one is forced into a mold rather they want it or not.  Nothing is done in mortality that can not be corrected if it is in error.

[Nathair/|\]

Very interesting, incorrect, but very interesting.  Progressive politics tends to let the woman control her own body, rather have the government control her body.  I am not sure where LDS Doctrine places women, it seems to be morphing right now -- but I rather doubt that a lot of the Sisters would agree with you that the "place" of women is primarily in the nursery and the kitchen -- so to the extent that such an exclusive "nurturing" role is being laid out for women, well that is too will pass.

Sorry.  The underlined part is not true.  While they do give the "right" to aggress against an innocent even when not medically or psychologically necessary, they take away many of the rights inherent in being a sovereign human being, such as the right to keep what you earn and the right to defend yourself against rape.  

Since this isn't a political forum, that's all I will say about that.  You can PM me for details.  

[Stone holm]

It is.  It's the same type of perspective that shows that of 50 million or so abortions since Roe v Wade, less than 1% were to save the life of the mother.

 

I rarely CFR, but will on that one.

[BCSpace]

With the "Progressive" way society is going, women have been turned into mindless genitalia.  Look at the generally popular women's publications.  They're all about breasts, vaginas, orgasms, and the 10 ways you never knew about how to have sex etc.  Politically, it's all about the uterus; birth control and abortion.  The LDS Church treats women as far more than breast bearing uteri and puts them in their proper place, high above where society puts them and with men as co-creators and responsible for raising the next generation according to the standards of the Church.

 

Very interesting, incorrect, but very interesting.  Progressive politics tends to let the woman control her own body, rather have the government control her body.  I am not sure where LDS Doctrine places women, it seems to be morphing right now -- but I rather doubt that a lot of the Sisters would agree with you that the "place" of women is primarily in the nursery and the kitchen -- so to the extent that such an exclusive "nurturing" role is being laid out for women, well that is too will pass.

 

 

That's actually the lie being told by people who think they are "Progressive"; that somehow a woman's body is under assault and one's freedom to have casual sex is being threatened. 

 

These people have emptied their glass and are engaging in casual sex just to come up to the level of happiness a faithful LDS person has.  Same with drugs and alcohol.  They, like casual sex, are partaken of in order to be happy, if only for the moment.

 

So the best article to be written in the popular women's magazines entitled "The Best Sex Ever" would be a treatise on and encouraging the Law of Chastity.

[Stone holm]

That's actually the lie being told by people who think they are "Progressive"; that somehow a woman's body is under assault and one's freedom to have casual sex is being threatened. 

 

These people have emptied their glass and are engaging in casual sex just to come up to the level of happiness a faithful LDS person has.  Same with drugs and alcohol.  They, like casual sex, are partaken of in order to be happy, if only for the moment.

 

So the best article to be written in the popular women's magazines entitled "The Best Sex Ever" would be a treatise on and encouraging the Law of Chastity.

 

Yeah, whatever CFR on reasons for abortions still stands.

[BCSpace]

I rarely CFR, but will on that one.

 

Got a thread on it here:

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58652-only-0006-percent-of-abortions-are-to-save-the-life-of-the-mother/?hl=%2Babortions+%2Bmother

 

Yeah, whatever

 

I know you quite well.

[wenglund]

Just to put it in perspective, this isn't all that rare an "exception." Approximately 1 in 2000 births present with multiple sex organs and genitalis. By comparison, my particular birth defect (tracheoesophageal fistula) presents at a rate of 2.82 per 10,000 births. That means I'm special.

Worldwide, more people are born with this complication than are born into the LDS church.

 

Ah, yes, fun with statistics.

 

One of the ways to distort perspectives about rarity is to only provide comparative examples of things of greater rarity. For example, one may suggest that JKW's birth defect isn't all that rare (or special ) compared with Progressive Multifocal Leukoencephalopathy (PML), which occurs in 1 out of 200,000 people. Yet there are far more people worldwide who end up with this rare disease than there are non-believing LDS born with tracheoesophageal fistula posting to the MDDB discussion board.

 

However, the perspective becomes somewhat different if the comparisons are made in the other direction. For example, if a car is driven only one day in every 2000, as compared with how often the average car is driven per day, it would be quite reasonable to suggest that the car is driven rarely, if not extremely rarely.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited November 5, 2013 by wenglund

[jkwilliams]

Ah, yes, fun with statistics.

 

One of the ways to distort perspectives about rarity is to only provide comparative examples of things of greater rarity. For example, one may suggest that JKW's birth defect isn't all that rare (or special ) compared with Progressive Multifocal Leukoencephalopathy (PML), which occurs in 1 out of 200,000 people. Yet there are far more people worldwide who end up with this rare disease than there are non-believing LDS born with tracheoesophageal fistula posting to the MDDB discussion board.

 

However, the perspective becomes somewhat different if the comparisons are made in the other direction. For example, if a car is driven only one day in every 2000, as compared with how often the average car is driven per day, it be quite reasonable to suggest that the car is driven rarely, if not extremely rarely.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

My point, in case you missed it (and apparently you did), was that it might be "rare," but it happens often, even daily. To say that something doesn't count because it doesn't happen very often isn't a good argument. That would be like saying I shouldn't have had reparative surgery on my esophagus because my condition is rare and therefore not worth considering.

[BCSpace]

CFR on reasons for abortions still stands.

 

Didn't want you to miss it with the turn of a page...

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58652-only-0006-percent-of-abortions-are-to-save-the-life-of-the-mother/?hl=%2Babortions+%2Bmother

[Coreyb]

Maybe it all has to do with whether the kid was made with two x chromosomes or an x and a y and genitalia doesn't matter 

[BCSpace]

Maybe it all has to do with whether the kid was made with two x chromosomes or an x and a y and genitalia doesn't matter

 

Great point. But some will argue that perhaps a female spirit was placed in a male body.

[wenglund]

My point, in case you missed it (and apparently you did), was that it might be "rare," but it happens often, even daily. To say that something doesn't count because it doesn't happen very often isn't a good argument. That would be like saying I shouldn't have had reparative surgery on my esophagus because my condition is rare and therefore not worth considering.

 

That is an interesting point.

 

Perhaps I missed it because you made no implicit or explicit reference to "doesn't count" in your comparison.

 

Perhaps I also missed it also because I said nothing about "doesn't count" in the post to which you were presumably responding.

 

So, I have no idea whose argument you were supposedly demonstrating wasn't good by way of your interesting point.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited November 6, 2013 by wenglund

[jkwilliams]

That is an interesting point.

 

Perhaps I missed it because you made no implicit or explicit reference to "doesn't count" in your comparison.

 

Perhaps I also missed it also because I said nothing about "doesn't count" in the post to which you were presumably responding.

 

So, I have no idea whose argument you were supposedly demonstrating wasn't good by way of your interesting point.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

You're fun, Wade.

[Freedom]

It's not an assumption. Sister Okazaki said the General RS presidency was not consulted. Apparently she thought that her role should include providing counsel on the wording of the Proclamation because she said she would have made changes. And as for "socio-political roles," I'm pretty sure the RS was very involved in the church's efforts to kill the ERA in the late 1970s.

Just because they were not consulted does not mean women were not consulted. This document is the product of great study and prayer, and is considered scripture and official doctrine. Perhaps Sister Okazaki will be surprised that the RS pres was not consulted when the Book of Mormon was translated or when the D&C was produced.

[jkwilliams]

Just because they were not consulted does not mean women were not consulted. This document is the product of great study and prayer, and is considered scripture and official doctrine. Perhaps Sister Okazaki will be surprised that the RS pres was not consulted when the Book of Mormon was translated or when the D&C was produced.

 

Take that, Sister Okazaki.

[Nathair/|\]

Just because they were not consulted does not mean women were not consulted. This document is the product of great study and prayer, and is considered scripture and official doctrine. Perhaps Sister Okazaki will be surprised that the RS pres was not consulted when the Book of Mormon was translated or when the D&C was produced.

I am sure Heavenly Mother was consulted.  I doubt very much that HF does anything She wouldn't approve of.