Gender Is Eternal

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

But boys are boys and girls are girls even in a vacuum.

huh?

[thesometimesaint]

first, there are other churches that believe in the gifts of the spirit for today and practice them. Second. Those aren't the only gifts God gives us. 

 

There is but one that claims them all.

 

I never said that was a exclusive list. Only what Paul included in his partial list.

[danielwoods]

I am not sure this idea is really in the bible. I mean I get what you are saying. Christ does indeed save us. But not with out effort on our part. What do you mean when you say "Trust in Christ alone". That you learned of Christ in a vacuum?

What does effort do to save us?

Christ's work on the cross did it all, paid for all sin at once. One doesn't trust in their effort to save them, not even a little bit. All faith and hope and trust are in Christ alone for our salvation.

[thesometimesaint]

Strangely appropriate to this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFpe3Up9T_g

[thesometimesaint]

What does effort do to save us?

Christ's work on the cross did it all, paid for all sin at once. One doesn't trust in their effort to save them, not even a little bit. All faith and hope and trust are in Christ alone for our salvation.

 

Faith without works is dead.

 

No one here is arguing that. See the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats and/or the Parable of the Ten Virgins. What was the difference between the two groups?

What they did.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What does effort do to save us?

Christ's work on the cross did it all, paid for all sin at once. One doesn't trust in their effort to save them, not even a little bit. All faith and hope and trust are in Christ alone for our salvation.

So I don't even have to accpet Christ to be saved I don't have to do anything what so ever? That is exactly what you are saying when you say "What does effort do to save us". If I commit adaultry before Christ and once he saves me I can keep adaulterating and be saved. Oh are you a Calvinist? If so then of course you think God does it all Which concept is foriegn to the bible.

 

I still don't know what you mean but trust in Christ alone. Like I said that concept is no were in the bible. No were does it say that. It is impossible to trust in Christ alone as you did not learn about Christ in a vacuum. You have the bible and a church and a whole host of other things. There are several ways you learned of Christ. So logically it is impossible to trust in Christ alone.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Faith without works is dead.

 

No one here is arguing that. See the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats and/or the Parable of the Ten Virgins. What was the difference between the two groups?

What they did.

It might be the effort they put in to working out their own salvation?

[pogi]

daniel, some people erroneously assume that because we emphasize work alongside grace that we claim to "earn" or "deserve" our salvation.  We do not earn the grace of God any more than a petitioning beggar earns or deserves the grace offerings that he receives. 

 

We obey the commandments for no other reason than that he asked us to.  We demonstrate our love for him trough obedience, as he said "if ye love me, keep my commandments."  If the end and fulfillment of the law is love, obedience to His commandment is the evidence of that love.  

 

Obedience to the commandments are both the proof of our love and the schoolmaster of our love at the same time. 

[danielwoods]

What does effort do to save us?

Christ's work on the cross did it all, paid for all sin at once. One doesn't trust in their effort to save them, not even a little bit. All faith and hope and trust are in Christ alone for our salvation.

 

 

So I don't even have to accpet Christ to be saved I don't have to do anything what so ever? That is exactly what you are saying when you say "What does effort do to save us". If I commit adaultry before Christ and once he saves me I can keep adaulterating and be saved. Oh are you a Calvinist? If so then of course you think God does it all Which concept is foriegn to the bible.

 

I still don't know what you mean but trust in Christ alone. Like I said that concept is no were in the bible. No were does it say that. It is impossible to trust in Christ alone as you did not learn about Christ in a vacuum. You have the bible and a church and a whole host of other things. There are several ways you learned of Christ. So logically it is impossible to trust in Christ alone.

 

I'm not sure what isn't clear about what I stated above (quoted myself for easy reference). One doesn't trust in oneself for their salvation, not even a little bit. 

 

If you sit down in a chair, you put your complete trust in that chair alone, that it will hold you up. Your trust isn't in your sitting ability to hold you up. Nor any other chairs or anyone else to hold you up. You are trusting in that chair alone. 

 

When we put our trust in Christ alone for our salvation. That's it. Salvation is done because it's entrusted to him. We trust that he is able to save us. 

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

[pogi]

I agree with daniel on this one.  Our trust should be in the Savior alone, I do not trust in myself to earn salvation.  There is no good that we can do that will keep us from falling short.

 

If you sit down in a chair, you put your complete trust in that chair alone, that it will hold you up. Your trust isn't in your sitting ability to hold you up. Nor any other chairs or anyone else to hold you up. You are trusting in that chair alone. 

 

To demonstrate your faith in that chair, you have to actually perform the act of sitting in it.  Obedience is faith in action, just like sitting down in a chair.  In the case of faith, actions truly speak louder than words.

 

 

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

 

How do we "come to God" if not through obedience to the voice of the Sheppard who calls after us?  "If ye love me..."

Edited November 19, 2013 by pogi

[Stone holm]

Strangely appropriate to this discussion.

Finally had the time to watch this, it should be shown at General Conference and be a required part of Priesthood training. Might stop some of the silliness

[danielwoods]

I agree with daniel on this one.  Our trust should be in the Savior alone, I do not trust in myself to earn salvation.  There is no good that we can do that will keep us from falling short.

 

 

To demonstrate your faith in that chair, you have to actually perform the act of sitting in it.  Obedience is faith in action, just like sitting down in a chair.  In the case of faith, actions truly speak louder than words.

 

 

 

How do we "come to God" if not through obedience to the voice of the Sheppard who calls after us?  "If ye love me..."

Without faith it's impossible to please God. We agree.

It's not the faith that saves us though (the act of sitting or trusting the chair) it is the work that Christ did that saves us (holds us up like a chair). "Faith with works" demonstrates that we actually do trust Christ (actually are sitting in the chair) because true faith produces fruit.

[pogi]

Without faith it's impossible to please God. We agree.

It's not the faith that saves us though (the act of sitting or trusting the chair) it is the work that Christ did that saves us (holds us up like a chair). "Faith with works" demonstrates that we actually do trust Christ (actually are sitting in the chair) because true faith produces fruit.

 

Yes, it is not our sitting that holds us up, it is the chair.  In the same way, it is not our faith that saves us, but His grace.  Yet, the chair cannot hold us up unless we actively sit in the chair. 

[danielwoods]

Yes, it is not our sitting that holds us up, it is the chair.  In the same way, it is not our faith that saves us, but His grace.  Yet, the chair cannot hold us up unless we actively sit in the chair.

Nicely put.

[CMZ]

I find the phrase God loves us equally unappealing (same for when it is used elsewhere). It suggests there is an limited amount of love that God dispenses to each individual that we can measure and compare. I don't believe this remotely resembles reality. God loves his children in infinite ways.

And I will never say I love my children equally as if they were some cookie cutter identical individuals. They are unique as is my love for them and I find it inconceivable that I could ever find a way to measure that love or compare one experience to the other.

 

I don't know of anyone in the history of ever who has ever said or implied that loving your children equally means you see them as cookie cutter individuals.

[CMZ]

You don't think that God will reveal the mysteries of the Kingdom to you? That you absolutely have to learn everything from the Prophet? If that is the case, then you may have to wait until the hereafter to find them out because of late the Church has put everyone on a milk diet.

 

Yet they don't prevent you from learning whatever you can and want to. We don't learn by listening to General Conference then thinking, "Okay, those are the only doctrinal points I'm allowed to have in my head."

[Calm]

I don't know of anyone in the history of ever who has ever said or implied that loving your children equally means you see them as cookie cutter individuals.

Pardon me if I implied that this is the way others see it when they say it, I did not mean that...only that is what it means to me and so I won't say it.  I think in terms of math when I hear "equal" and measurement and while I am a big fan of both, I don't see math as a good way to deal with love or that love should even be attempted to be measured because love should be limitless.  For me saying "love equally" means one is paying close enough attention to be able to measure it or at least to compare, it means controlling the amount of love so that it all comes out balanced....and I do mean "for me", not saying anyone else should or does look at love and life in this manner.

 

Maybe it is a bit of an obsession for me because my mom always tried to balance things so that when we had special days like b-days, no one in the family felt left out or neglected...but that also meant that it wasn't really a special day for that one kid and we couldn't just revel in the special attention for ourselves but have to make sure that everyone else was having a good time, still can't just enjoy a moment for myself, have to look around and make sure no one else is missing out even if no one else is there as childhood habits are some of the hardest to break...took away a lot of the fun for me and I think some of my siblings. I think every child needs to be secure in the emotional knowledge that they are the most important kid in the world to their parents even if intellectually they know other things and other people come first sometimes.

 

One thing I've noticed is that we all tend to focus on stuff our parents did and swear we will do the opposite, but we go just as overboard on it as they did.  My mom did her thing because her mom tended to show favouritism.

Edited November 26, 2013 by calmoriah

[Ahab]

Pardon me if I implied that this is the way others see it when they say it, I did not mean that...only that is what it means to me and so I won't say it.  I think in terms of math when I hear "equal" and measurement and while I am a big fan of both, I don't see math as a good way to deal with love or that love should even be attempted to be measured because love should be limitless.  For me saying "love equally" means one is paying close enough attention to be able to measure it or at least to compare, it means controlling the amount of love so that it all comes out balanced....and I do mean "for me", not saying anyone else should or does look at love and life in this manner.

 

Maybe it is a bit of an obsession for me because my mom always tried to balance things so that when we had special days like b-days, no one in the family felt left out or neglected...but that also meant that it wasn't really a special day for that one kid and we couldn't just revel in the special attention for ourselves but have to make sure that everyone else was having a good time, still can't just enjoy a moment for myself, have to look around and make sure no one else is missing out even if no one else is there as childhood habits are some of the hardest to break...took away a lot of the fun for me and I think some of my siblings. I think every child needs to be secure in the emotional knowledge that they are the most important kid in the world to their parents even if intellectually they know other things and other people come first sometimes.

 

One thing I've noticed is that we all tend to focus on stuff our parents did and swear we will do the opposite, but we go just as overboard on it as they did.  My mom did her thing because her mom tended to show favouritism.

When I say I "love equally" when I'm talking about things that I love I'm talking about having an equal amount of love for all of the things that I love.

 

Like when I say I love green grass as equally as I love a blue sky.  Or like when I say I love one child as equally as I love another.

 

All of the things I love are my favorite things with nothing I love being something I love less than something else that I love.  

 

And when I'm talking about love I'm talking about things that I highly favor, rather than things I don't favor at all.

 

How can someone love one child more than they love another child, or love one color more than they love another color they love?  I don't see how that could be true, if they truly love what they are claiming to love, and when people say that they do I think it's a fault of our imperfect language.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Ahab

[mfbukowski]

 

What is supportable from the Bible? 

 

Just about anything as the plethora of contradictory religions who support it will testify!

 

Do you realize that the Jews accept the Bible?  

 

Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Evangelicals, the Branch Davidians and new agers all support the Bible?

 

Do you realize that Muslims support the Bible as well as the Koran?

 

What is this supposed to prove?

 

And you have never told me why you accept the Bible as scripture above the Zoroastrian Avesta, which is older and teaches about the same thing.  You are still skipping over the same issues and ignoring the same arguments you always have skipped and ignored.

 

Sigh. 

[mfbukowski]

daniel, thanks for the dialogue and I wish you the best, but I think I am burned out on this topic.  

We seem to have a theme developing here.... 

[mfbukowski]

Thanks all the best to you as well. There is no confusion on the fundamentals among those who are believers (concerning the fundamentals of salvation), no modern prophet needed there. The Spirit already provided the necessary information.

Uh huh.

 

Just look at my above list of "believers"- Jews, Muslims, Christians and New Agers.

 

Nope.  No confusion on the fundamentals at all.

 

More revelation?  Who needs it!?!?!

Edited November 27, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

http://vimeo.com/82104871

 

C/P:

 

Eri Hayward was born and raised in Utah County, comes from a conservative Mormon background, was raised in the LDS Church and even went to Mormon private school – but something wasn’t adding up. Eri was born a boy and it was a slow, painful journey for her to recognize she is transgender. Our friends at OHO Media met with Eri and her close-knit, supportive family this summer, just before she flew to Thailand for sexual reassignment surgery. Created in partnership with VideoWest (videowest.kuer.org).

 

 

 

Listening right now, too bad Ellen doesn't converse here much or anymore.  I hope she gets her wish to one day take her endowments out at the temple.  Possibly videos like this may help, or not. 

[wenglund]

http://vimeo.com/82104871

 

C/P:

 

Eri Hayward was born and raised in Utah County, comes from a conservative Mormon background, was raised in the LDS Church and even went to Mormon private school – but something wasn’t adding up. Eri was born a boy and it was a slow, painful journey for her to recognize she is transgender. Our friends at OHO Media met with Eri and her close-knit, supportive family this summer, just before she flew to Thailand for sexual reassignment surgery. Created in partnership with VideoWest (videowest.kuer.org).

 

 

 

Listening right now, too bad Ellen doesn't converse here much or anymore.  I hope she gets her wish to one day take her endowments out at the temple.  Possibly videos like this may help, or not. 

 

I don't know that God is inclined to subordinate his infinite wisdom in deference to human appeals to emotion.

 

Be that as it may, to me the plan of salvation doesn't consist of taking a human scalpel to change us externally into the image we as a human may have of ourselves, but rather to progress us internally to conform us into the likeness of Christ that God has in mind.

 

Too often these day we mistakenly conflate the gospel with the confounded whims of popular world culture, not realizing that no man can serve two masters.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Stone holm]

I don't know that God is inclined to subordinate his infinite wisdom in deference to human appeals to emotion.

 

Be that as it may, to me the plan of salvation doesn't consist of taking a human scalpel to change us externally into the image we as a human may have of ourselves, but rather to progress us internally to conform us into the likeness of Christ that God has in mind.

 

Too often these day we mistakenly conflate the gospel with the confounded whims of popular world culture, not realizing that no man can serve two masters.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Despite the fact that I have found it painfully difficult to talk to transgender persons and get the right nomenclature 100% of the time, and I question the wisdom of taking a scalpel to an adult to change from one sex to another.  I don't think that conflating the gospel with popular world culture is the problem here, nor do I think that those who go down that path are serving Satan.  We should always hesitate before claiming that God is on our side.  Have watched too many Civil War documentaries to have the same certitude on issues that many express on this board.

[Daniel2]

I don't know that God is inclined to subordinate his infinite wisdom in deference to human appeals to emotion.

Be that as it may, to me the plan of salvation doesn't consist of taking a human scalpel to change us externally into the image we as a human may have of ourselves, but rather to progress us internally to conform us into the likeness of Christ that God has in mind.

Too often these day we mistakenly conflate the gospel with the confounded whims of popular world culture, not realizing that no man can serve two masters.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Has the LDS church officially come out as condemning plastic surgery and... uh... body augmentation?

Does it still condemn tatoos?

Does it condemn Lap-Band operations?

Liposuction?

Hair transplants?

Organ donations?

Perms?

Toenail clipping?

Circumcision?

Are hair follicles, mammary-gland-size, cellular fat quantities, cuticles, organs, skin coloration, and foreskin all eternal...?

If Christ cut something of his off during mortality, should we all follow suit in a quest to "be like him"...?

Is it necessary to possess all of the same body parts that Christ had/has to appear "in his likeness"?

The line of questioning may offend some, but it isn't meant to be intentionally inflammatory--just thought-provoking. I imagine most of us likely unintentionally offend transgendered individuals all the time.

Daniel

Edited April 1, 2014 by Daniel2