Gender Is Eternal

[danielwoods]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Are you saying that one cannot live by the spirit and the commandments at the same time?  Do you not subscribe to the "do this and that, but don't do this or that's" of the Bible?  One cannot live in the spirit while in opposition to God's command at the same time. 

 

You make it seem like our leaders are oppressive dictators standing in unrighteous dominion.  We have an unpaid clergy for the most part, those who are in positions of authority are called to these positions.  they are lay members called to positions of service. "...but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)

 Since I don't really interact with your leaders, I'm really not commenting on them. I'm simply stating what I observe. 

 

Do I subscribe to the "Do this and that, but don't  do this or that..." of the Bible? Pretty much no. It's not the doing the works that changes our hearts but submission of our hearts to him, that changes us. And that change is what causes us to want or will to do his commands. The difference is striking. I have been in churches that emphasize the "following the commands" model and living among the LDS reminds me of that experience. 

 

 

Neither does it exclude it.  Please do tell, who holds this authority to create scripture on earth today?

 

 

This is still unclear to me.  Are you saying the church is a non-denominational, non-organizational, office-less, structure-less, conglomeration of believers who put their faith in Christ alone?

Who holds the authority to create scripture today? Every believer who is willing like Peter was. 

 

Non-demoninational - yes

Non-organizational - no

Office-less - no

Structure-less - no (although I see the world wide structure of the LDS and Catholic as too much control by a small group of men). 

Conglomeration of believers - yes

[pogi]

 Since I don't really interact with your leaders, I'm really not commenting on them. I'm simply stating what I observe. 

 

Do I subscribe to the "Do this and that, but don't  do this or that..." of the Bible? Pretty much no. It's not the doing the works that changes our hearts but submission of our hearts to him, that changes us. And that change is what causes us to want or will to do his commands. The difference is striking. I have been in churches that emphasize the "following the commands" model and living among the LDS reminds me of that experience. 

 

I don't really see how we disagree in that, yes, it is the submission of our hearts and will to God that changes us, and not the outward works.  However, often the outward works of service can soften our hearts and influence our will to submit ourselves further to the will of God.  If we are in submission to God's will, then we are in submission to His command.  If we are not living His commandments, then we are obviously not in submission to Him, but are following after our own will.  I guess where we disagree is that I don't view "the greatest commandment" as a suggestion.

 

 

 Who holds the authority to create scripture today? Every believer who is willing like Peter was. 

 

I see, so you recognize the Doctrine and Covenants of the LDS as scripture like we do.

Edited November 17, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

Non-demoninational - yes

Non-organizational - no

Office-less - no

Structure-less - no (although I see the world wide structure of the LDS and Catholic as too much control by a small group of men). 

Conglomeration of believers - yes

 

Does that mean that I am a member because I put my faith in Christ alone for my salvation?  Does this Church have a website?

 

Too much control?  Did Peter have too much control?  Abraham?  Moses?  It is not about control, it is about guidance.  Not daily life guidance that we receive directly from God, but doctrinal guidance.  Could you imagine giving the ability to decide and even write doctrine to all members of any church?  That would be chaos and contradiction, and mass confusion.  No body would agree, no, there needs to be an authority, a "mouthpiece" for God with the keys necessary.  Not to direct our individual lives, but to direct the church as a whole. 

Edited November 17, 2013 by pogi

[thesometimesaint]

danielwoods.

 

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

[danielwoods]

I don't really see how we disagree in that, yes, it is the submission of our hearts and will to God that changes us, and not the outward works.  However, often the outward works of service can soften our hearts and influence our will to submit ourselves further to the will of God.  If we are in submission to God's will, then we are in submission to His command.  If we are not living His commandments, then we are obviously not in submission to Him, but are following after our own will.  I guess where we disagree is that I don't view "the greatest commandment" as a suggestion.

 

 

 

I see, so you recognize the Doctrine and Covenants of the LDS as scripture like we do.

 

No I don't think that D&C are scripture. 

 

As far as following commands. "love is the fulfillment of the law."

 

 

 

 

Does that mean that I am a member because I put my faith in Christ alone for my salvation?  Does this Church have a website?

 

Too much control?  Did Peter have too much control?  Abraham?  Moses?  It is not about control, it is about guidance.  Not daily life guidance that we receive directly from God, but doctrinal guidance.  Could you imagine giving the ability to decide and even write doctrine to all members of any church?  That would be chaos and contradiction, and mass confusion.  No body would agree, no, there needs to be an authority, a "mouthpiece" for God with the keys necessary.  Not to direct our individual lives, but to direct the church as a whole.

 

If you trust in Christ alone, then sure you are a member. No website. 

 

We disagree that there would be chaos and confusion. There is not because Christ is at the head. 

 

 

danielwoods.

 

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

And we have their writings. Further, now God dwells inside of every believer. So every believer has the same spirit that the prophets had.

[thesometimesaint]

 

No I don't think that D&C are scripture. 

 

As far as following commands. "love is the fulfillment of the law."

 

 If you trust in Christ alone, then sure you are a member. No website. 

 

We disagree that there would be chaos and confusion. There is not because Christ is at the head. 

 

 And we have their writings. Further, now God dwells inside of every believer. So every believer has the same spirit that the prophets had.

 

Why not? They are just as validly Scripture as anything in the Bible.

 

Love is a requirement of Christianity. With out good works in and of itself it is dead being alone.

 

Christians do not trust in Christ alone. They trust in the testimonies of the Prophets, and Apostles vouchsafed by the Holy Ghost. The Restored Gospel of Jesus the Christ is the Good News that Prophets and Apostles once again speak to and for God.

 

The definition of anarchy/chaos is without government. The Church is the government of God. There is no such thing as the Priesthood/Government of all believers. With some 40,000 different Christian religions in just the US alone. It is hard(impossible) to see that as a unity of faith as described in the NT.

 

We have SOME of their writings. The OT clearly states that God tells his servants the Prophets what he is going to do. The NT clearly has Gods' servants the Prophets to tell what he is going to do.

[danielwoods]

Why not? They are just as validly Scripture as anything in the Bible.

 

Love is a requirement of Christianity. With out good works in and of itself it is dead being alone.

 

Christians do not trust in Christ alone. They trust in the testimonies of the Prophets, and Apostles vouchsafed by the Holy Ghost. The Restored Gospel of Jesus the Christ is the Good News that Prophets and Apostles once again speak to and for God.

 

The definition of anarchy/chaos is without government. The Church is the government of God. There is no such thing as the Priesthood/Government of all believers. With some 40,000 different Christian religions in just the US alone. It is hard(impossible) to see that as a unity of faith as described in the NT.

 

We have SOME of their writings. The OT clearly states that God tells his servants the Prophets what he is going to do. The NT clearly has Gods' servants the Prophets to tell what he is going to do.

 

The D&C are just as valid as anything in the Bible. I disagree, that's my view, my opinion, you have a different one, I'm ok with that. 

 

Without good works faith is dead being alone, not love. 

 

Christians trust in Christ alone for their salvation. 

 

Peter states that we all are apart of the priesthood if we are believers. Jesus stated it was he who would build his church, not anyone else. 

 

The NT states that we all have the spirit, not just the prophets. 

[thesometimesaint]

The D&C are just as valid as anything in the Bible. I disagree, that's my view, my opinion, you have a different one, I'm ok with that. 

 

Without good works faith is dead being alone, not love. 

 

Christians trust in Christ alone for their salvation. 

 

Peter states that we all are apart of the priesthood if we are believers. Jesus stated it was he who would build his church, not anyone else. 

 

The NT states that we all have the spirit, not just the prophets. 

 

Of course you are entitled to any opinion you want. But we are discussing what is supportable by the Bible. You position is not supportable from the Bible.

 

Faith, like love is a feeling. Good to have, but insufficient.

 

Peter doesn't state that. Jesus doesn't state that Peter was whom he would build his Church upon. Peter himself denied the Christ three times in one night. Christ build his Church upon the rock of Revelation. Not on the rock of Peter.

 

Yes we all have the Spirit. We don't all have the authority to declare doctrine for Christs Church.

[pogi]

 

No I don't think that D&C are scripture. 

 

As far as following commands. "love is the fulfillment of the law."

 

If you trust in Christ alone, then sure you are a member. No website. 

 

We disagree that there would be chaos and confusion. There is not because Christ is at the head. 

 

And we have their writings. Further, now God dwells inside of every believer. So every believer has the same spirit that the prophets had.

 

See, now I am confused.  I thought that every willing believer could write binding scripture like Paul.  Why doesn't the D&C count?  Do you see the problem, confusion, and contradiction that your approach creates? 

 

Yes, I trust in Christ alone for my salvation.  He is the way, the truth and the life, so I guess I am a member.  You mentioned that there is a structure, organization, and offices.  Who ordains to office?   Where did they get the authority to ordain?  What is the organization?  When was the organization going to tell me that I am a member?

 

How could you disagree that there would be confusion?  I am terribly confused!  We can't agree on any doctrine and yet we are both members of this so called church, which I wasn't even aware that I was member of until now.  Nobody even  asked if I wanted to be a member.  Who is the authority that bound me into this covenant?  Who is the authority to clear up this mess between us like Peter or Paul who wrote letters to clear up false doctrines? Surely, we cannot both be right.  Even in the early church, the members (who had the same spirit) disagreed on doctrinal points, they required an authority with keys to guide them to the will and doctrine of Christ.  Why do you believe it is different today? 

 

Even if every believer had the same spirit, they do not hold the same gifts of the spirit.  Only a select few have the gift of prophecy, not all have the spirit of discernment, not all have the gift of knowledge, etc. and even fewer hold the keys to make those prophecies binding on the church as a whole.  

 

You are trying to equate keys with spirit.  Yet Peter was given the keys and the Holy Ghost at different times, meaning that they are different things. 

Edited November 18, 2013 by pogi

[danielwoods]

Of course you are entitled to any opinion you want. But we are discussing what is supportable by the Bible. You position is not supportable from the Bible.

 

Faith, like love is a feeling. Good to have, but insufficient.

 

Peter doesn't state that. Jesus doesn't state that Peter was whom he would build his Church upon. Peter himself denied the Christ three times in one night. Christ build his Church upon the rock of Revelation. Not on the rock of Peter.

 

Yes we all have the Spirit. We don't all have the authority to declare doctrine for Christs Church.

 

What is supportable from the Bible? 

 

Does Love fulfill the law?

Romans 13:10 "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

Are all believers apart of the priesthood?

1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light."

Who will build the Church?

Even you restated what I said, "Christ build his Church..."

Indeed, if we needed to declare doctrine for Christ's Church we could. Why? Because we have his spirit and he works through us, building his church.

 

 

See, now I am confused.  I thought that every willing believer could write binding scripture like Paul.  Why doesn't the D&C count?  Do you see the problem, confusion, and contradiction that your approach creates? 

 

Yes, I trust in Christ alone for my salvation.  He is the way, the truth and the life, so I guess I am a member.  You mentioned that there is a structure, organization, and offices.  Who ordains to office?   Where did they get the authority to ordain?  What is the organization?  When was the organization going to tell me that I am a member?

 

How could you disagree that there would be confusion?  I am terribly confused!  We can't agree on any doctrine and yet we are both members of this so called church, which I wasn't even aware that I was member of until now.  Nobody even  asked if I wanted to be a member.  Who is the authority that bound me into this covenant?  Who is the authority to clear up this mess between us like Peter or Paul who wrote letters to clear up false doctrines? Surely, we cannot both be right.  Even in the early church, the members (who had the same spirit) disagreed on doctrinal points, they required an authority with keys to guide them to the will and doctrine of Christ.  Why do you believe it is different today? 

 

Even if every believer had the same spirit, they do not hold the same gifts of the spirit.  Only a select few have the gift of prophecy, not all have the spirit of discernment, not all have the gift of knowledge, etc. and even fewer hold the keys to make those prophecies binding on the church as a whole.  

 

You are trying to equate keys with spirit.  Yet Peter was given the keys and the Holy Ghost at different times, meaning that they are different things.

Why doesn't the D&C count as scripture? My opinion? Not sure I want to get into it. Simply put, it appears to me to disagree with the biblical text on some points, and on those points it doesn't, it's not needed.

"My approach" creates no more confusion or contradiction than the LDS or the Catholic approach. Just look at the threads on this site that discuss or debate what is really doctrine or not? As long as there are people involved, there will be some level of confusion and contradiction. ;-)

All authority comes from Christ alone. Organization is his. As far as the manifestation of his organization on Earth, there are many who ordain, train, and hold offices.

The spirit that gives us life and transforms us also gives us the gifts that the church needs. If we needed scripture, it would be written, if it needed guidance that would be provided as well. The keys are direct access to the Kingdom, the spirit provides that.

[pogi]

With a prophet holding the keys on the earth, there is NO confusion among believers as to how and by what authority one is adopted and bound into the family of Abraham and the new covenant of the Savior.  There is no confusion as to the gate and the way one should enter.  There is no confusion as to the doctrines of salvation.  You know, the REALLY important things we are agreed.  I don't feel the same with you, and that concerns me if you think we could both be right by the same spirit.  

 

daniel, thanks for the dialogue and I wish you the best, but I think I am burned out on this topic.  

Edited November 18, 2013 by pogi

[Stone holm]

With a prophet holding the keys on the earth, there is NO confusion among believers as to how and by what authority one is adopted and bound into the family of Abraham and the new covenant of the Savior.  There is no confusion as to the gate and the way one should enter.  There is no confusion as to the doctrines of salvation.  You know, the REALLY important things we are agreed.  I don't feel the same with you, and that concerns me if you think we could both be right by the same spirit.  

 

daniel, thanks for the dialogue and I wish you the best, but I think I am burned out on this topic.  

 

Don't know about the adoption, most people are just declared to be of the lineage of such and such tribe....a very few are adopted.

[pogi]

Don't know about the adoption, most people are just declared to be of the lineage of such and such tribe....a very few are adopted.

 

My point is simply that one must be either a direct descendant of Abraham or adopted to the family of Abraham by baptism.  Wether a direct descendent or adopted, there is only one way to enter the covenant and "put on Christ"- baptism.  

 

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ…And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal 3:27,29).

 

I'm not sure how you can support that "very few" are adopted since most blessings are private.  I was adopted, as were most people who have shared with me. 

[Stone holm]

My point is simply that one must be either a direct descendant of Abraham or adopted to the family of Abraham by baptism.  Wether a direct descendent or adopted, there is only one way to enter the covenant and "put on Christ"- baptism.  

 

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ…And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal 3:27,29).

 

I'm not sure how you can support that "very few" are adopted since most blessings are private.  I was adopted, as were most people who have shared with me. 

Well that is interesting, I think you are the first I have met whose Patriarchal blessing used the word adopted?

[teddyaware]

Of course you are entitled to any opinion you want. But we are discussing what is supportable by the Bible. You position is not supportable from the Bible.

 

Faith, like love is a feeling. Good to have, but insufficient.

 

Peter doesn't state that. Jesus doesn't state that Peter was whom he would build his Church upon. Peter himself denied the Christ three times in one night. Christ build his Church upon the rock of Revelation. Not on the rock of Peter.

 

Yes we all have the Spirit. We don't all have the authority to declare doctrine for Christs Church.

 

In reality, the Church of Christ is not built upon the abstract principle of revelation alone, but is actually built upon living foundation stones called Apostles and Prophets. There can be no revelation without divinely authorized living revelators. This principle of the Church being built, as it were, upon the foundation stones of living revelators is amply taught and testified to in the scriptures. The following verse clearly teaches this principle:  

 

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Ephesians 2)

 

So then, the Church of Christ is built upon the foundation of living Apostles and Prophets, with the foremost Apostle and Prophet, Jesus Christ Himself, placed as the first living stone in the foundation of the Church. With Christ now set securely at the foundation as the living chief cornerstone, there then follow His chosen Apostles and Prophets who are also set in the foundation of the Church as additional living stones. So Paul here teaches us that revelation is just an inactive abstract principle without living revelators at the foundation of the Church. 

Edited November 19, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

With a prophet holding the keys on the earth, there is NO confusion among believers as to how and by what authority one is adopted and bound into the family of Abraham and the new covenant of the Savior.  There is no confusion as to the gate and the way one should enter.  There is no confusion as to the doctrines of salvation.  You know, the REALLY important things we are agreed.  I don't feel the same with you, and that concerns me if you think we could both be right by the same spirit.  

 

daniel, thanks for the dialogue and I wish you the best, but I think I am burned out on this topic.

Thanks all the best to you as well. There is no confusion on the fundamentals among those who are believers (concerning the fundamentals of salvation), no modern prophet needed there. The Spirit already provided the necessary information.

Edited November 19, 2013 by danielwoods

[thesometimesaint]

In reality, the Church of Christ is not built upon the abstract principle of revelation alone, but is actually built upon living foundation stones called Apostles and Prophets. There can be no revelation without divinely authorized living revelators. This principle of the Church being built, as it were, upon the foundation stones of living revelators is amply taught and testified to in the scriptures. The following verse clearly teaches this principle:  

 

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Ephesians 2)

 

So then, the Church of Christ is built upon the foundation of living Apostles and Prophets, with the foremost Apostle and Prophet, Jesus Christ Himself, placed as the first living stone in the foundation of the Church. With Christ now set securely at the foundation as the living chief cornerstone, there then follows His chosen Apostles and Prophets who are also set in the foundation of the Church as additional living stones. So Paul here teaches us that revelation is just an inactive abstract principle without living revelators at the foundation of the Church 

 

I didn't say alone. However without revelation from God there is no Church. That is not abstract idea. It is not just stories. It is in our lives and actions that maintain and preserve the Church and its doctrines, by revelations from God.

 

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar Jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven".

Matthew 16:17

[thesometimesaint]

Thanks all the best to you as well. There is no confusion on the fundamentals among those who are believers (concerning the fundamentals of salvation), no modern prophet needed there. The Spirit already provided the necessary information.

 

When did Christ do away with living Apostles and Prophets? I must have missed that in my Bible. Have we all come to a unity of the faith. I certainly don't see it with over 40,000 different Christian religions in the US alone.

 

Where is it in the Bible where we only need the Spirit in establishing and maintaining the Church?

[teddyaware]

I didn't say alone. However without revelation from God there is no Church. That is not abstract idea. It is not just stories. It is in our lives and actions that maintain and preserve the Church and its doctrines, by revelations from God.

 

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar Jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven".

Matthew 16:17

 

We are in agreement. My point is the scriptures teach us living revelators are at the foundation of the Church and not just the concept of revelation. Revelation remains just an idea until someone comes along who actually receives revelation.

Edited November 19, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

When did Christ do away with living Apostles and Prophets? I must have missed that in my Bible. Have we all come to a unity of the faith. I certainly don't see it with over 40,000 different Christian religions in the US alone.

 

Where is it in the Bible where we only need the Spirit in establishing and maintaining the Church?

 

The gifts of the Spirit are what are provided for building up the saints. The Spirit provides these gifts to the church as needed. 

[thesometimesaint]

With over 40,000 different Christian religions(churches) there is no unity of the faith. A house divided against itself can not stand.

 

There are nine gifts of the Spirit mentioned by Paul in I Corinthians chapter twelve:

1) Word of Wisdom
2) Word of Knowledge
3) Faith
4) Gifts of Healing
5) Working of Miracles
6) Prophecy
7) Discerning of Spirits

8. Divers (or different) kinds of Tongues
9) Interpretation of (different) Tongues

No church but one claims all these.

Edited November 19, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[danielwoods]

 

With over 40,000 different Christian religions(churches) there is no unity of the faith. A house divided against itself can not stand.

 

There are nine gifts of the Spirit mentioned by Paul in I Corinthians chapter twelve:

1) Word of Wisdom

2) Word of Knowledge

3) Faith

4) Gifts of Healing

5) Working of Miracles

6) Prophecy

7) Discerning of Spirits

8. Divers (or different) kinds of Tongues

9) Interpretation of (different) Tongues

No church but one claims all these.

 

 

first, there are other churches that believe in the gifts of the spirit for today and practice them. Second. Those aren't the only gifts God gives us. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

Christians trust in Christ alone for their salvation. 

 

 

I am not sure this idea is really in the bible. I mean I get what you are saying. Christ does indeed save us. But not with out effort on our part. What do you mean when you say "Trust in Christ alone". That you learned of Christ in a vacuum?

[Stone holm]

I am not sure this idea is really in the bible. I mean I get what you are saying. Christ does indeed save us. But not with out effort on our part. What do you mean when you say "Trust in Christ alone". That you learned of Christ in a vacuum?

 

 

But boys are boys and girls are girls even in a vacuum.

[thesometimesaint]

But boys are boys and girls are girls even in a vacuum.

 

Neither one lives very long in a vacuum.