california boy Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 I don't know if this will be helpful, but as one of the few former members of the church that is gay on this discussion board, I can give you my perspective and how I made my choice to leave the church. 1. The church requiring me to be celibate for the rest of my life, while difficult, was something that I could agree to do if asked to by God. As has been pointed out, many members are asked to be celibate throughout their lives and will be rewarded in the next for their faithfulness. 2, Never touching, kissing, hugging or any other physical contact or any hope of ever having that kind of relationship with another male member was a way more difficult commandment to keep than being celibate. I thought long and hard about this commandment given to me by the church. Maybe I could do it. It would be difficult, but I really love the church and God. 3. Being alone for the rest of my life without even the ability to have dinner, or go to a movie or socialize with another gay person was even more difficult. No matter what others may think, it takes someone who is gay and has lived their life dealing with that issue, that I really wanted to have a relationship with. Even with the understanding that the first two commandments would still have to be observed. In reality, I realistically think I would be unable to live this way. My thoughts that I would have to leave the church in the end, was probably the real results of being gay. Even if I really wanted and hoped that I could do this, I just didn't think I could do it. 4. Eternal reward can be a powerful motivator. The idea of sacrificing so much while here on earth in hopes of an eternity of happiness was essential for any of this to work. But the church does not offer anything for gay children of God. If the church could just say that some day, if I was faithful to all that God has asked of me while I was on this earth, then I could live for eternity with a man in a relationship that I could not possibly imagine, then maybe I could be strong enough to fulfill the requirements that the church has put forth. (I say church at this point, because I truly do not believe that the church leaders has any idea what God has planned for his gay children. God simply has not revealed a single thing about this, So at this point, it is only the brethren guessing that the plan of salvation is the same for straight children as gay children.) In the end, number 4 was the deal breaker. It is the realization that there was no promise of anything in the eternities even for those faithful members that did what the church asked of them in this life. Some members put forth the idea that I could magically become straight and I would be able to be with a woman for eternity. I can understand how that idea would be appealing to someone who is straight, it really seems more like hell to someone who is gay. Just as in this life, I would rather be single for eternity than be married to a woman for eternity. If I could be married for a woman for eternity, then wouldn't I just start being married to one while here on earth? Sorry doesn't work here on earth, and isn't going to work in the next.
Rob Osborn Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 When did you choose to be straight?Uh...I have liked girls for as long as I can remember. In mortality there never was a choice to choose, I was born with attraction to the opposite sex. Isnt that natural?
jkwilliams Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Uh...I have liked girls for as long as I can remember. In mortality there never was a choice to choose, I was born with attraction to the opposite sex. Isnt that natural? So, you didn't choose your orientation, but gays do?
Storm Rider Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I don't know if this will be helpful, but as one of the few former members of the church that is gay on this discussion board, I can give you my perspective and how I made my choice to leave the church. 1. The church requiring me to be celibate for the rest of my life, while difficult, was something that I could agree to do if asked to by God. As has been pointed out, many members are asked to be celibate throughout their lives and will be rewarded in the next for their faithfulness. 2, Never touching, kissing, hugging or any other physical contact or any hope of ever having that kind of relationship with another male member was a way more difficult commandment to keep than being celibate. I thought long and hard about this commandment given to me by the church. Maybe I could do it. It would be difficult, but I really love the church and God. 3. Being alone for the rest of my life without even the ability to have dinner, or go to a movie or socialize with another gay person was even more difficult. No matter what others may think, it takes someone who is gay and has lived their life dealing with that issue, that I really wanted to have a relationship with. Even with the understanding that the first two commandments would still have to be observed. In reality, I realistically think I would be unable to live this way. My thoughts that I would have to leave the church in the end, was probably the real results of being gay. Even if I really wanted and hoped that I could do this, I just didn't think I could do it. 4. Eternal reward can be a powerful motivator. The idea of sacrificing so much while here on earth in hopes of an eternity of happiness was essential for any of this to work. But the church does not offer anything for gay children of God. If the church could just say that some day, if I was faithful to all that God has asked of me while I was on this earth, then I could live for eternity with a man in a relationship that I could not possibly imagine, then maybe I could be strong enough to fulfill the requirements that the church has put forth. (I say church at this point, because I truly do not believe that the church leaders has any idea what God has planned for his gay children. God simply has not revealed a single thing about this, So at this point, it is only the brethren guessing that the plan of salvation is the same for straight children as gay children.) In the end, number 4 was the deal breaker. It is the realization that there was no promise of anything in the eternities even for those faithful members that did what the church asked of them in this life. Some members put forth the idea that I could magically become straight and I would be able to be with a woman for eternity. I can understand how that idea would be appealing to someone who is straight, it really seems more like hell to someone who is gay. Just as in this life, I would rather be single for eternity than be married to a woman for eternity. If I could be married for a woman for eternity, then wouldn't I just start being married to one while here on earth? Sorry doesn't work here on earth, and isn't going to work in the next. Your list seems to exaggerate what is really required of the membership. The Church teaches us to be virtuous and chaste before marriage in the temple. That has nothing to do with touching, kissing, hugging, etc. Do you think you can tough anther human and remain virtuous? Of course; there is not need for exaggeration; it is just as deceitful for you as it is for others holding an alternative perspective. Number 3 is also an exaggeration, but even more so. Cannot go to a movie with a person of the same sex or dinner? CFR Number 4 - I think this is where there is an opportunity for real discussion. We have no knowledge if a gay person now is a gay person then. One could postulate gay people are just never in the celestial kingdom. I think that gay people are created just the way they are by our Father and still not know what happens in the next life for them. We can read scripture and strive to understand the will of God for each of us; strive to follow his will, his teachings, and his commandments; we know we will fail, fall down, and sin. The challenge is to get back up, be repentant, and keep trying. It is a foundational understanding of the Kingdom of God that its very meaning or raison d'etre is to invite all unto Christ; to come just as they are to him and become new by being washed in his blood. Christ desires each of us to follow him. Can anyone be a member and have questions unanswered about what is the next life? It is my personal belief that we don't really know what the Celestial Kingdom is or exactly what anyone of us will do or be. We have some ideas, but I think most fall far short of the future reality. What is unquestionable is that the Celestial Kingdom is dwelling in the presence of the Godhead and being together with other sons and daughters of God sealed in a chain of creation from beginning to end. You have chosen to break from that chain of sealing, but I don't think you are outside of the family of God. There are many paths; but I remain committed that the path to our Father is found within the Church of Jesus Christ. I also believe that our Father still beckons to you, the Holy Spirit still touches you. The question for you, as for each of us, is will you respond to his call.
Rob Osborn Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 So, you didn't choose your orientation, but gays do? For the most part, yes, gays choose that lifestyle based on circumstances, events, etc. I don't buy into the whole "born that way" attitude. A hundred years ago there were very few gay people. Nowdays there are increasingly more and more gay people- they are not born that way, they choose to be that way. We keep treating this issue as if its a natural thing- people just born that way. I dont buy it.
DBMormon Posted October 31, 2013 Author Posted October 31, 2013 Ask Sister Sheri Dew.As far as I know She hasn't chosen that but rather has wanted a marriage but has not found the right person.
halconero Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) For the most part, yes, gays choose that lifestyle based on circumstances, events, etc. I don't buy into the whole "born that way" attitude. A hundred years ago there were very few gay people. Nowdays there are increasingly more and more gay people- they are not born that way, they choose to be that way.We keep treating this issue as if its a natural thing- people just born that way. I dont buy it. Wait. Maybe this is just semantics...are you saying that people choose who they are attracted to? Or their lifestyle? I can agree the latter, but not the former. Also, I can provide you with more than a few examples of the existence of gay people throughout history, even including a few hundred years ago. Edited October 31, 2013 by halconero
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 For the most part, yes, gays choose that lifestyle based on circumstances, events, etc. What circumstances and events can you think of that would make it attractive to choose a lifestyle that is almost universally despised and discriminated against, that could cost you your relationships with family and friends, that you've been told your whole life is an abomination? I don't buy into the whole "born that way" attitude. A hundred years ago there were very few gay people. Nowdays there are increasingly more and more gay people- they are not born that way, they choose to be that way. There aren't more gay people as a percentage of the population than there were before. It's just that fewer feel the need to hide their sexuality. We keep treating this issue as if its a natural thing- people just born that way. I dont buy it. Whether you buy it or not, it's true.
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) My wife never kissed anyone until we were engaged, so that doesn't apply. I kissed a few girls in my time, but no, kissing girls when I was 16 or 18 didn't have much to do with whom I was going to marry. When I got home from my mission, I kissed a sister missionary I had known in Bolivia. She was very attractive and had been Miss Weber State before her mission, but we both knew it was meaningless. I did feel a little guilty about it afterward. Of course it applies. did you two or not express a desire to be with one another when you two kissed? Yes or no? Did you or did you not express a desire to be with someone or to show affection with the possibility of furthering that affection with someone when you kissed other girls while you dated them? It doesn't even have to be with the girls you kissed but that somewhere down the road you wanted to end up with someone. I don't get how kissing has no impact on your being with a future spouse. The reason of feeling guilt for kissing the former Miss Weber State because the kiss was "meaningless"? Doesn't "meaningless" mean you did something that should have meaning but knew that it did not? What would that meaning be, I wonder? Edited October 31, 2013 by Darren10
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Neither of those quotes says anything about new revelation but rather that doctrine comes from revelation, and we judge doctrine by those revelations. If new revelation comes and is accepted as scripture, it stands, whether it is consistent with what we knew in the past. Yes, we judge doctrines according to revelations. So, what if a revelation came to a living prophet and it contradicted doctrines of the Standard Works? What if the LDS church announced a new revelation to the world which contradicted the Standard Works' doctrines? Has that ever happened? If not, why would it with homosexuality?
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Wow... so there still are people who believe this. Good to know. What you cited with Rob Osborn find absolutely true. There's nothing to contradict it.
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Of course it applies. did you two or not express a desire to be with one another when you two kissed? Yes or no? Did you or did you not express a desire to be with someone or to show affection with the possibility of furthering that affection with someone when you kissed other girls while you dated them? It doesn't even have to be with the girls you kissed but that somewhere down the road you wanted to end up with someone. I don't get how kissing has no impact on your being with a future spouse. It just means to me that the last thing on my mind when I was 16 and kissing the first girl I ever kissed was who I would marry. Isn't the reason of feeling guilt for kissing the former Miss Weber State because the kiss what "meaningless". Doesn't "meaningless" mean you did something that should have meaning but knew that it did not? What would that meaning be, I wonder? No, I felt guilty because we were just two kids who hadn't kissed anyone in a couple of years and needed a good snog.
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 When did you choose to be straight? I choose it every day and every moment. No different than any other choice. BTW, if someone is "homophobic" is it a choice?
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 What you cited with Rob Osborn find absolutely true. There's nothing to contradict it. No, it's just garden-variety ignorance.
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) It just means to me that the last thing on my mind when I was 16 and kissing the first girl I ever kissed was who I would marry. No, I felt guilty because we were just two kids who hadn't kissed anyone in a couple of years and needed a good snog. Nobody said it was. But, did it not *further* you ultimate goal of ending up with a wife? You knew at 16 that someday you'd be married, no? Now what was the "meaning" which was supposed to have existed in kissing the would be Miss Universe (until you screwed it up ) Edited October 31, 2013 by Darren10
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I choose it every day and every moment. No different than any other choice. BTW, if someone is "homophobic" is it a choice? Not necessarily. Some people have hatred of gays pounded into them their whole lives and don't have much of a choice in the matter. Like this kid, who doesn't have a prayer: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/30/aint-no-homos-gonna-make-it-to-heaven_n_1555735.html
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 No, it's just garden-variety ignorance. Thanks, and what contradicts Rob's statement? What is he ignorant of? He admits there's gender confusion and choice. You seem to claim that there is little to no choice for homosexuals.
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Nobody said it was. But, did it not *further* you ultimate goal of ending up with a wife? You knew at 16 that someday you'd be married, no? Now what was the "meaning" which was supposed to have existed in kissing the would be Miss Universe (until you screwed it up ) I think it was that we bought had been taught that such things mean something, but because it didn't, we should feel guilty. And who says I screwed it up?
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Not necessarily. Some people have hatred of gays pounded into them their whole lives and don't have much of a choice in the matter. Like this kid, who doesn't have a prayer:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/30/aint-no-homos-gonna-make-it-to-heaven_n_1555735.html Nope, you're being ignorant (according to your previous posts' logic) and I say homophobia is something others are born with. they don't have a choice. BTW, I say that all homosexuals will loose exaltation. Am I homophobic? Is that hateful?
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I think it was that we bought had been taught that such things mean something, but because it didn't, we should feel guilty. And who says I screwed it up? I don't follow beauty pageants but when did Miss Weber become Miss Universe? Being brought up "that way" regardless, what was that meaning your kiss was suppose to have? /I'll give you a last chance to answer and then I'll speak for you since you've apparently become impotent in explaining.
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Thanks, and what contradicts Rob's statement? What is he ignorant of? He admits there's gender confusion and choice. You seem to claim that there is little to no choice for homosexuals. Sexuality is something that is hard-wired into us by adolescence. It's not something you choose. If it was a choice, don't you think there would be even minimal success at all those "reparative therapy" places? Think about it: people go to these programs because they don't want to be gay. They choose not to be gay. If it's just a choice, these places should be resounding successes, but instead their failure rate is spectacular. Would shock therapy work in changing your sexual orientation? Why not?
rodheadlee Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 If I give my wife a kiss in the chapel after sacrament meeting when she goes to Primary (which I do every Sunday), no one thinks twice about it. You cannot tell me the same would be true if two men kissed in the same setting.Why would you do it? If you were gay and you know it offends your fellow members for you to kiss in church, why would you want to offend them? I can't quit smoking, Is it ok if I light up a Marlboro between SS and PH? It's really tough going 3 hours.
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 There aren't more gay people as a percentage of the population than there were before. It's just that fewer feel the need to hide their sexuality. Where in the world did you get that from?
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Nope, you're being ignorant (according to your previous posts' logic) and I say homophobia is something others are born with. they don't have a choice. I'm not following you. Some people choose to be homophobic. Others don't. Can you provide a single example of someone who chose to be gay? How about someone who was gay and chose to be straight? BTW, I say that all homosexuals will loose exaltation. Am I homophobic? Is that hateful? No, that's your religious belief. Saying that people choose to be gay, with no evidence and against all scientific evidence, is ignorant and silly.
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Why would you do it? If you were gay and you know it offends your fellow members for you to kiss in church, why would you want to offend them? I can't quit smoking, Is it ok if I light up a Marlboro between SS and PH? It's really tough going 3 hours. LoL - I remember when someone light one up in the church men's room. Man that stink lingered for hours.
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