jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Why would you do it? If you were gay and you know it offends your fellow members for you to kiss in church, why would you want to offend them? I can't quit smoking, Is it ok if I light up a Marlboro between SS and PH? It's really tough going 3 hours. You do realize that smoking is against the Word of Wisdom, which these days has the force of a commandment. Where's the commandment against kissing? The law of chastity is about having sexual relations with someone who isn't your spouse. Calling a brief kiss "sexual relations" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I'm not following you. Some people choose to be homophobic. Others don't. Can you provide a single example of someone who chose to be gay? How about someone who was gay and chose to be straight? No, that's your religious belief. Saying that people choose to be gay, with no evidence and against all scientific evidence, is ignorant and silly. Nope. You're ignorant. There are no less homophobic people today than before, the homophobes are just now more scared (ironic word, eh?) to show it. /Catch my drift?
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I'm not following you. Some people choose to be homophobic. Others don't. Can you provide a single example of someone who chose to be gay? How about someone who was gay and chose to be straight? No, that's your religious belief. Saying that people choose to be gay, with no evidence and against all scientific evidence, is ignorant and silly. What "scientific evidence" says there's just as many gays now as before and that it's all innate behavior? My religious beliefs gives everyone a choice. What does science do?
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Where in the world did you get that from? Do you really think there were fewer gays before? Why would you think that? The reason gays are "out" is that, after the sexual revolution, it has been less socially damaging to come out than it was before. Before, people like Roy Cohn and Joseph Fielding Smith stayed in the closet.
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Nope. You're ignorant. There are no less homophobic people today than before, the homophobes are just now more scared (ironic word, eh?) to show it. /Catch my drift?What "scientific evidence" says there's just as many gays now as before and that it's all innate behavior? My religious beliefs gives everyone a choice. What does science do? There's a difference between being gay and acting on your sexual orientation. Your religion recognizes that being gay may not be a choice, but acting on it is a choice (science agrees, oddly enough). Osborn, on the other hand, thinks both are choices.
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) jkwilliams; What you've ignored, despite knowing the doctrines, is that your sexual choice will have a direct impact on who you'll be and what you'll be able to do in the eternities. A man must choose a woman and a woman must choose a man to receive all the Father's blessings. You've also ignored the fact that you as well as all humans use physical affection as a means to communicate and enhance a personal desire to be with someone else. Each time you kissed a girl, you expressed that desire and acted upon a drive to use your sexuality which was given to you to enjoy having a family. Your kiss with the former sister missionary which you knew in Bolivia made you both feel guilty precisely because both of you knew that kissing should mean that you were committing one to another and despite knowing that would never happen you did it anyway. When two homosexuals kiss they are expressing exactly what you were expressing. That is a desire to use their sexuality and to show affection and commitment to the other person. But, again, where will that lead to in the eternities? It guarantees no exaltation for it guarantees no sealing power of the priesthood. Satan knows this and the recent movement to accept homosexual behavior as a norm and just as fine as heterosexual behavior is a big victory for Satan. I don't doubt at all that Satan focuses on getting people to loose their exaltation, which is easy to loose, rather than getting them to Outer Darkness, which is really hard to accomplish. Satan makes homosexual behavior look just as normal as heterosexual behavior and therefore "not bad". What God wants is not just being good but becoming exalted. God wants exaltation and nothing less. The purpose of the LDS Church is to get individuals to the temple where the eternal promise of being crowned in glory is pronounced and no practicing homosexual will even receive that promise. That's the eternal impact of choices and sexuality. Edited October 31, 2013 by Darren10
DBMormon Posted October 31, 2013 Author Posted October 31, 2013 There may be some genuine rare cases of gender confusion but for the most part homosexuals choose to be gay. And with that you no longer have a view supported by science or the Church. And since both realms disagree with you, I see no reason to continue this since with you holding this view we are going nowhere fast. 1
halconero Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) I choose it every day and every moment. No different than any other choice. BTW, if someone is "homophobic" is it a choice? "So...I can just choose to not be attracted to men? What point of the day is best for being able to choose to be sexually attracted to women? What's your best moment?" - My roommate looking over my shoulder I'm also not going to go down that path of comparing homophobia with sexual orientation. Edited October 31, 2013 by halconero 1
Rob Osborn Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Wait. Maybe this is just semantics...are you saying that people choose who they are attracted to? Or their lifestyle? I can agree the latter, but not the former. Also, I can provide you with more than a few examples of the existence of gay people throughout history, even including a few hundred years ago. I honestly believe most gay people are not born that way
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Do you really think there were fewer gays before? Why would you think that?The reason gays are "out" is that, after the sexual revolution, it has been less socially damaging to come out than it was before. Before, people like Roy Cohn and Joseph Fielding Smith stayed in the closet. You have absolutely no substance to uphold your numeric claims. You're making your statements based on your bias, nothing more. I don't know if Roy Cohn was gay (nor do I care) but was Joseph Fielding Smith gay or are you referring to polygamy? If so, how did polygamy in his time prevent one from entering into the temple?
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 And with that you no longer have a view supported by science or the Church. And since both realms disagree with you, I see no reason to continue this since with you holding this view we are going nowhere fast. HUH????
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 "So...I can just choose to not be attracted to men? What point of the day is best for being able to choose to be sexually attracted to women? What's your best moment?" - My roommate looking over my shoulder I'm also not going to go down that path of comparing homophobia with sexual orientation. Sure you can choose? Why not? I can choose to become sexually attracted to men but I don't. Even though I have no desire to, I still don't make that choice. I can; but don't. Why not compare homophobia with the argument that homosexuals are born that way? Why not homophobes?
Rob Osborn Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 And with that you no longer have a view supported by science or the Church. And since both realms disagree with you, I see no reason to continue this since with you holding this view we are going nowhere fast. Care to share the churchs view?
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 jkwilliams; What you've ignored, despite knowing the doctrines, is that your sexual choice will have a direct impact on who you'll be and what you'll be able to do in the eternities. My opinion might be different if I believed that, but I do not. A man must choose a woman and a woman must choose a man to receive all the Father's blessings. According to beliefs I don't hold. You've also ignored the fact that you as well as all humans use physical affection as a means to communicate and enhance a personal desire to be with someone else. People use physical affection for much more than that. Each time you kissed a girl, you expressed that desire and acted upon a drive to use your sexuality which was given to you to enjoy having a family. Which begs the question: why were gay men and women given their sex drive? Obviously it's not to have children. Your kiss with the former sister missionary which you knew in Bolivia made you both feel guilty precisely because both of you knew that kissing should mean that you were committing one to another and despite knowing that would never happen you did it anyway. I don't feel guilty about it now. My wife, however, hates that sister missionary with a passion. When two homosexuals kiss they expressing exactly what you were expressing. That is a desire to use their sexuality and to show affection and commitment to the other person. Or it just expresses physical affection. My mom kisses me every time I see her, but it has nothing to do with sexuality. But, again, where will that lead to in the eternities? It guarantees no exaltation for it guarantees no sealing power of the priesthood. Again, I have a very hard time with the idea that God would intentionally create people who must be lonely and miserable throughout their mortal life if they want to be blessed in the eternities. That makes God a bit of a sadist, if you ask me. Satan knows this and the recent movement to accept homosexual behavior as a norm and just as fine as heterosexual behavior is a big victory for Satan. I don't doubt at all that Satan focuses on getting people to loose their exaltation, which is easy to loose, rather than getting them to Outer Darkness, which is really hard to accomplish. Satan makes homosexual behavior look just as normal as heterosexual behavior and therefore "not bad". That's your right to believe this. From my perspective, homosexual behavior is a fact of life, whether we acknowledge it or not. Given that, I believe encouraging committed relationships is preferable to creating obstacles to commitment and thereby contributing to promiscuity with its attending ills. What God wants is not just being good but becoming exalted. God wants exaltation and nothing less. The purpose of the LDS Church is to get individuals to the temple where the eternal promise of being crowned in glory is pronounced and no practicing homosexual will even receive that promise. That's the eternal impact of choices and sexuality. Makes me kind of glad I don't believe that.
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 You have absolutely no substance to uphold your numeric claims. You're making your statements based on your bias, nothing more. I don't know if Roy Cohn was gay (nor do I care) but was Joseph Fielding Smith gay or are you referring to polygamy? If so, how did polygamy in his time prevent one from entering into the temple? In 1942 Heber J. Grant called Joseph Fielding Smith (1899-1964) as the Church Patriarch. A grandson of President Joseph F. Smith and the nephew of President Joseph Fielding Smith, Patriarch Smith was homosexual. In the 1920s, when Joseph was an instructor at the University of Utah, he had a homosexual relationship with Norval Service, a student. Later he became sexually involved with another Mormon young man. In 1946 the young man made a confession, and President George Albert Smith released Patriarch Smith at once. Even though he was sent to Hawaii "in exile" and banned from holding positions in the LDS Church, he was never excommunicated. In 1957 he was rehabilitated into the Church, being allowed to hold callings and use the priesthood.
DBMormon Posted October 31, 2013 Author Posted October 31, 2013 Sexuality is something that is hard-wired into us by adolescence. It's not something you choose. If it was a choice, don't you think there would be even minimal success at all those "reparative therapy" places? Think about it: people go to these programs because they don't want to be gay. They choose not to be gay. If it's just a choice, these places should be resounding successes, but instead their failure rate is spectacular.Would shock therapy work in changing your sexual orientation? Why not?The "success" rate with these barely even registers. This was a good point. Many wish their"gay" gene would go away and it doesn't even after the clinical effort to help them choose otherwise. I can't believe we are even discussing if Gay is a choice!!! WOW, I want to say several things that are true and yet each would be reason to remove me from this thread. WOW is all I will say
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 The "success" rate with these barely even registers. This was a good point. Many wish their"gay" gene would go away and it doesn't even after the clinical effort to help them choose otherwise. I can't believe we are even discussing if Gay is a choice!!! WOW, I want to say several things that are true and yet each would be reason to remove me from this thread. WOW is all I will say What "gay gene?" Why don't homophobes have a "homophobe gene"?
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Being homosexual may not be a choice for some but how one chooses to use their sexuality always is.
rockpond Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 A man must choose a woman and a woman must choose a man to receive all the Father's blessings. A doctrine that is so important that it is mentioned in the scriptures over and over again. Oh wait... actually it's not. p.s. I thought that the purpose of the LDS church was to bring souls to Christ.
Darren10 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 #165; In 1942 Heber J. Grant called Joseph Fielding Smith (1899-1964) as the Church Patriarch. A grandson of President Joseph F. Smith and the nephew of President Joseph Fielding Smith, Patriarch Smith was homosexual. In the 1920s, when Joseph was an instructor at the University of Utah, he had a homosexual relationship with Norval Service, a student. Later he became sexually involved with another Mormon young man. In 1946 the young man made a confession, and President George Albert Smith released Patriarch Smith at once. Even though he was sent to Hawaii "in exile" and banned from holding positions in the LDS Church, he was never excommunicated. In 1957 he was rehabilitated into the Church, being allowed to hold callings and use the priesthood. LoL!!! Before Binging that, what the h*ll source did that come from?
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 What "gay gene?" Why don't homophobes have a "homophobe gene"? You have to be taught to be a homophobe, and it isn't hard-wired like sexuality, thank heavens.
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 #165; LoL!!! Before Binging that, what the h*ll source did that come from? That's from Michael Quinn, but the facts are not in dispute. You can look it up.
DBMormon Posted October 31, 2013 Author Posted October 31, 2013 Care to share the churchs view? Mormonsandgays.org"The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them."
halconero Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) Sure you can choose? Why not? I can choose to become sexually attracted to men but I don't. Even though I have no desire to, I still don't make that choice. I can; but don't. Why not compare homophobia with the argument that homosexuals are born that way? Why not homophobes? Why does the church website say "Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them."? I told you I'm not going there. Edited October 31, 2013 by halconero
DBMormon Posted October 31, 2013 Author Posted October 31, 2013 Being homosexual may not be a choice for some but how one chooses to use their sexuality always is. Then let's take a challenge. Do not use your sexuality on another woman for the rest of your life. Are you strong enough to do that?
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