Ideas For Handling Of Gays Within The Church

[Darren10]

Here's the Quinn interview:

 

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/quinn.html

 

I could not find the exact reference here but the topic of Quinn claiming that homosexuality was accepted by the LDS Church and its leaders until the 1940s was repeated at a known former Mormon site:

 

D. Michael Quinn, an excommunicated Mormon historian, wrote a book in 1996 entitled, “Same-sex Dynamics among nineteenth-century Americans: A Mormon Example.” In his book, he argues that homosexual relationships between both men and women were quietly accepted by the LDS Church and its leadership up until the 1940′s.

 

We do not know if Mr. Quinn’s claims are true or false. However, a quote from Jerald and Sandra Tanner, ex-Mormon researchers, writing in April, 1997, in the Salt Lake Messenger, speaking about Mr.Quinn’s claims, particularly concerning the Mormon “law of adoption,” which saw men sealed to men in the Mormon temple, stated,

 

Ummm, yeah, right.

[rockpond]

No we did not.  There never was any doctrinal structure with regards to the "African Descent issue" -- it was always understood that those of African Descent would eventually get access to all of the ordinances, etc. The difference in the two camps was whether they would get it before the millenium.  In addition,  African Descent has nothing to do with the ability to reproduce -- the fact that Exaltation involves the continuation of seed for the creation of spirit children is built into our doctrine.  It is why we have both a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother.  This is not just a matter of overcoming cultural obstacles it goes to Mormon beliefs as to how the cosmos is structured with regards to gods.

 

No doctrinal structure with regards to the African Descent issue?  I would direct you to Lester Bush's article Mormonism's Negro Doctrine... it's fairly well documented.

[CV75]

if you look at statements describing marriage between a man and a woman (or women) and assume that because those ARE mentioned that gay marriage must be forbidden.

The "shall" in "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" provides sufficient  imperative to consider any other formulation as forbiden.

[rockpond]

The writing of Paul, where homosexuality is expressly condemned, are slightly more than fifty years old. 

 

Paul did not speak of committed marital relationships for gay couples.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I have tourette syndrome and ADHD so I can't control what I always think and feel. Does that mean I'll be in trouble for thinking things I have no control over?

[Darren10]

Darren sometimes you have to stop using any means to justify an end.  This post is right on

1.) The brethren no longer suggest this attraction will or can change in this life (change of position)

2.) They no longer suggest this is a choice and are adamant now about it not being a choice.  (change of position)

3.) They have also been blunt that SSA is not sin and only acting on those thoughts are. (this wasn't always the case I believe)

4.) While holding the Doctrinal ground that has been established, they have changed their approach to one that is more empathetic, compassionate, and inclusive.

5.) People who feel they are unacceptable to God and are taught to believe their very core of who they are is not good enough will always have higher rates of depression and suicide.

 

The Church is trying to find a happy medium of including them and helping them feel loved while still maintaining the essential Doctrine.  Time will tell.  but you holding old ground when the Church itself wouldn't claim it is problematic

 

1) When did they teach they *will* eventually change? The LDS Church has and still teaches that *all* immoral behavior is changable. They never said people will change nor that change is guaranteed but it is possible to change *any* immoral behavior. Where do I err in saying that?

2) I'll look into gays and mormons and see what you're refering to. You're probably right though I'll have to see myself.

3) When have I disagreed to this? Ever?

4) Show an example of the previous position (officially by the Church) to a "more compassionate, and inclusive" one. I don't recall the LDs church ever teaching to oust the gays from among them; especially in the family.

5) Ah, don't you love King mosiah's speech and us being lower than the dust pf the earth if we sin? I truly do enjoy that speech. I don't feel my own core is acceptable to God. But I know I still have a choice on how to act. That's what's important. Acting righteously decreases depression significantly and the same holds for homosexuals.

[rockpond]

The "shall" in "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" provides sufficient  imperative to consider any other formulation as forbiden.

 

Yep... like I said:  Stand  your ground.  And keep in mind, that nearly every other Christian religion in the world would likely use this verse as part of their explanation for why polygamy is forbidden.  And an abomination.

[Darren10]

Paul did not speak of committed marital relationships for gay couples.

 

[Stone holm]

No doctrinal structure with regards to the African Descent issue?  I would direct you to Lester Bush's article Mormonism's Negro Doctrine... it's fairly well documented.

 

Could not open your link, but it has always been conceded that those of African Descent would eventually get the Priesthood, etc.  Even the early editions of BRM's early editions of Mormon Doctrine conceded that much. the question there was timing.  The African Descent doctrine -- to the extent it was considered doctrine, which I agree it was -- did not impact the structure of the cosmos where you have male and female gods creating spirit children.

[Stone holm]

I have tourette syndrome and ADHD so I can't control what I always think and feel. Does that mean I'll be in trouble for thinking things I have no control over?

 

No, so long as you are trying to control them.

[Darren10]

I have tourette syndrome and ADHD so I can't control what I always think and feel. Does that mean I'll be in trouble for thinking things I have no control over?

 

Only how you act conscientiously and think about this you have control over.

[rockpond]

 

I know, Darren, it is crazy isn't it?  We've got no scriptural references that talk about gay marriage and no published revelation that refers to gay marriage and yet we still believe that we can speak for what God wants for his homosexual children with respect to marriage.

[Darren10]

Yep... like I said:  Stand  your ground.  And keep in mind, that nearly every other Christian religion in the world would likely use this verse as part of their explanation for why polygamy is forbidden.  And an abomination.

 

Even though their own patriarchs practiced polygamy? How does that work?

[rockpond]

Could not open your link, but it has always been conceded that those of African Descent would eventually get the Priesthood, etc.  Even the early editions of BRM's early editions of Mormon Doctrine conceded that much. the question there was timing.  The African Descent doctrine -- to the extent it was considered doctrine, which I agree it was -- did not impact the structure of the cosmos where you have male and female gods creating spirit children.

 

I just tested the link and it works for me, but you can just do a search for "Lester Bush Mormonism's Negro Doctrine" and it should direct you to Dialogue's website with the article.  It's well referenced and shows the doctrinal structure that was created to support the temple & priesthood ban for those of African descent.

[Darren10]

I know, Darren, it is crazy isn't it?  We've got no scriptural references that talk about gay marriage and no published revelation that refers to gay marriage and yet we still believe that we can speak for what God wants for his homosexual children with respect to marriage.

 

Yet we have ample scriptures of a man and woman marrying, all organic creations to "multiply in their sphere and element", and homosexual acts condemend explicitly just like sexual acts between a man and a woman *outside the bonds of marriage*. All these testify agains same sex marruage / relations. And do we have explicit scriptures of a sexual act between a non married man ad woman but who "truly loved each other and were of consenting age"? The Holy spirit testifies to you on a much grander intellectual scale than you're allowing to admit.

[rockpond]

Even though their own patriarchs practiced polygamy? How does that work?

 

I don't have a reference for you on that but as I've discussed that very question with non-LDS Christians, they told me that the practice was condemned of God... that some of the patriarchs/prophets were punished for it... and that God sometimes overlooked it to continue His greater mission (or something along those lines).

 

Like I said, not a real reference, just my experience.  But you certainly aren't denying that most other Christian faiths condemn the practice of polygamy?

[Rob Osborn]

If I were Satan and I wanted to destroy the family institution then the "gay agenda" would be a top priority for pushing onto Christianity. If you can convince the powers that be to legalize and even admire gay priorities then the acts of child bearing diminish greatly. Satan knows that sexual gratification and how one uses it has extremely great powers on the mind and body. He also knows that all forms of sexual perversions or sexual acts can be addictive even more addictlive than any drug on earth. Breaking down the family comes in the form of sexual temptation- getting people to try, accept, and eventually condone immoral behavior. His number one tool in this agenda is to convince mankind that it is OK and normal to engage in deviant sexual behavior. In classic times this brought the downfall to Greek nd Roman civilizations. The Greeks came to hold certain homosexual practices as godly and were widespread in their many perversions. No one can say they were "born" that way. It became the socialized accepted norm in their society. This is Satans work- no more and certainly no less! By constant bombardment into our homes Satan is attacking the family through television, internet, books, movies, magazines, radio, clothing, etc to break down conservative values long held in great esteem and is replacing long held Christian views regarding the sancity of marriage and sexuality within marriage by producing in our minds and bodies the same pleasurable feelings from this filth that which feelings should only be enjoyed and bridaled between married couples.

I had a conversation years ago with a bisexual young female passenger in our vehicle. Out of the blue she asked- "have you ever tried a threesome"? Immediately there arose in me a desire of temptation to explore that. And then also instantly was the large red stop sign in my mind. This seemingly little thing had never entertained my mind and yet there it was. I can point out here that I have no real desire to try these sexual perversions but I also cannot deny that temptations of these types can and often do produce strong chemical reactions in th emind that people can and do get pulled into. To say that people are just born that way is Satans greatest tool and the very one in which he championed before mortality. If we let our carnality of our natural minds take over our bodies it would be no time at all before we were just like Sodom and Gomorrah! We have been commanded in the right and correct ways to express love and affection and sexual gratification. Only within the bonds of marriage can all those feelings be properly and fully attained and be of sanctity and holiness. The chemicals released into our bodies will be the same be it a homesexual act or a hetrosexual act and it is those chemicals that drive our desires. We are "born" with these chemical rushes at our disposal but it is up to us to bridal them and use them only in the manner prescribed by God. It is for our own eventual benefit that these proper feelings will come to fruition. Its truly sad that Satan uses these same chemical responses and feelings to distort and corrupt that which is most sacred and holy.

We must be vigilant in knocking down and destroying the works of Satan. The gay agenda is just one of those things- a work of Satan. Are we to become as the ancient Greeks and slip entirely into moral decay?

[rockpond]

Yet we have ample scriptures of a man and woman marrying, all organic creations to "multiply in their sphere and element", and homosexual acts condemend explicitly just like sexual acts between a man and a woman *outside the bonds of marriage*. All these testify agains same sex marruage / relations. And do we have explicit scriptures of a sexual act between a non married man ad woman but who "truly loved each other and were of consenting age"? The Holy spirit testifies to you on a much grander intellectual scale than you're allowing to admit.

 

Please do not presume to know how the Holy Spirit testifies to me.  Especially followed by ridiculous emoticons.

[Darren10]

The so called reparative therapy is a scam. It is the equivalent of saying I can change your sexual orientation. If it were up to me every single one of these quackes would be behind bars. I did say it was incredibly hard. I don't recommend anyone try to do it, and am much more interested in helping that person accept who and what they are.

 

Exactly with an admonition to do what is right. I won't deridewould encourage them to do what is right and to make a correct choice.  a person just because he / she is gay but I will encourage them to make a right choice (to note, beyond my family, the only person in the world I'm truly concerned about his rightoeuness is myself). I know they can change but that's not to say I'll push the issue.

[Darren10]

I don't have a reference for you on that but as I've discussed that very question with non-LDS Christians, they told me that the practice was condemned of God... that some of the patriarchs/prophets were punished for it... and that God sometimes overlooked it to continue His greater mission (or something along those lines).

 

Like I said, not a real reference, just my experience.  But you certainly aren't denying that most other Christian faiths condemn the practice of polygamy?

 

how could it be conemned of God if Moses is written to have concubines *AND* be a servant of God as well as God giving wives to King David for his righteousness?

[rockpond]

If I were Satan and I wanted to destroy the family institution then the "gay agenda" would be a top priority for pushing onto Christianity. If you can convince the powers that be to legalize and even admire gay priorities then the acts of child bearing diminish greatly. Satan knows that sexual gratification and how one uses it has extremely great powers on the mind and body. He also knows that all forms of sexual perversions or sexual acts can be addictive even more addictlive than any drug on earth. Breaking down the family comes in the form of sexual temptation- getting people to try, accept, and eventually condone immoral behavior. His number one tool in this agenda is to convince mankind that it is OK and normal to engage in deviant sexual behavior. In classic times this brought the downfall to Greek nd Roman civilizations. The Greeks came to hold certain homosexual practices as godly and were widespread in their many perversions. No one can say they were "born" that way. It became the socialized accepted norm in their society. This is Satans work- no more and certainly no less! By constant bombardment into our homes Satan is attacking the family through television, internet, books, movies, magazines, radio, clothing, etc to break down conservative values long held in great esteem and is replacing long held Christian views regarding the sancity of marriage and sexuality within marriage by producing in our minds and bodies the same pleasurable feelings from this filth that which feelings should only be enjoyed and bridaled between married couples.

I had a conversation years ago with a bisexual young female passenger in our vehicle. Out of the blue she asked- "have you ever tried a threesome"? Immediately there arose in me a desire of temptation to explore that. And then also instantly was the large red stop sign in my mind. This seemingly little thing had never entertained my mind and yet there it was. I can point out here that I have no real desire to try these sexual perversions but I also cannot deny that temptations of these types can and often do produce strong chemical reactions in th emind that people can and do get pulled into. To say that people are just born that way is Satans greatest tool and the very one in which he championed before mortality. If we let our carnality of our natural minds take over our bodies it would be no time at all before we were just like Sodom and Gomorrah! We have been commanded in the right and correct ways to express love and affection and sexual gratification. Only within the bonds of marriage can all those feelings be properly and fully attained and be of sanctity and holiness. The chemicals released into our bodies will be the same be it a homesexual act or a hetrosexual act and it is those chemicals that drive our desires. We are "born" with these chemical rushes at our disposal but it is up to us to bridal them and use them only in the manner prescribed by God. It is for our own eventual benefit that these proper feelings will come to fruition. Its truly sad that Satan uses these same chemical responses and feelings to distort and corrupt that which is most sacred and holy.

We must be vigilant in knocking down and destroying the works of Satan. The gay agenda is just one of those things- a work of Satan. Are we to become as the ancient Greeks and slip entirely into moral decay?

 

If I were Satan and I wanted to destroy the family, I'd encourage people to keep marginalizing homosexuals.  Encourage their families to make gay & lesbian loved ones feel "less than".  Encourage homosexuals to feel forced into heterosexual marriages only to have those unions fall apart after bringing precious children into the world.  I'd encourage church members to feel that they have all the knowledge they need with respect to sexual orientation so that they don't seek out further light & knowledge.

 

But, Rob, I'm confident that I have no ability to change your opinion on this.  Eventually, however, the pressure will become too great, the loss of membership too high, and enough faithful church members will ask "why?"

[rockpond]

how could it be conemned of God if Moses is written to have concubines *AND* be a servant of God as well as God giving wives to King David for his righteousness?

 

Not really something that I pretend to understand, I was just sharing with you the explanation I had been given.

 

It's a relatively muddy area for me... In Jacob 2 we read that the Lord considered David's wives and concubines to be "abominable".

[Stone holm]

If I were Satan and I wanted to destroy the family institution then the "gay agenda" would be a top priority for pushing onto Christianity. If you can convince the powers that be to legalize and even admire gay priorities then the acts of child bearing diminish greatly. Satan knows that sexual gratification and how one uses it has extremely great powers on the mind and body. He also knows that all forms of sexual perversions or sexual acts can be addictive even more addictlive than any drug on earth. Breaking down the family comes in the form of sexual temptation- getting people to try, accept, and eventually condone immoral behavior. His number one tool in this agenda is to convince mankind that it is OK and normal to engage in deviant sexual behavior. In classic times this brought the downfall to Greek nd Roman civilizations. The Greeks came to hold certain homosexual practices as godly and were widespread in their many perversions. No one can say they were "born" that way. It became the socialized accepted norm in their society. This is Satans work- no more and certainly no less! By constant bombardment into our homes Satan is attacking the family through television, internet, books, movies, magazines, radio, clothing, etc to break down conservative values long held in great esteem and is replacing long held Christian views regarding the sancity of marriage and sexuality within marriage by producing in our minds and bodies the same pleasurable feelings from this filth that which feelings should only be enjoyed and bridaled between married couples.

I had a conversation years ago with a bisexual young female passenger in our vehicle. Out of the blue she asked- "have you ever tried a threesome"? Immediately there arose in me a desire of temptation to explore that. And then also instantly was the large red stop sign in my mind. This seemingly little thing had never entertained my mind and yet there it was. I can point out here that I have no real desire to try these sexual perversions but I also cannot deny that temptations of these types can and often do produce strong chemical reactions in th emind that people can and do get pulled into. To say that people are just born that way is Satans greatest tool and the very one in which he championed before mortality. If we let our carnality of our natural minds take over our bodies it would be no time at all before we were just like Sodom and Gomorrah! We have been commanded in the right and correct ways to express love and affection and sexual gratification. Only within the bonds of marriage can all those feelings be properly and fully attained and be of sanctity and holiness. The chemicals released into our bodies will be the same be it a homesexual act or a hetrosexual act and it is those chemicals that drive our desires. We are "born" with these chemical rushes at our disposal but it is up to us to bridal them and use them only in the manner prescribed by God. It is for our own eventual benefit that these proper feelings will come to fruition. Its truly sad that Satan uses these same chemical responses and feelings to distort and corrupt that which is most sacred and holy.

We must be vigilant in knocking down and destroying the works of Satan. The gay agenda is just one of those things- a work of Satan. Are we to become as the ancient Greeks and slip entirely into moral decay?

 

Nonsense.  The top agenda item for destroying the traditional family would be to create an economic system wherein the family becomes less and less of an asset and more and more of a liability.  You want to destroy traditional family, destroy the cohesiveness of the local community and neighborhood -- spread divisiveness and distrust get people to be afraid of letting the neighborhood help raise their family, replace family businesses and farms with large corporations and industrial farming, make a huge gap between the haves and have nots, etc.  That is how you destroy family values.  The Greeks were overcome by the superior military organization and tactics of the Romans not because of moral decay, Rome was destroyed because it allowed huge disparity of wealth and began to rely on mercenary armies which the emperors eventually got into bidding wars as to who was going to compensate them better, etc.  Both Rome and Greek were both fairly indifferent to bi-sexual relations,  Rome actually fell after it abandoned their pagan ways to make Christianity their established relgion.

[Rob Osborn]

If I were Satan and I wanted to destroy the family, I'd encourage people to keep marginalizing homosexuals.  Encourage their families to make gay & lesbian loved ones feel "less than".  Encourage homosexuals to feel forced into heterosexual marriages only to have those unions fall apart after bringing precious children into the world.  I'd encourage church members to feel that they have all the knowledge they need with respect to sexual orientation so that they don't seek out further light & knowledge.

 

But, Rob, I'm confident that I have no ability to change your opinion on this.  Eventually, however, the pressure will become too great, the loss of membership too high, and enough faithful church members will ask "why?"

I know Satans works. They are very plainly manifest. All homosexual acts are the works of Satan just as are his myriad of other sexual perversions and temptations. Just as I cannot accept the agenda of legalizing same sex marriage, I also too cannot accept homosexuality as "normal" behavior.

[Scott Lloyd]

3.) They have also been blunt that SSA is not sin and only acting on those thoughts are. (this wasn't always the case I believe)

I don't believe the Church has ever taught that SSA in and of itself, without acting on it, is a sin. I have no memory of such instruction.

 

Do you have documentation to the contrary?