Ideas For Handling Of Gays Within The Church

[VideoGameJunkie]

What you've paraphrased above is not what I was saying. Or trying to say. My point was that if the Lord can call polygamy both an abomination and a righteous lifestyle when authorized by him. Then He could do the same with homosexuality. I, personally, do not believe that homosexual (sexual) activity is a sin when done within the bonds of marriage. Lest I be misunderstood. But I do recognize that is not the current position of the church.

Sodomy is a sin, even with married couple. That's the only way gay men can have fornication.

[rockpond]

Why, in the world, is one of your desires to imagine that one of your kids were to be gay? And why can't they stay in church? Knowing the promises of the temple first-hand, are they not the promises you want for them?

No, for their sake I hope that they are NOT gay. My hope is that if they do happen to be gay (they are all pre-pubescent right now) that the church will be a more hospitable place for them to stay.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I never even thought about what if when I have kids, if they turn out gay. I won't know how I would feel until I have to deal with a situation like that.

[rockpond]

Sodomy is a sin, even with married couple. That's the only way gay men can have fornication.

CFR

[VideoGameJunkie]

CFR

Closet Fart Rocket?

[rockpond]

Closet Fart Rocket?

Call For Reference that sodomy is a sin for a married heterosexual couple.

[Darren10]

What you've paraphrased above is not what I was saying. Or trying to say. My point was that if the Lord can call polygamy both an abomination and a righteous lifestyle when authorized by him. Then He could do the same with homosexuality. I, personally, do not believe that homosexual (sexual) activity is a sin when done within the bonds of marriage. Lest I be misunderstood. But I do recognize that is not the current position of the church.

 

Yes, God *could* do the same with homosexuality but whenever has He and so why would He ever? To create children? To become "one flesh"? To strengthen families? Based on what you know, why would God sanction gay marriage? There's nothing in the Standard Works which even remotely promotes the concept of two men together married, ditto two women. Modern-day revelation only furthers that fact So, what do you base this possibility of god sanctioning gay marriage?

 

You do not believe that homosexual activity is not a sin within marriage? When in the history of humanity have homosexuals been married? State-sanctioned gay marriages is a modern-day phenomena and expressly condemned by the LDS Church. Does God recognize these marriages? No, He does not and therefore, they are an abomination.  They are abominable in every way, shape, and form before God. There's no way around it. So, not only is accepting gay marriage contrary to the LDs church's position but it's against God's position as well.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Darren10

[Darren10]

No, for their sake I hope that they are NOT gay. My hope is that if they do happen to be gay (they are all pre-pubescent right now) that the church will be a more hospitable place for them to stay.

 

Why will the Church NOT be a "hospitable" place? In the singles branch I attended one person was excommunicated for homosexual activity and for bragging that the Church is going to excommunicate him for it. I can tell you that there was no place on earth more accepting of that person than in that branch. He and I live way far apart now but we facebook regularly. He's a fun guy to be with and to know.

 

How will their becoming gay help them prepare for the temple? Let's leave aside "The Church's position". Think strictly of the temple covenants and promises and how would anyone becoming gay help them receive those promises and make those covenants?

Edited November 1, 2013 by Darren10

[Darren10]

Closet Fart Rocket?

 

Ewwwwwww. Keep a lighter away from that dude.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Darren10

[Darren10]

No, for their sake I hope that they are NOT gay.

 

My, my, what ever would you mean by that?

[Tacenda]

Okay. And I'll keep believing pretty much the opposite of everything you said. And we can wait and see which direction the church goes.

I don't know I think the church is working pretty hard in Hawaii right now to keep it from legalizing SSM.

[rockpond]

Yes, God *could* do the same with homosexuality but whenever has He and so why would He ever? To create children? To become "one flesh"? To strengthen families? Based on what you know, why would God sanction gay marriage? There's nothing in the Standard Works which even remotely promotes the concept of two men together married, ditto two women. Modern-day revelation only furthers that fact So, what do you base this possibility of god sanctioning gay marriage?

You do not believe that homosexual activity is not a sin within marriage? When in the history of humanity have homosexuals been married? State-sanctioned gay marriages is a modern-day phenomena and expressly condemned by the LDS Church. Does God recognize these marriages? No, He does not and therefore, they are an abomination. They are abominable in every way, shape, and form before God. There's no way around it. So, not only is accepting gay marriage contrary to the LDs church's position but it's against God's position as well.

Yes, gay marriage (from a legally recognized perspective) may be a relatively new phenomenon. But God seems work within our cultures ... Though I believe He does try to steer them.

We no longer treat women as chattel but that's how they were treated in the example you used of David's wives.

We grow, we progress... in knowledge, enlightenment, culture. Maybe God wanted us to reach the point of legal gay marriage. Did He inspire our work for Prop 8? Cause now that has taken the country one step closer to full marriage equality with the SCOTUS ruling.

To focus on your more important questions... Why would God sanction gay marriage? Why is the church currently an inhospitable place for homosexuals? Etc.

It boils down to this -- one of my most fundamental beliefs: the Savior taught us love and compassion. The plan of salvation teaches us the importance of relationships. I want my children, regardless of their sexual orientation, to love and to serve and to develop compassion. While that can be done in a number of ways, one of the best (in my belief) is through marriage and family. I want that for them. It's infinitely rewarding. And if God can create a child who is solely attracted to individuals of the same gender, if He gives that child an inherent ability to love and be loved, if that child builds selfless committed relationships in mortality and then God refuses to honor those relationships... Well, count me out. I want no part of it because it is inconsistent with what the Spirit whispers to my heart.

[rockpond]

I don't know I think the church is working pretty hard in Hawaii right now to keep it from legalizing SSM.

When you say "the church"... Is there any evidence that the direction is coming from anyone above the local leadership in the state?

[Rob Osborn]

lol.  I completely dispute every point you tried feebly to use to justify this position, and you come back with this???  Your statement is complete frabrication and only shows your prejudice against gays.  CFR the gay agenda is satan/s agenda.

I dont have to spell it out. Deviant sexual behaviour is not the Lords way.

[Tacenda]

Closet Fart Rocket?

You definitely have a form of Tourette syndrome, lol. I think my neighbor has a mild case and can be somewhat offensive, though everybody loves him. Once when I was trying to get by him in Gospel Doctrine to sit down, I said "excuse me" or maybe I said "sorry". Then he said out loud so people could hear, "why, did you fart?" And this was before I new he might have a form of it. And how I came to realize it is because one day I was subbing at a school when they had an assembly with author Richard Paul Evans discussing his latest book. Apparently it had to do with Tourettes because he started making a clucking noise with his mouth closed, can't describe it, and said he had a mild form of it. Well guess what? My neighbor does the same thing! Now I see why my neighbor will say things that get him in trouble.

[Buzzard]

Yes, gay marriage (from a legally recognized perspective) may be a relatively new phenomenon. But God seems work within our cultures ... Though I believe He does try to steer them. We no longer treat women as chattel but that's how they were treated in the example you used of David's wives. We grow, we progress... in knowledge, enlightenment, culture. Maybe God wanted us to reach the point of legal gay marriage. Did He inspire our work for Prop 8? Cause now that has taken the country one step closer to full marriage equality with the SCOTUS ruling. To focus on your more important questions... Why would God sanction gay marriage? Why is the church currently an inhospitable place for homosexuals? Etc. It boils down to this -- one of my most fundamental beliefs: the Savior taught us love and compassion. The plan of salvation teaches us the importance of relationships. I want my children, regardless of their sexual orientation, to love and to serve and to develop compassion. While that can be done in a number of ways, one of the best (in my belief) is through marriage and family. I want that for them. It's infinitely rewarding. And if God can create a child who is solely attracted to individuals of the same gender, if He gives that child an inherent ability to love and be loved, if that child builds selfless committed relationships in mortality and then God refuses to honor those relationships... Well, count me out. I want no part of it because it is inconsistent with what the Spirit whispers to my heart.

He also said, "If you love me, keep my commandments". And spoke against sexual immorality many times. Gays love to point out that he never singled out homosexual relationships, but Paul cleared out any Biblical misunderstandings, and modern prophets have been crystal clear as well.

What  you do not get is that the most loving and compassionate thing we can do for those struggling with this issue is to be clear on the expectations, and to let them know that if they partake of this sin, they are inviting eternal misery and regret in the world to come. You want them to feel affirmed in their behavior for a handful of years now, or know unending joy in their father's kingdom later?

[Rob Osborn]

Yes, gay marriage (from a legally recognized perspective) may be a relatively new phenomenon. But God seems work within our cultures ... Though I believe He does try to steer them. We no longer treat women as chattel but that's how they were treated in the example you used of David's wives. We grow, we progress... in knowledge, enlightenment, culture. Maybe God wanted us to reach the point of legal gay marriage. Did He inspire our work for Prop 8? Cause now that has taken the country one step closer to full marriage equality with the SCOTUS ruling. To focus on your more important questions... Why would God sanction gay marriage? Why is the church currently an inhospitable place for homosexuals? Etc. It boils down to this -- one of my most fundamental beliefs: the Savior taught us love and compassion. The plan of salvation teaches us the importance of relationships. I want my children, regardless of their sexual orientation, to love and to serve and to develop compassion. While that can be done in a number of ways, one of the best (in my belief) is through marriage and family. I want that for them. It's infinitely rewarding. And if God can create a child who is solely attracted to individuals of the same gender, if He gives that child an inherent ability to love and be loved, if that child builds selfless committed relationships in mortality and then God refuses to honor those relationships... Well, count me out. I want no part of it because it is inconsistent with what the Spirit whispers to my heart.

I see no good reason God would create same gender attraction mates. That goes against all His laws.

[Darren10]

Yes, gay marriage (from a legally recognized perspective) may be a relatively new phenomenon. But God seems work within our cultures ... Though I believe He does try to steer them.

We no longer treat women as chattel but that's how they were treated in the example you used of David's wives.

We grow, we progress... in knowledge, enlightenment, culture. Maybe God wanted us to reach the point of legal gay marriage. Did He inspire our work for Prop 8? Cause now that has taken the country one step closer to full marriage equality with the SCOTUS ruling.

To focus on your more important questions... Why would God sanction gay marriage? Why is the church currently an inhospitable place for homosexuals? Etc.

It boils down to this -- one of my most fundamental beliefs: the Savior taught us love and compassion. The plan of salvation teaches us the importance of relationships. I want my children, regardless of their sexual orientation, to love and to serve and to develop compassion. While that can be done in a number of ways, one of the best (in my belief) is through marriage and family. I want that for them. It's infinitely rewarding. And if God can create a child who is solely attracted to individuals of the same gender, if He gives that child an inherent ability to love and be loved, if that child builds selfless committed relationships in mortality and then God refuses to honor those relationships... Well, count me out. I want no part of it because it is inconsistent with what the Spirit whispers to my heart.

Joseph Fielding Smith was treated compassionately after being excommunicated for homosexual behavior. That was always been the LDS Church's standard, consistent with the Savior's teachings and example. While you express earthly reasons for God to OK gay marriage, I utterly fail to see why God would do so. He's never done it before, the sexual itself is explicitly condemned in ancient and modern scripture, as well same-sex marriage being explicitly condemned by modern scripture, it does not promote eternal creation and is denied exaltation and God wants nothing less than exaltation. And if God does something and the spirit whispers something contrary to your heart than frankly you're listening to the wrong spirit and that's not good. Same-sex marriage will do nothing to foster eternal marriages, more compassion within others, charity, etc. in fact I fear it would do the exact opposite.

[Storm Rider]

Yes, gay marriage (from a legally recognized perspective) may be a relatively new phenomenon. But God seems work within our cultures ... Though I believe He does try to steer them. We no longer treat women as chattel but that's how they were treated in the example you used of David's wives. We grow, we progress... in knowledge, enlightenment, culture. Maybe God wanted us to reach the point of legal gay marriage. Did He inspire our work for Prop 8? Cause now that has taken the country one step closer to full marriage equality with the SCOTUS ruling. To focus on your more important questions... Why would God sanction gay marriage? Why is the church currently an inhospitable place for homosexuals? Etc. It boils down to this -- one of my most fundamental beliefs: the Savior taught us love and compassion. The plan of salvation teaches us the importance of relationships. I want my children, regardless of their sexual orientation, to love and to serve and to develop compassion. While that can be done in a number of ways, one of the best (in my belief) is through marriage and family. I want that for them. It's infinitely rewarding. And if God can create a child who is solely attracted to individuals of the same gender, if He gives that child an inherent ability to love and be loved, if that child builds selfless committed relationships in mortality and then God refuses to honor those relationships... Well, count me out. I want no part of it because it is inconsistent with what the Spirit whispers to my heart.

 

Few things are as difficult for a parent as to see their child(ren) suffer or struggle. SSA, in some cases, I do not think, is choice; it simply is the way it is. I don't know where it comes from or why it exists, but for those where there is no choice; it is as real.

 

I think your logic above is what I hear most from people that support this issue or try to find a logic that allows for it to exist within a Godly manner.  Love is all that is needed and if there is love then the relationship is acceptable. The problem with that line of thinking is that it necessarily ignores the rest of the Bible about obedience, commandments, purity, and those verses that clearly say that a man should not lie with a man.

 

What is a parent to do with a gay child and how should other members and the Church respond to their needs?  This, I think, is where we should be teaching and addressing the issue. It is far too easy for those that follow Christ and believe that commandments are to be observed to become self-appointed chastisers for God. It is not their role and it is not an acceptable behavior. The Church's purpose is to invite all to come unto Christ regardless of who they are, what they have done; there is not exception to this invitation; every child of God is invited to come to him.  

 

I believe that behavior is important and some behaviors will put us outside of fellowship i.e. we may not pray in church or hold a calling. However, that does not indicate that the door is closed. I am not nearly as concerned with one's behavior as I am with their desire to follow Christ. Their individual trials, weaknesses, and failings are not for me to work through; they belong to them and their Father in Heaven to work through.

 

The role of a Church is different than the role of a family. In a family all can pray, teach lessons, etc. We need to be clear on what is sin and understand that sin is a personal matter. The Church must set a standard to follow, but our daily actions are to love and forgive. I think it is error to confuse the purpose of the Church and the individual.  

[sdc999]

I see no good reason God would create same gender attraction mates. That goes against all His laws.

“The black is a better athlete to begin with because he’s been bred to be that way — because of his high thighs and big thighs that goes up into his back, and they can jump higher and run faster because of their bigger thighs. This goes back all the way to the Civil War when during the slave trading, the owner — the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid.”Jimmy Snyder - otherwise know as Jimmy the Greek.  

 

When Adam and Eve left the Garden, purity was done.  Some love to say that God has a hand in all things.  I have often asserted that He is a wonderful loving God who has given us freedom to choose our paths.  Over time, humans have introduced many 'not good' things to their bodies and overtime, our bodies have changed.  Much the same as if a child was born to parents who have done drugs.  Some of those imperfections (altered by drug use) created were passed down to the next generation.  Case in point.  Many years ago, a relative (on drugs) had twins out of wedlock.  The babies were taken from her immediately, been raised by a loving, non drug using parent ever since.  My wife, a school teacher, said they will more than likely have learning disabilities as they grow older as a result of their mother's choices.  Sure enough, they struggle a lot in school.   Current parents are hands on so it's not a matter of kids who are falling through the cracks.  

Now, I am not saying that if you have a child that is diabled, for whatever reason, that you are a bad, immoral person who has made terrible choices in life.  But, I will say that mankind has played a major role in the progessive state of where mankind goes.  Genes make skip generations or even several.  But, we are a product of our own choices.

 

As a side note, Jimmy was done after this quote went public. Why?  It really does hold a lot of truth.  No, I am by far from being a racist.  And a modern day comparison would be:  I saw a player on a college football team the other day (big White boy).  His grandfather played in the NFL, his dad played in the NFL (great player) and now he, the son, is destined to do the same.   It wasn't a fluke that they were all big men; they married women who were bigger and basically bred  big offspring.  

 

So, to sum up, I don't think God sits up on his throne and throws darts at a sheet of paper and says,  'down syndrome, mentally retarted, normal or even gay'.   I think humans have slowly evolved with poor choices over thousands of years that have introduced bad results into societies.   It all goes with the often cited, "why does God allow bad things to happen?"   He allows man to happen and manly ways to proceed.  Nature is allowed to happen.

 

Offering gratuitous and offensive references to race is considered as race baiting on this board.  Offensive references to the intellectually challenged are also a no-no.   You will be removed if it happens again.

[Bob Crockett]

Joseph Fielding Smith was treated compassionately after being excommunicated for homosexual behavior. 

This is a good example of a sinner who can repent and return to the Church, and can change.   He died in full faith and fellowship in the Church had after his return to the Church served as a member of a High Council in Hawaii.

 

I have said many times on this board that the public media does not acknowledge that there is a huge sub rosa community of men (and women) with same-sex attraction but who function in normal heterosexual marriages.  In the Church, in particular, I have known of at least one bishop in that situation, as well as many others.   Some times they can't remain faithful in their marriages, but a very large percentage (at least as I see it) do.  They find the message of the Gospel to be compelling.

 

So, I disagree with DBMormon's suggestion that the Church has become more "inclusive" of gays.  It hasn't.   It has been more public with its compassion.  I have seen Church leaders be compassionate with adulterers, as well.  

Edited November 1, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[jkwilliams]

It's credited to Quinn and I can see him saying that or that being a valid summation of Quinn's arguments since that's what Sex Dynamics seems to indicate.

 

Then you completely missed the point. Quinn argues, correctly in my view, that non-sexual displays of affection between two people of the same sex were not seen as indicators of homosexuality in the 19th century, at least not the way they would be interpreted today. He gives the example of Evan Stephens, the MoTab director; things that Stephens did (living with a series of handsome young men, sleeping in the same bed, etc.) would be interpreted today as indication that the man was a homosexual, but none of appears to have raised any red flags back then.  Nowhere is Quinn arguing that homosexuality was allowed by the church up until the 1940s.

 

If yours is a valid summation of Quinn's arguments, perhaps you could point to a single argument or more that can be summed up that way.

[Darren10]

This is a good example of a sinner who can repent and return to the Church, and can change.   He died in full faith and fellowship in the Church had after his return to the Church served as a member of a High Council in Hawaii.

 

I have said many times on this board that the public media does not acknowledge that there is a huge sub rosa community of men (and women) with same-sex attraction but who function in normal heterosexual marriages.  In the Church, in particular, I have known of at least one bishop in that situation, as well as many others.   Some times they can't remain faithful in their marriages, but a very large percentage (at least as I see it) do.  They find the message of the Gospel to be compelling.

 

So, I disagree with DBMormon's suggestion that the Church has become more "inclusive" of gays.  It hasn't.   It has been more public with its compassion.  I have seen Church leaders be compassionate with adulterers, as well.  

 

That's a great example as to how the LDS Church *IS* a hospitable place for everyone, including homosexuals.

[Darren10]

Then you completely missed the point. Quinn argues, correctly in my view, that non-sexual displays of affection between two people of the same sex were not seen as indicators of homosexuality in the 19th century, at least not the way they would be interpreted today. He gives the example of Evan Stephens, the MoTab director; things that Stephens did (living with a series of handsome young men, sleeping in the same bed, etc.) would be interpreted today as indication that the man was a homosexual, but none of appears to have raised any red flags back then.  Nowhere is Quinn arguing that homosexuality was allowed by the church up until the 1940s.

 

If yours is a valid summation of Quinn's arguments, perhaps you could point to a single argument or more that can be summed up that way.

 

Today's society is vastly more sexualized than decades ago, period.

[jkwilliams]

Joseph Fielding Smith was treated compassionately after being excommunicated for homosexual behavior.

 

Hmmm. Yesterday you told me that the story of JFSmith's homosexuality was a lie invented by gay anti-Mormon Michael Quinn and repeated by this lying apostate.

 

What changed your mind?