Responding To Accusations Of Hate Speech

[thesometimesaint]

 If you do something that I (and a majority of citizens) find immoral and have created a law to that effect, then I (and the people of the state/country that I live in) have the right to use the law against you.

 

It happens every day.

 

Have you ever read a criminal incitement?

 

for example The people of the state of California vs danzo 

 

What I said is true. You are adding the conditional that a majority find it immoral AND that it is already against the law. Moreover in this country there are limits to what can be considered illegal. IE; No ex post facto and you can't vote to take away the established rights someone else.

 

Yes violations of the law happen every day.  We have millions of people overcrowding our jails, and court systems.

 

I've written criminal complaints.

 

I live in California.

[Danzo]

You seem to be under the illusion that lawmaker's morals are somehow absent when they write and vote on laws.

I don't think its possible to separate the two.  Robots do not make laws, people do.  As hard as it may be to believe, Even Judges are people and their decisions are based on their morals.  I have seen many a case go to the more sympathetic party, even though the law may not be on their side.  

[Stone holm]

You seem to be under the illusion that lawmaker's morals are somehow absent when they write and vote on laws.

I don't think its possible to separate the two.  Robots do not make laws, people do.  As hard as it may be to believe, Even Judges are people and their decisions are based on their morals.  I have seen many a case go to the more sympathetic party, even though the law may not be on their side.  

 

Depends what you mean by "morals".

[thesometimesaint]

You seem to be under the illusion that lawmaker's morals are somehow absent when they write and vote on laws.

I don't think its possible to separate the two.  Robots do not make laws, people do.  As hard as it may be to believe, Even Judges are people and their decisions are based on their morals.  I have seen many a case go to the more sympathetic party, even though the law may not be on their side.  

 

I'd rather not get into the morals, or lack there of, in our lawmakers.

 

If you want a more sympathetic jury, go before a judge(50/50% chance of acquittal. Stay away from a jury trial(80%+ chance of guilty verdict).

[Stone holm]

I'd rather not get into the morals, or lack there of, in our lawmakers.

 

If you want a more sympathetic jury, go before a judge(50/50% chance of acquittal. Stay away from a jury trial(80%+ chance of guilty verdict).

 

He is correct though, legislators do not operate in a cultural vacuum -- and given that morals are primarily cultural views they influence legislators, that is why we have a Bill of Rights and judicial review to put some brakes on the potential tyranny of the majority over the individual.

[thesometimesaint]

He is correct though, legislators do not operate in a cultural vacuum -- and given that morals are primarily cultural views they influence legislators, that is why we have a Bill of Rights and judicial review to put some brakes on the potential tyranny of the majority over the individual.

 

No one that I know of operates in a moral/cultural vacuum. I've never said that morals don't influence our laws or lawmakers. What I have consistently said is that morals should not be the only influence on them. There needs to be an overriding secular reason for the laws we do enact. IE; Religions should be able to meet whenever and pretty much wherever they choose. Fire Codes are there to protect the people once they are meeting there.

[Rob Osborn]

Last time I checked our laws are always morally debated and/or morally based. SSM is a perfect example of being debated on the strict grounds of the morality of it.

[thesometimesaint]

I have nothing against morals, or acting in a moral way. What I do have against is imposing a law without sufficient secular reasons behind it.

[Stone holm]

Last time I checked our laws are always morally debated and/or morally based. SSM is a perfect example of being debated on the strict grounds of the morality of it.

 

Yeah, there isn't much doubt about the "morality" debates in politics, what we are talking about, however, is what is legitimate as a basis for legislation.  There is such a thing, I believe in civil or secular morality which probably comes into play in such things as SEC disclosure and consumer fraud, etc. etc.  But if we are talking about strictly religious morality that does not have a secular basis to hang ones hat on, if it is simply "God told so and so that it shouldn't be done."  Well then no that shouldn't be the basis of legislation no matter that the vast majority of the people really believe that God did in fact tell so and so that it shouldn't be done.

[Danzo]

Depends what you mean by "morals".

I guess that is the key to the discussion

[Rob Osborn]

Yeah, there isn't much doubt about the "morality" debates in politics, what we are talking about, however, is what is legitimate as a basis for legislation.  There is such a thing, I believe in civil or secular morality which probably comes into play in such things as SEC disclosure and consumer fraud, etc. etc.  But if we are talking about strictly religious morality that does not have a secular basis to hang ones hat on, if it is simply "God told so and so that it shouldn't be done."  Well then no that shouldn't be the basis of legislation no matter that the vast majority of the people really believe that God did in fact tell so and so that it shouldn't be done.

I think one can find enough moral ground on most moral issues to make a legitimate case without invoking a religious doctrine from one sect or another. Like homosexual marriage, there are some pretty good evidences that it isnt healthy for society.

[thesometimesaint]

Drinking alcohol may be a moral issue for some. Driving a car while drunk is a legal issue. I don't drink alcohol, though legal I'm of age where I may do so. When the US outlawed the drinking of alcohol it was regarded as a moral issue, and that one didn't go over very well.

 

It is debatable if SSM is good for society or not. It will never have more than a small minority of participants. The human race would die out pretty quickly otherwise. Likewise polygamy will never have more than a small minority of participants. The social costs, and population dynamics preclude its widespread participation. That being said I see no legally consistent way to outlawing either. 

Edited November 19, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Stone holm]

Drinking alcohol may be a moral issue for some. Driving a car while drunk is a legal issue. I don't drink alcohol, though legal I'm of age where I may do so. When the US outlawed the drinking of alcohol it was regarded as a moral issue, and that one didn't go over very well.

 

It is debatable if SSM is good for society or not. It will never have more than a small minority of participants. The human race would die out pretty quickly otherwise. Likewise polygamy will never have more than a small minority of participants. The social costs, and population dynamics preclude its widespread participation. That being said I see no legally consistent way to outlawing either.

Yes, it was considered a moral issue. But even there it was primarily a cultural issue that got it enough votes to obtain passage. What gained it enough votes was the desire to break up the saloons which were the cultural centers of the urban immigrants and a desire to strike a blow to the German Americans. It did in fact destroy the old fashion saloons as community centers. Unfortunately, it replaced them with something worse. My ancestors first started voting as Prohibitionists.

[thesometimesaint]

What Prohibition did was pit Catholic morals against Protestant morals. Whose morals are the more moral?

 

To quote Mercutio in Romeo and Juliette "A plague on both your houses".

[Stone holm]

What Prohibition did was pit Catholic morals against Protestant morals. Whose morals are the more moral?

 

To quote Mercutio in Romeo and Juliette "A plague on both your houses".

 

True to a certain extent, but there was also a racist issue floating around.  Nowadays we think of racism mainly in terms of white vs black/brown, back then it included racism against recent immigrants like the Italians and Irish -- and as we moved towards WWI against the Germans.  Most current historians give credit to the anti-German sentiment against the German brewers credit for pushing it into place. It is interesting that women activists played a major role in first getting it adopted and then later getting it repealed.

[thesometimesaint]

True to a certain extent, but there was also a racist issue floating around.  Nowadays we think of racism mainly in terms of white vs black/brown, back then it included racism against recent immigrants like the Italians and Irish -- and as we moved towards WWI against the Germans.  Most current historians give credit to the anti-German sentiment against the German brewers credit for pushing it into place. It is interesting that women activists played a major role in first getting it adopted and then later getting it repealed.

 

True, Politics and booze make for strange bedfellows.

[Stone holm]

True, Politics and booze make for strange bedfellows.

 

Well actually they make pretty good bedfellows, but trying to make something illegal which a very large percentage of the people don't think is all that bad, just doesn't work so well.  We currently have almost exactly the same problem with marijuana with almost exactly the same results -- prisons filled to the gills, huge percentage of the population using, major illegal and violent trade, etc.

[thesometimesaint]

Well actually they make pretty good bedfellows, but trying to make something illegal which a very large percentage of the people don't think is all that bad, just doesn't work so well.  We currently have almost exactly the same problem with marijuana with almost exactly the same results -- prisons filled to the gills, huge percentage of the population using, major illegal and violent trade, etc.

 

A wise woman once told me that sure being bedfellows is fun, but what are you going to do for the next 23 hours, and 55 minutes in the day.

 

We don't seem to learn that very valuable lesson do we? I could clear out about half the prison population today just by not prosecuting nonviolent drug users.

[Stone holm]

A wise woman once told me that sure being bedfellows is fun, but what are you going to do for the next 23 hours, and 55 minutes in the day.

 

We don't seem to learn that very valuable lesson do we? I could clear out about half the prison population today just by not prosecuting nonviolent drug users.

 

Vermont is trying to figure out exactly how you go about doing that.  Our problem right now is we are being flooded with gangs from New Jersey who come up here, get women addicted to heroin and then use them as mules.  Previously we had a drug problem, but it was kind of under the rug and discrete run by a couple families in the region, but these young gang members from New Jersey are violent and have put guns in the mix and have begun turf wars.  Its difficult for the small towns to beef up their police departments to deal with the situation.  So we have a roving State Police task force that roams from small city to small city busting like 30 or so at a crack.  I think the Governor is hung up on one wanting to get the pot smokers out of prison, but also wanting to drive the out of state heroin pushers out of the State -- so its sort of a muddle at this point.  Not sure what the problem is down in Gov. Christie's State but sure wish he would quarantine his gangs, I pity the innocent person from New Jersey who visits the State they are likely to get a very suspicious greeting from Vermonters.

[thesometimesaint]

Vermont is trying to figure out exactly how you go about doing that.  Our problem right now is we are being flooded with gangs from New Jersey who come up here, get women addicted to heroin and then use them as mules.  Previously we had a drug problem, but it was kind of under the rug and discrete run by a couple families in the region, but these young gang members from New Jersey are violent and have put guns in the mix and have begun turf wars.  Its difficult for the small towns to beef up their police departments to deal with the situation.  So we have a roving State Police task force that roams from small city to small city busting like 30 or so at a crack.  I think the Governor is hung up on one wanting to get the pot smokers out of prison, but also wanting to drive the out of state heroin pushers out of the State -- so its sort of a muddle at this point.  Not sure what the problem is down in Gov. Christie's State but sure wish he would quarantine his gangs, I pity the innocent person from New Jersey who visits the State they are likely to get a very suspicious greeting from Vermonters.

 

Guns change the equation really quickly. The violent ones need a really long prison sentence. One so long that it changes their minds and/or keeps us safe from them.

[Stone holm]

Guns change the equation really quickly. The violent ones need a really long prison sentence. One so long that it changes their minds and/or keeps us safe from them.

 

Yes that is true and part of the argument being made.  Vermont is a little bipolar on that point though -- as we have a rather more clear and broad right to bear arms clause in our State Constitution than in the Federal Constitution -- so much of what little gun regulation we have is piggy-backed on Federal legislation.  But we have a very low violent crime rate -- but the forays of out of state gangs are making it a bit difficult.  Not sure why New Jersey in particular seems to be sending out gang recruiters -- we lump all of them into one as the "Jersey Boys" -- but actually it is more than one gang headquartered in New Jersey.

[thesometimesaint]

Yes that is true and part of the argument being made.  Vermont is a little bipolar on that point though -- as we have a rather more clear and broad right to bear arms clause in our State Constitution than in the Federal Constitution -- so much of what little gun regulation we have is piggy-backed on Federal legislation.  But we have a very low violent crime rate -- but the forays of out of state gangs are making it a bit difficult.  Not sure why New Jersey in particular seems to be sending out gang recruiters -- we lump all of them into one as the "Jersey Boys" -- but actually it is more than one gang headquartered in New Jersey.

 

I'm neither a pro-gun nut nor an anti-gun nut. But I am against allowing a nut behind the trigger.

 

Gangs are areal problem. I don't know the solution to the problem of gangs. However most gang-bangers are just kids. Their sense of alienation and abandonment by their parents, their schools, and their churches play a big role in it. I believe that if we solve those causes much of gang-banging would disappear.

 

Here in California we had judges sending gang-bangers across county lines just to get them out of that judge's jurisdiction. It worked for a while until other judges would sent their own gang-bangers to those judges jurisdiction.

[Stone holm]

I'm neither a pro-gun nut nor an anti-gun nut. But I am against allowing a nut behind the trigger.

 

Gangs are areal problem. I don't know the solution to the problem of gangs. However most gang-bangers are just kids. Their sense of alienation and abandonment by their parents, their schools, and their churches play a big role in it. I believe that if we solve those causes much of gang-banging would disappear.

 

Here in California we had judges sending gang-bangers across county lines just to get them out of that judge's jurisdiction. It worked for a while until other judges would sent their own gang-bangers to those judges jurisdiction.

Not these gangs, these are in their twenties and some of the women mules are in their forties. The cure is close knit communities with jobs and things for everyone to be involved in. For some reason the price of heroin is falling in the cities to the South and so the gangs are trying to open new markets up here. Europe solved the violence part by legalizing much of it and destroying the market.

[Avatar4321]

The response is simple. it's the same thing we do even if there are no accusations.

 

We reach out to people in kindness and friendship and strive to live a Christ-like life.

[Stone holm]

The response is simple. it's the same thing we do even if there are no accusations.

 

We reach out to people in kindness and friendship and strive to live a Christ-like life.

 

I agree