Did Elder Oaks Open The Door For Women To Perform All Priesthood Ordinances?

[ksfisher]

Just because some (a very specific and limited set) ordinances don't require ordination, doesn't mean IMO that all ordinances don't need it.

 

I believe that for women to officiate in temple ordinances that revelation was received.  But, as with much that goes on in the temple, it's just not published to the world.  Someday, when the world is ready, all that the Lord has revealed to is prophets will be published.  Until that time I believe that, as with many revelations to his prophets of old, he has asked them to keep some things hidden.

[stemelbow]

Agreed that the church, it's leaders, and it's members make mistakes.  But divine approval is not contingent upon perfection. 

 

I think, then, we're talking past each other a bit.  I'm not saying divine approval is contingent upon perfection.  I am saying some may be mistaken regarding divine approval.  I think there is precedent set regarding my view of this.  Joseph Smith apparently said sometimes what we perceive as revelation from God is really something else--this is a quick allusion to the copyright being sold story. 

[Buckeye]

But women also work with the women in the endowment where modesty is not an issue.

Though I do agree with you, one shouldn't assume what is done in the temple in two limited ways (initiatiory and endowment) equates to all ordinances.

 

Set aside the reasons for a second.  My point was simply that our leadership does, right now, have the authority to allow women to perform priesthood ordinances even if the women are not ordained.  Maybe that's for convenience.  Maybe modesty.  It doesn't really matter.  All I'm trying to establish is that no additional keys are required for this to happen.  I agree that the brethren would pray about it and hopefully receive a revelation.  But unlike with ordinantion itself, no additional keys would need to be given.  No additional messengers would need to lay their hands on President Monson.  He and the 12 already have all the authority they need to do this.

[Calm]

Would not be the least bit surprised, ksfisher.

[Calm]

Joseph Smith apparently said sometimes what we perceive as revelation from God is really something else--this is a quick allusion to the copyright being sold story.

Isn't that a false memory that has been demonstrated to be unlikely? I can't remember exactly the details that have been uncovered through the JSP project for the copyright revelation.

[stemelbow]

Isn't that a false memory that has been demonstrated to be unlikely? I can't remember exactly the details that have been uncovered through the JSP project for the copyright revelation.

 

I'll have to look.  If you have something I'm ready to read.  I hesitated posting that sentence because in the back of my mind I too thought it might have been more second or third hand.  I couldn't find it in my quick search attempts though. 

[Calm]

All I'm trying to establish is that no additional keys are required for this to happen.  I agree that the brethren would pray about it and hopefully receive a revelation.  But unlike with ordinantion itself, no additional keys would need to be given.  No additional messengers would need to lay their hands on President Monson.  He and the 12 already have all the authority they need to do this.

I don't think you've established that, but only assumed it.

We don't know though if he was only given authority to do so in so far as Templework. It may be only relevant to the keys having to do with the temple and not other keys.

[Calm]

I'll have to look. If you have something I'm ready to read. I hesitated posting that sentence because in the back of my mind I too thought it might have been more second or third hand. I couldn't find it in my quick search attempts though.

My memory says it was thirdhand, from David Whitmer who was not there at the time.

I am pretty sure FM has stuff on it.

Edited April 7, 2014 by calmoriah

[bluebell]

But women also work with the women in the endowment where modesty is not an issue.

Though I do agree with you, one shouldn't assume what is done in the temple in two limited ways (initiatiory and endowment) equates to all ordinances.

 

True, but they don't pronounce blessings or anything of that sort, like they do in initiatories, which in every other venue requires ordination.  I believe initiatories is unique in the temple in regards to what the women are involved in.

[bluebell]

Set aside the reasons for a second.  My point was simply that our leadership does, right now, have the authority to allow women to perform priesthood ordinances even if the women are not ordained.

 

They have the authority to allow women to perform priesthood ordinances in one very specific place and for very specific acts.

 

Is there any reason we should believe that this authority was extended by God to other places and acts?

 

I think you are assuming things here that we have been given no reason to assume.

[ksfisher]

Isn't that a false memory that has been demonstrated to be unlikely? I can't remember exactly the details that have been uncovered through the JSP project for the copyright revelation.

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705337036/Newly-found-revelation-of-Joseph-Smith.html?pg=all

[The Nehor]

How dare you? 

I dare all.

.

I agree.  But that does not ensure infallibility.  So its possible policy could change without divine approval.  It's possible it could be set int he first place without divine approval, it seems to me.  Rest assured though, the nehor disagrees with me.  I'm feeling good about that for some reason.

Of course it is possible things could go wrong but we are not talking about something simple that someone will change out of the blue. Changing who performs ordinances is not minor. If I was in charge I would not even consider it unless the Spirit was bearing down on my mind to do so.

Feeling good about disagreeing with me is the pride that comets before the fall. Make no mistake. It will destroy you.

[Calm]

True, but they don't pronounce blessings or anything of that sort, like they do in initiatories, which in every other venue requires ordination.  I believe initiatories is unique in the temple in regards to what the women are involved in.

I agree. And Templework required different keys besides the ones given for Priesthood as they were restored or given to Joseph at a different time.

I don't think all the keys should be lumped together as if they were interchangeable in what they govern or whatever the appropriate term would be.

[Calm]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705337036/Newly-found-revelation-of-Joseph-Smith.html?pg=all

Excellent, thank you.

"Whitmer said Joseph \"enquired of the Lord about it\" and received a revelation that said, \"Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.\"\"David Whitmer puts those words into Joseph Smith's mouth,\" Harper said. \"That's exactly what I expect out of David Whitmer.\"Whitmer's memory of Joseph's response to \"revelation\" is similar to a later revelation found in Doctrine and Covenants 46:7 that says some commandments \"are of men, and others of devils.\" He also erroneously remembered Toronto was the destination"

[ERayR]

I guess but I sustain them as Prophets, seers and revelators not opinionators, dumb analogizers and odd tie/suit wearers! (Elder Ballard, purplie tie with a dark grey suit? really? have to do that eh? )

 

You must remember he is a theological expert not a fashion expert.

[mtomm]

Relief Society is described as an appendage.  Do we refer to priesthood quorums as appendages?  Is an appendage equal in authority to the main body?  

[stemelbow]

My memory says it was thirdhand, from David Whitmer who was not there at the time.

I am pretty sure FM has stuff on it.

 

Yes my example is called into question.

 

http://fr.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Attempt_to_sell_copyright

 

Oopsie.  My bad.  Thanks for helping me out.

[stemelbow]

I dare all.

.

Of course it is possible things could go wrong but we are not talking about something simple that someone will change out of the blue. Changing who performs ordinances is not minor. If I was in charge I would not even consider it unless the Spirit was bearing down on my mind to do so.

Feeling good about disagreeing with me is the pride that comets before the fall. Make no mistake. It will destroy you.

 

Well, that's all I'm saying things could go wrong.  I'm not going to shut out the possibility that things that aren't minor may be wrong.

 

 no need trying to destroy me, I've destroyed myself. 

[ksfisher]

Relief Society is described as an appendage.  Do we refer to priesthood quorums as appendages?  Is an appendage equal in authority to the main body?  

 

The purpose of the priesthood is to perform saving ordinances on behalf of both the living and the dead.  The Relief Society (or for that matter Primary or Young Women's or the Sunday School) do not perform such ordinances.  They teach and support the members in how to keep the covenants they've made when the received those ordinances.  Just as a husband and wife complement each other, the roles of the priesthood and the auxilliaries complement each other as well.  Neither is more important than the other.

[mtomm]

The purpose of the priesthood is to perform saving ordinances on behalf of both the living and the dead.  The Relief Society (or for that matter Primary or Young Women's or the Sunday School) do not perform such ordinances.  They teach and support the members in how to keep the covenants they've made when the received those ordinances.  Just as a husband and wife complement each other, the roles of the priesthood and the auxilliaries complement each other as well.  Neither is more important than the other.

 

Not really, we could eliminate the R.S., Primary, YW, YM and still function as a Church.  We cannot eliminate Priesthood ordinances and still function.  I don't think we can really compare husband/wife/family to church operations. 

[Ahab]

During the April 2014 Priesthood Session, Elder Oaks gave extensive counsel regarding priesthood authority, priesthood power, and priesthood keys. Very importantly, he stated that the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 do not have authority to extend priesthood ordination to women at this time. However, he also stated that all work done in the church, including work done by non-priesthood holders, is done under delegated priesthood authority from someone with keys. This work includes priesthood ordinances performed by sisters in the temple, which are done under the authority of the temple president's keys.

Below are excerpts selected by me from a transcription of Elder Oaks' remarks that I found at mormonheretic. This transcript appears correct from my memory, but I welcome anyone to point out errors if they exist. To my knowledge, the church has not yet issued a formal transcription of Elder Oaks' remarks.

(emphasis mine; source: http://mormonheretic.org/2014/04/06/elder-dallin-h-oaks-keys-and-authority-of-the-priesthood/)

My question is this: Accepting that our leaders do not have authority to formally ordain women at this time, do they nonetheless have authority to allow women to perform baptisms and confirmations (live and proxy), administer the sacrament, receive at the veil, and perform all other ordiances that we associate with the priesthood? If sisters can perform initiatories under the keys of the temple president, there is no logical reason why sisters cannot also perform baptisms at the temple under those same keys, or perform baptisms and administer the sacrament in their wards under the keys of the bishop, or baptize their investigators under the keys of their mission president. No special revelation or additional authority would be needed for this change because none was needed for the authorization of women to perform initiatories. Extending the principle even further, there seems to be no reason why women could not be called in bishoprics and, though not ordained themselves, act in full authority under the keys held by the bishop.

Perhaps the "ordination" discussions that have been all the rage of late should shift to discussion of how sisters can better use the authority they already have. In light of Elder Oaks' remarks, and the long-time practice of sisters performing some ordinances in the temple, I can see no reason our leaders do not have authority right now to extend an invitation for women to perform all priesthood ordinances by virtue of the keys held by others. The only thing holding them back is policy, not doctrine, and our leaders do have the authority to change policy.

*************

PS - please avoid discussion of OW in this post.

You don't seem to understand how easy it is or would be to fall into apostasy. Which is why I think it's always better for our Lord to tell us exactly how to do something, and exactly what to believe, and exactly what to do, rather than wanting us to figure things out by ourselves.

Do I really need to even mention one very prominent organization in this world that rose up in apostasy, and while believing it was and still is the true church of Jesus Christ?

[The Nehor]

I think I am going to just take a stand on the thread title and say: "No"

[stemelbow]

Not really, we could eliminate the R.S., Primary, YW, YM and still function as a Church.  We cannot eliminate Priesthood ordinances and still function.  I don't think we can really compare husband/wife/family to church operations. 

 

Define function.  A lot of church's exist without priesthood. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Relief Society is described as an appendage.  Do we refer to priesthood quorums as appendages?  Is an appendage equal in authority to the main body?

Keys and authority are 2 different things. There seems to be some conflation on that point.

[ERayR]

You don't seem to understand how easy it is or would be to fall into apostasy. Which is why I think it's always better for our Lord to tell us exactly how to do something, and exactly what to believe, and exactly what to do, rather than wanting us to figure things out by ourselves.

Do I really need to even mention one very prominent organization in this world that rose up in apostasy, and while believing it was and still is the true church of Jesus Christ?

 

It seems to me that in the narrative of the pre-mortal choices there was one where we would be told exactly what to do.  As I remember that one was rejected in favor of personal responsibility.