Freedom Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I posted this earlier but it got moved to the social hall so I am changing the title and hopefully it will stay here. Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Birthdays because each time this celebration is mentioned, bad things happen. They are: Gen 40:1-23; Matt 14:3-11; Job 1:4-19. To counter this, I am not looking to prove birthdays are good, but rather I am looking for other examples of things portrayed only in a negative light that are perhaps practiced universally today, even by Jehovah's Witnesses. My argument would be that, just because the only examples in the bible are poor ones, does not mean that they are bad, only that the bible we currently have only mention bad examples. For example are there any foods or articles of clothing (or anything else you can think of) that are only mentioned in connection with wicked practices? Or are there any other activities other than birthdays that are recorded in connection with something bad. Their argument against Christmas is that December 25th was a pagan holiday and many of the symbols associated with Christmas are pagan in origin. The argument against the date is problematic because having a date in common with a pagan holiday does not make the celebration a pagan holiday. This is like saying dogs have 4 legs, dogs are mammals, therefore all mammals have 4 legs. The symbols have the same issue. Just because some occult groups use a star in their worship, this does not mean that the use of the star is an occult practice. A sward used for war can, as an ancient prophet once said, can be turned into a plowshare. So, can anybody help me find examples of things portrayed in a negative light?
jkwilliams Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 Hmmm. Are you some kind of anti-JW? Seriously, though, why bother trying to debate/bash with the JWs. You may "win," but they'll just think they're being persecuted, so they win. It's pointless.
Freedom Posted October 22, 2013 Author Posted October 22, 2013 It is not about winning or loosing, it is about understanding. It is about helping those seeking the truth understand why this doctrine is not biblical. There are many who genuinely want to understand, and providing intelligent answers is the only way to lead to understanding. This is the point of all apologetics. To provide a sound response to criticisms.
jkwilliams Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 It is not about winning or loosing, it is about understanding. It is about helping those seeking the truth understand why this doctrine is not biblical. There are many who genuinely want to understand, and providing intelligent answers is the only way to lead to understanding. This is the point of all apologetics. To provide a sound response to criticisms. It's also the point of criticism, too. What you call apologetics or helping people understand they would likely call criticism or attack. Tread lightly.
BCSpace Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 It is about helping those seeking the truth understand why this doctrine is not biblical. I call that winning.
teddyaware Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 I posted this earlier but it got moved to the social hall so I am changing the title and hopefully it will stay here. Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Birthdays because each time this celebration is mentioned, bad things happen. They are: Gen 40:1-23; Matt 14:3-11; Job 1:4-19. To counter this, I am not looking to prove birthdays are good, but rather I am looking for other examples of things portrayed only in a negative light that are perhaps practiced universally today, even by Jehovah's Witnesses. My argument would be that, just because the only examples in the bible are poor ones, does not mean that they are bad, only that the bible we currently have only mention bad examples. For example are there any foods or articles of clothing (or anything else you can think of) that are only mentioned in connection with wicked practices? Or are there any other activities other than birthdays that are recorded in connection with something bad. Their argument against Christmas is that December 25th was a pagan holiday and many of the symbols associated with Christmas are pagan in origin. The argument against the date is problematic because having a date in common with a pagan holiday does not make the celebration a pagan holiday. This is like saying dogs have 4 legs, dogs are mammals, therefore all mammals have 4 legs. The symbols have the same issue. Just because some occult groups use a star in their worship, this does not mean that the use of the star is an occult practice. A sward used for war can, as an ancient prophet once said, can be turned into a plowshare. So, can anybody help me find examples of things portrayed in a negative light? The problem is that our Jehovah's Witnesses friends don't believe in living prophets. So much like Evangelicals, they've enshrined the Bible as the only true guide and stay when it comes to knowing and understanding the will of God. So they've gone through the Bible with a fine tooth comb, as it were, and found some obscure things that they've blown way out of proportion as a consequence of having no prophet to guide them. Celebration of birthdays is one of those forbidden items, as well as no blood transfusions because of the biblically prohibited pagan practice of drinking animal blood as a part of idolatrous worship. The main problem I've had in dialoguing with Jehovah's witnesses is that they want you to be open minded enough to read their religious materials, but they absolutely refuse to accept and read any of the LDS materials I offer them. So in other words, at least on this point, they don't believe in doing unto others as they would have others do unto them. So when they stop by I ask them if they'll read the Book of Mormon. When they say no they won't, I say I'll be willing to discuss religion with them just as soon as we can meet on equal ground. I then take the tracts they're offering that day, for later perusal, to show them I'm not afraid to expose myself to their points of view. Because of this Taliban like approach to other people's religions, I'm convinced trying to reach them will be an exercise in frustration 99.999 percent of the time.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 Hmmm. Are you some kind of anti-JW? :)Seriously, though, why bother trying to debate/bash with the JWs. You may "win," but they'll just think they're being persecuted, so they win. It's pointless.I have never known a JW who posts here.
jkwilliams Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 I have never known a JW who posts here. Obviously, but "Freedom" is preparing for battle elsewhere, it seems.
Rivers Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 Hmmm. Are you some kind of anti-JW? Seriously, though, why bother trying to debate/bash with the JWs. You may "win," but they'll just think they're being persecuted, so they win. It's pointless.It's the same with Mormons.
Freedom Posted October 22, 2013 Author Posted October 22, 2013 Obviously, but "Freedom" is preparing for battle elsewhere, it seems. I am sorry that you look at life this way, but most of us do not go to battle, we seek to teach. perhaps you need to stop viewing others through your own dark glasses.
jkwilliams Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 I am sorry that you look at life this way, but most of us do not go to battle, we seek to teach. perhaps you need to stop viewing others through your own dark glasses. I'm just saying that, in my experience, proof-texting with JWs never turns out well, no matter how good your intentions.
Freedom Posted October 22, 2013 Author Posted October 22, 2013 It's also the point of criticism, too. What you call apologetics or helping people understand they would likely call criticism or attack. Tread lightly. The same can be said about born again evangelical Christians, Catholics, atheists and many other groups who have different views than ours. The whole point of mormondialogue is to answer such questions. There are, believe it or not, those out there who are Mormons and who are being taught by JW's and genuinely want to know the answer to such questions because they are confused themselves. Apologetics has never been about attacking other religions, but helping those who are being presented with these teachings understand them in context of our faith.
Freedom Posted October 22, 2013 Author Posted October 22, 2013 I'm just saying that, in my experience, proof-texting with JWs never turns out well, no matter how good your intentions. That is why I don't do it.
jkwilliams Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 That is why I don't do it. Trying to show that something is "not biblical" will likely involve some proof-texting. It's not cynical or evidence of "dark glasses" to say that this probably won't turn out well.
jkwilliams Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 The same can be said about born again evangelical Christians, Catholics, atheists and many other groups who have different views than ours. The whole point of mormondialogue is to answer such questions. There are, believe it or not, those out there who are Mormons and who are being taught by JW's and genuinely want to know the answer to such questions because they are confused themselves. Apologetics has never been about attacking other religions, but helping those who are being presented with these teachings understand them in context of our faith. Well, if you're trying to help fellow LDS, that requires a different approach, obviously. For whatever reason, you seem to think that pointing out the reality of discussing things with JWs is an attack on you; it's not. If it was me, I'd simply ask what kind of person they want to be: someone who treats the Bible as a set of hard and fast rules, or one who believes that God will guide you if you ask. As I recall, I was told by the JWs that it was wrong to pray to God for guidance about what is true and what is right. To me, they were making a God of checklists, not revelation.
Freedom Posted October 22, 2013 Author Posted October 22, 2013 So back to the original question: Can anybody help me find examples of things portrayed in the bible in a negative light that is not considered bad today?
jkwilliams Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 So back to the original question: Can anybody help me find examples of things portrayed in the bible in a negative light that is not considered bad today? You mean like eating shellfish?
jkwilliams Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 Worshiping on Sundays, getting divorced, women speaking in church. Lots of stuff.
Freedom Posted October 22, 2013 Author Posted October 22, 2013 Not teachings, as with birthdays, I am looking for things mentioned in passing.
jkwilliams Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 Not teachings, as with birthdays, I am looking for things mentioned in passing. Again, I wouldn't concern myself with these teachings extrapolated from the Bible but would simply ask your LDS friends whether they think God wants them to live by a bunch of manmade rules or wants them to be happy and seek His guidance in all things. If your friends are rule-seekers, there's not much you can do to help them. The JW religion is attractive to people like that.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 So back to the original question: Can anybody help me find examples of things portrayed in the bible in a negative light that is not considered bad today?The best "birthday" was when Jesus Christ was born. If you desire a teaching moment...Billions around the world has birthday parties with no beheading and do not wish harm on anyone.
Freedom Posted October 22, 2013 Author Posted October 22, 2013 The best "birthday" was when Jesus Christ was born. If you desire a teaching moment...Billions around the world has birthday parties with no beheading and do not wish harm on anyone.But of course my question wasn't about birthdays but rather about other examples of anything mentioned in a negative light to show that, just because something is portrayed in a negative light this does not mean that God feels it is bad. We do not allow threads that target other religions.
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