bu11fr0g Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I am very bothered by Martin MacNeill who is on trial for murder. He had multiple affairs, forgeries, probable murder, faked religious experiences. He was predatory in at least some of his sexual misbehavior including molesting a daughter. He had been called to be bishop and had issued multiple callings and ordained multiple people. Is any modicum of worthiness necessary?Is there any inspiration in his callings or his being called?
Kenngo1969 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) Yes. I wouldn't necessarily blame a lack of discernment on the part of leaders responsible for issuing calls that someone accused of what MacNeill has been accused of received the callings he did. If I'm not worthy to accept a particular call, it's my responsibility to bring that fact to the person extending the call, it's not his responsibility to discern my unworthiness and to not issue the call as a consequence. I've seen the discernment involved in issuing callings (and in other things requiring Heaven's inspiration in the Church of Jesus Christ) to discount it. Are my leaders perfect? No; far from it, and they'll be the first to admit that. Left to their own devices, there is no way that even the most capable of them would be able to perform their callings. And the vast majority of them are called of God. Are people in the Church of Jesus Christ hurt because people who should not do so accept callings anyway? Unfortunately, yes. I don't wish to minimize the adverse consequences that sometimes result from such occurrences. Is it fair that people sometimes must deal with those consequences? No. But that's what the Atonement of Jesus Christ is for. Not that working through such consequences is easy, even with the Atonement. But that is what the Atonement is for: not only is it for people who need forgiveness, it's for people who need healing from what needs to be forgiven. Edited October 21, 2013 by Kenngo1969
CV75 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I am very bothered by Martin MacNeill who is on trial for murder. He had multiple affairs, forgeries, probable murder, faked religious experiences. He was predatory in at least some of his sexual misbehavior including molesting a daughter. He had been called to be bishop and had issued multiple callings and ordained multiple people.Is any modicum of worthiness necessary?Is there any inspiration in his callings or his being called?We might also assume and speculate greater horrors that might have been commited had he had no Church involvement at all. But certainly mistakes can be made, which by are the unintended and unexpected exceptions to the norm.
Duncan Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 i too have had a few erring Bishops and I wonder about it too. Does God honour the blessings they give out? if he does then why bother being worthy if God has to honour whatever you say?
Senator Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 We might also assume and speculate greater horrors that might have been commited had he had no Church involvement at all. What's that supposed to mean?
canard78 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 If this is currently on trial then we probably need to be careful about how this is discussed. 1
canard78 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 We might also assume and speculate greater horrors that might have been commited had he had no Church involvement at all. But certainly mistakes can be made, which by are the unintended and unexpected exceptions to the norm. Of course, because people who are not members of this church have absolutely no moral compass right? 1
bu11fr0g Posted October 21, 2013 Author Posted October 21, 2013 If this is currently on trial then we probably need to be careful about how this is discussed.Everything but the murder is admitted from my reading.
bu11fr0g Posted October 21, 2013 Author Posted October 21, 2013 Judas.But we don't hear about Judas being grossly unworthy before being called and we don't hear about Judas making callings, performing miracles, etc. after the betrayal. 2
CV75 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 What's that supposed to mean?The first line of consideration is that he is presumed innocent until proven guilty. If we ignore that, then we can speculate any permutation of guilt/innocence and inspiration/stupor (I just chose that one--where he is gulity but the calling inspired). If there real question is, “does God inspire murderers or potential or future murderers to be called into bishoprics?” then of course He does; we all fall into one of those categories.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) i too have had a few erring Bishops and I wonder about it too. Does God honour the blessings they give out? if he does then why bother being worthy if God has to honour whatever you say?All of your Bishops have been "erring Bishops" to one degree or another. While I'm not condoning anything MacNeill has done or has been accused of, if perfection is the standard, then no one is "qualified" to be a Bishop. The very definition of mercy is what God gives to us, even though we don't deserve it. (I'm not promoting an "Eat, drink, and be merry, for God's going to bless us anyway" attitude. I'm simply saying that if God were to give us only what we deserve, most of us would get few, if any, blessings.) Edited October 21, 2013 by Kenngo1969 2
CV75 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 Of course, because people who are not members of this church have absolutely no moral compass right?No, because that is how my example of speculation went. Now, speaking for yourself, are you a murderer, or potential or future murderer? Do you have a calling?
FriedofJesus Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 i too have had a few erring Bishops and I wonder about it too. Does God honour the blessings they give out? if he does then why bother being worthy if God has to honour whatever you say?According to the Bible we will never be worthy enough. That is why Jesus took our place. He did what we could never do. 1
halconero Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) But we don't hear about Judas being grossly unworthy before being called and we don't hear about Judas making callings, performing miracles, etc. after the betrayal.70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. It seems as though Jesus knew the type of person he was calling when he chose Judas. Aside from the betrayal, the Gospels also mention him stealing church funds during his time as an apostle. It would not be a stretch to say that during this time period he performed blessings, cast out demons, and effectuated other ordinances. Edited October 21, 2013 by halconero
Kenngo1969 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765625385/Confessions-of-a-Mormon-bishop.html Food for thought. 1
Duncan Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 According to the Bible we will never be worthy enough. That is why Jesus took our place. He did what we could never do. I get that but what about unrepentant people called into being Bishops or people who beat, cheat on their wife, or molest their kids whilst serving? among other indiscretions
Senator Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 The first line of consideration is that he is presumed innocent until proven guilty. If we ignore that, then we can speculate any permutation of guilt/innocence and inspiration/stupor (I just chose that one--where he is gulity but the calling inspired). If there real question is, “does God inspire murderers or potential or future murderers to be called into bishoprics?” then of course He does; we all fall into one of those categories. I'm sorry, I'm not following you at all. I don't see what you are saying has anything to do with you original statement.
daz2 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I don't believe we are ever too far from God to be blocked from receiving and accepting God's grace and even inspiration. I do think that the peace that comes from repenting and striving to do right helps put our minds and hearts in a better frame to sense connection with God and others, which in turn can help us in pronouncing blessings say those things most in line with what God would want us to say--things motivated by love, care, hope and faith. Elder Oaks said in conference that in giving an anointing and blessing the words of blessing are not nearly as important as the fact that the anointing and sealing take place for the blessing of the sick. He acknowledged that even when we are striving to do right sometimes our words feel more prompted by the spirit than at other times. And that our words of blessing do not bind God or necessarily change God's will. An "unworthy" priesthood holder still has authority to perform those ordinances, which God will recognize, although the words spoken may not carry the same power were he repenting properly and striving to do right.
canard78 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 No, because that is how my example of speculation went. Now, speaking for yourself, are you a murderer, or potential or future murderer? Do you have a calling? Yes, yes, no... bother!!! Got me! Here come the blaring sirens.
bu11fr0g Posted October 21, 2013 Author Posted October 21, 2013 The first line of consideration is that he is presumed innocent until proven guilty. If we ignore that, then we can speculate any permutation of guilt/innocence and inspiration/stupor (I just chose that one--where he is gulity but the calling inspired). If there real question is, “does God inspire murderers or potential or future murderers to be called into bishoprics?” then of course He does; we all fall into one of those categories.Although not suspected of murder at that time, he was a sexual abuser and fraudulent.
rpn Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I would think it would be hard to be really wicked and a faithful and useful bishop at the same time, just because the ability to mock God in that way would prevent you from believing foundational gospel things too (the wicked never think that a calling could be inspired and invitation to correct themselves and/or the way God will ultimately hold them accountable, rather than His not knowing).
CV75 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 Although not suspected of murder at that time, he was a sexual abuser and fraudulent.So is your question, "How can an active sexual abuser and a fraud be given a bishop's calling in the Church?"
Duncan Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 So is your question, "How can an active sexual abuser and a fraud be given a bishop's calling in the Church?" some people are excellent liars! they can fool anyone and play the game, obviously they'll get it in the next life when they escaped church authorities here. Speaking for me personally if I had known then what I do now things would have been different, let me tellya!
Kenngo1969 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 So is your question, "How can an active sexual abuser and a fraud be given a bishop's calling in the Church?"It takes two for a calling in the Church to be accomplished, one to extend it and one to accept it. Some of us are really good at rationalization and compartmentalization: "Sure, there are some things seriously wrong with some aspects of my life, but that doesn't need to/will not affect how I perform my Church calling."
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