So How Do I Tell Which Parts Of Ordinances Are Sacred And Eternal?

[mfbukowski]

That sounds somewhat Catholic in tone to me.

Well at least its not tri-corner hats with bags at the ends.

[Tacenda]

MF I feel that spirit everytime with the ladies at the veil and during the session. They are so sweet and understanding at the veil when I am slow at the end and forget some things.

I like what you've said so far about ordinances. It's so tough knowing what I know, like things that to me were wrong in the church and make me want to leave, but people like you have to remind me of certain things, that make me stay.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Tacenda

[Stone holm]

Well at least its not tri-corner hats with bags at the ends.

I hold too much respect for the Catholics I know to put them amongst that crowd.

[janderich]

No, they are "real" - there is a real washing away of sins and a real endowment of power but not because you took a bath or made some gestures in the temple.

 

Those blessings come because you have done what God wanted you to do.

If he wanted you to do some pushups or stand on your head, the results would be just as real.

Agreed. We are not endowed with power simply by going through the forms. A person steeped in sin does not receive the Holy Ghost simply by being baptized and having hands placed on their head. Such symbols are a means, not an end. Enter covenants, if we keep the covenant we receive the blessing. One who honors covenants gives the symbols meaning in their lives.

 

That is why their is some "room" when performing ordinances. Again, my concern is that some symbols have been changed to meet the worlds current accepted standards. In so doing, the meaning has been obscured. This does not invalidate them. It just makes it harder to see how to proceed on our spiritual journey. Of course this is the reason for all the symbols in the first place. The world, including some temple attending saints, are not prepared to receive in plainness what God would give them. My worry is that the symbols have bee obscured because we are less prepared as a people. If so, this is a sad trend. 

[teddyaware]

MF I feel that spirit everytime with the ladies at the veil and during the session. They are so sweet and understanding at the veil when I am slow at the end and forget some things.

I like what you've said so far about ordinances. It's so tough knowing what I know, like things that to me were wrong in the church and make me want to leave, but people like you have to remind me of certain things, that make me stay.

Sooner or later (hopefully sooner), the closet doubters of the Church are going to find out that the vast majority of those things they think are "wrong with the Church" actually are correct and in harmony with the will of God. God always tests the faith of His saints with hard things, difficult to be understood unless those things are seen with the eye of living faith. A study of the attitudes and behaviors of Laman and Lemuel should be sufficient to demonstrate that things that seem to be false and irrational to the mind of the natural man are very often actually true.

"For he spoke many great things unto them, which were hard to be understood, save a man should enquire of the Lord; and they being hard in their hearts, therefore they did not look unto the Lord as they should." 1 Nephi 15:3

Edited October 20, 2013 by teddyaware

[CV75]

The real bottom line is that while they may have symbolism and they may not be magic spells, completing ordinances correctly bring actual blessings and spiritual power from our Heavenly Father.  If not "performed" as he establishes them he has no reason to honor the connected blessings.

The other ingredient being, of course, ratification by the Holy Spirit—hence the warnings against being baptized or partaking of the sacrament unworthily and instead to do these things with an eye single to God’s glory. For example, “…after thou hast been baptized by water, which if you do with an eye single to my glory, you shall have a remission of your sins and a reception of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands…” (D&C 55:1; see also 27:2).

 

And yet another ingredient being, of course, the Lord's mercy and grace in case anything gets done incorrectly by accident by those performing the ordinances with proper authority and pure intent.

[mfbukowski]

Agreed. We are not endowed with power simply by going through the forms. A person steeped in sin does not receive the Holy Ghost simply by being baptized and having hands placed on their head. Such symbols are a means, not an end. Enter covenants, if we keep the covenant we receive the blessing. One who honors covenants gives the symbols meaning in their lives.

 

That is why their is some "room" when performing ordinances. Again, my concern is that some symbols have been changed to meet the worlds current accepted standards. In so doing, the meaning has been obscured. This does not invalidate them. It just makes it harder to see how to proceed on our spiritual journey. Of course this is the reason for all the symbols in the first place. The world, including some temple attending saints, are not prepared to receive in plainness what God would give them. My worry is that the symbols have bee obscured because we are less prepared as a people. If so, this is a sad trend. 

Symbols are a language, and if you think about it, language is nothing but symbols.

 

We no longer speak ancient Egyptian, nor do we understand their culture.  It just stands to reason that we should worship in English (or whatever your personal modern language is)

 

We pray in English, we think as moderns, actually post-moderns, and our symbols need to reflect the current culture.  It is the context that gives symbols meaning.

 

I do not read hieroglyphics, so  why should I pray in them?  Those symbols, ancient as they may be, have no meaning for me.

 

I grew up going to Mass in Latin.  It was wonderful to be part of such an ancient rite, but I didn't understand a word of it.  I don't mean to disrespect anyone but for me it was "mumbo jumbo" because then I did not know Latin.

 

We need to have ordinances which communicate to us, and which have meaning for this time, not ancient times.

[thesometimesaint]

No you left out marriage.

 

Marriage however nice is not a requirement. See Sister Sheri Dew.

[Robert F. Smith]

Well at least its not tri-corner hats with bags at the ends.

Oft times, I think I see nuns walking the halls of my LDS temple.  Don't you?

[Robert F. Smith]

janderich, on 20 Oct 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

.........................................................................    

 

That is why their is some "room" when performing ordinances. Again, my concern is that some symbols have been changed to meet the worlds current accepted standards. In so doing, the meaning has been obscured. This does not invalidate them. It just makes it harder to see how to proceed on our spiritual journey. Of course this is the reason for all the symbols in the first place. The world, including some temple attending saints, are not prepared to receive in plainness what God would give them. My worry is that the symbols have bee obscured because we are less prepared as a people. If so, this is a sad trend. 

Symbols are a language, and if you think about it, language is nothing but symbols.

 

We no longer speak ancient Egyptian, nor do we understand their culture.  It just stands to reason that we should worship in English (or whatever your personal modern language is)

 

We pray in English, we think as moderns, actually post-moderns, and our symbols need to reflect the current culture.  It is the context that gives symbols meaning.

 

I do not read hieroglyphics, so  why should I pray in them?  Those symbols, ancient as they may be, have no meaning for me.

 

I grew up going to Mass in Latin.  It was wonderful to be part of such an ancient rite, but I didn't understand a word of it.  I don't mean to disrespect anyone but for me it was "mumbo jumbo" because then I did not know Latin.

 

We need to have ordinances which communicate to us, and which have meaning for this time, not ancient times.

Abraham, Melchizedek, Isaac, and Jacob lived at a time when the Mosaic Code was not in effect, yet they certainly knew how to make a covenant, and they knew how to make offerings and tithes.

 

The forms that the ordinances take vary through time, but are always equally effective when administered by the eternal priesthood.  The Church, on the other hand, changes through time in order to best serve those who need to understand the Plan of Salvation.  We need to understand that the forms of worship and the symbols used can be culturally based, yet very effective.

 

Indeed, biblical scholars analyze the particular forms which worship and ordinances take (especially covenant formation) so as to place them in chronological context.  For both secular and religious covenants have much in common, and change through time such that biblical texts can be dated according to them -- this is especially true of King Benjamin's Speech.as a covenant formulary.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[BCSpace]

How do we know which parts of ordinances are unchangeable and eternal, and which parts are just part of administrative necessity?

 

One might never know until something is changed. 

 

 

But the interesting thing about that is while text and practice sometimes change, what doctrine (and therefore eternal principle) has changed?  there has been virtually no change anywhere as far as I can tell, the exceptions being the adding or expounding of doctrine such as D&C 138.  Regarding say, changes in the wording of the temple ceremony, I haven't noticed any change in doctrine since the mid 80's when I became cognizant of them.

Edited October 22, 2013 by BCSpace

[Stone holm]

Marriage however nice is not a requirement. See Sister Sheri Dew.

Eternal marriage in this life or the next is required for exaltation, those who choose not to be in such cannot achieve Exaltation although they may make the Celestial Kingdom.