A Starting Point....initialized.

[tana]

I'm curious as to what exactly set apart the N.ew R.estored G.ospel according to J. Smith, from the A.bominable C.hurches he was instructed not to associate with....at it's moment of inception? Before all the added revelation of the D&C and P. of G.P.

Part Two: What is the connection between the Book of Mormon. and the new restored gospel? What principles did the BoM. bring to the game that set the N.R.G. apart from the A.C.'s? Why did God need to introduce the N.R.G. and the BoM. at the same time?

My first instinct is....The BoM was/is intended to be evidence for our intellect. E.g., Uneducated farm boy produces work of wonder.

Part three: God appears to like to provide some evidence for our intellect, but not too much. E.g., To provide evidence for the N.R.G., he introduces the Book of Mormon. To provide evidence for the Book of Mormon., he introduces the golden plates, (kinda) To provide evidence for the golden plates he introduces the witnesses. To provide evidence for the witnesses he introduces.......the scripture " In the mouths of two or three witnesses". To provide evidence for this scripture, he introduces...?

 

So, I'm looking for a starting point. God appears to want to placate mans desire for this by providing the witnesses.....So therefore god must understand that we need some basis, some starting point for our intellect to grab on to.

This isn't a starting point: J. Smith saying so, witnesses saying J.Smith says so, other witnesses saying these witnesses say so.

This would be hard evidence for a starting point: The gold plates are in the Smithsonian.....and R.eformed E.gyptologists confirm the translation. The ark is found with raccoonosaur bones in the keel. The prophet  prophesies....correctly.....something like that.

Edited September 29, 2013 by tana

[Kenngo1969]

I think it's much simpler than that. The Book of Mormon is simply evidence of Joseph Smith's prophetic calling. My $0.02, actual value $0.0175375187509375.

[tana]

I think it's much simpler than that. The Book of Mormon is simply evidence of Joseph Smith's prophetic calling. My $0.02, actual value $0.0175375187509375.

I appreciate the input, but I see it only as evidence that God wants to provide evidence.....but I still don't see a starting point.

[Freedom]

You would have to provide some doctrinal basis to support the idea that God provides evidence. The Book of Mormon restored doctrine. To say its only purpose was to show that God can have an uneducated farm boy perform a miracle, He could have used much more simple methods than to have an entire civilisation exist for two thousand years and then go through all the challenges of getting the book published. AS for what set it apart from other religions, all you have to do is read the 13 articles of faith.

[tana]

You would have to provide some doctrinal basis to support the idea that God provides evidence.

Do you not think that it was God's idea to provide the BoM witnesses?

[tana]

. AS for what set it apart from other religions, all you have to do is read the 13 articles of faith.

As I look at the AoF., the only thing I see that really sets the NRG. apart from the AC's is article # 5.

My take on that tho is, it is implied that we use our intellect/reasoning to deduce that this must be the true church....because it resembles the teachings of the bible in that the priesthood authority must have a starting point.

But....the starting point for the LDS. priesthood authority rests only on the claim of J.Smith....and co.

[Maidservant]

Perhaps our heavenly Father actually wanted to share what was written on the gold plates with the wider world of today since this people (loosely termed Nephites and Lamanites) have such a magnificent story and magnificent testimonies that it would be a shame to lose that forever.

 

There are also some spots in the Book of Mormon that express the hopes that the writers of the Book of Mormon had for the futurity of their words (see Enos, is the only place I recall; but perhaps something Mormon said as he was abridging; or how about Alma's desire to speak with the voice of an angel-ta da! now he can).

 

Perhaps our heavenly Father actually wanted his children to realize that there are more nations than one and that all are God's children, and that God's words do not have an end (inside one book, i.e. the Bible).

 

Perhaps our heavenly Father actually wanted our hearts to be changed by the exquisite testimonies of Jesus Christ and his mission that are expressed in the pages of the Book of Mormon.

 

The purposes of the Book of Mormon are in the title page and also in D & C 20 I think explains some purposes, I may have that wrong.  These may be worth a study .

[Doug the Hutt]

You would have to provide some doctrinal basis to support the idea that God provides evidence. The Book of Mormon restored doctrine. To say its only purpose was to show that God can have an uneducated farm boy perform a miracle, He could have used much more simple methods than to have an entire civilisation exist for two thousand years and then go through all the challenges of getting the book published. AS for what set it apart from other religions, all you have to do is read the 13 articles of faith.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=9e15ff3ff4c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=e36d5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/1-kgs/18

Edited September 29, 2013 by Doug the Hutt

[Avatar4321]

1) The Book of Mormon. The Priesthood. Revelation from on High.

 

2) The Book of Mormon was to provide further evidence that would convince both Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ and show to the House of Israel that God does still remember the covenants He has made with their fathers. 

 

3) The Lord is trying to convince people to come to Him. The Holy Spirit will reveal that the Book of Mormon is true. The only reason I know the Book of Mormon is true is the witness from the Holy Spirit. The other evidence is always interesting, but the only way to know is to go to God and ask in faith. That is what He is trying to establish with the people. He is trying to get them to come to Him and learn. If He provided so much evidence that no one would have to ask and rely on Him, how would that serve His purposes?

[theplains]

2) The Book of Mormon was to provide further evidence that would convince both Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ and show to the House of Israel that God does still remember the covenants He has made with their fathers. 

 

The title page says, "And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ,

the Eternal God".  But somehow the teaching that he was an eternal intelligence, then became

the first spirit child of heavenly parents, then progressed into a God crept into some people's

theological beliefs. The Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, says in

chapter 4 that he reached Godhood on the basis of intelligence. "By obedience and devotion

to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord

Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state".

 

Regards,

Jim

[tana]

 

3) The Lord is trying to convince people to come to Him. The Holy Spirit will reveal that the Book of Mormon is true. The only reason I know the Book of Mormon is true is the witness from the Holy Spirit. The other evidence is always interesting, but the only way to know is to go to God and ask in faith. That is what He is trying to establish with the people. He is trying to get them to come to Him and learn. If He provided so much evidence that no one would have to ask and rely on Him, how would that serve His purposes?

 

 

I think that personal testimonies should be set aside in this thread for a couple of reasons;

1. This thread is attempting to locate intellectual evidence.

2. If I were to say that I have asked god in faith and got nada.....the standard LDS. response would be; you didn't try hard enough. (No true Scotsman)

3. I have no reason to ask god if the BoM is true any more than I do to ask if the Koran or The Lord of the Rings is true. All hard evidence I see points to the lot being works of fiction.

What is your favorite piece of intellectual evidence that the BoM is non-fiction?

Edited October 2, 2013 by tana

[Avatar4321]

I think that personal testimonies should be set aside in this thread for a couple of reasons;

1. This thread is attempting to locate intellectual evidence.

2. If I were to say that I have asked god in faith and got nada.....the standard LDS. response would be; you didn't try hard enough. (No true Scotsman)

3. I have no reason to ask god if the BoM is true any more than I do to ask if the Koran or The Lord of the Rings is true. All hard evidence I see points to the lot being works of fiction.

What is your favorite piece of intellectual evidence that the BoM is non-fiction?

 

In other words, you would prefer to discuss things that will never get you the answers you seek. That is certainly your perogative. But how useful is that to your Eternal well being?

[tana]

In other words, you would prefer to discuss things that will never get you the answers you seek. That is certainly your perogative. But how useful is that to your Eternal well being?

The thing is, there have been soo many threads over the years dealing with the testimony. I was shooting for this thread to take a look at the information the testimony is testifying of.

Testimonies are for verifying the veracity of certain information...right? But first, one needs some information. One doesn't take just any information to the kneeling corner tho....right?  One doesn't ask god if the story of Santa Clause is true. One needs reasonably solid, not-illogical information to start with right?

So, what is this starting intellectual information we (LDS) have?......J. Smith says he saw God, and God told him to tell us....

 

 

By the way, I have found many of the answers I seek.....thru intellectual study of the sciences.

[danieldemol]

2) The Book of Mormon was to provide further evidence that would convince both Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ and show to the House of Israel that God does still remember the covenants He has made with their fathers.

How much success did Joseph Smith have convincing Jews to believe in Jesus?

Baha'u'llah convinced thousands of Jews to believe in Jesus in His own life time

[bluebell]

How much success did Joseph Smith have convincing Jews to believe in Jesus?

Baha'u'llah convinced thousands of Jews to believe in Jesus in His own life time

The BOM uses the term "Jew" to speak about the entire house of Israel, not just those from the tribe of Judah or who self identify as Jewish.

[Flyonthewall]

I'm not sure God provides "solid evidence" too often. We are put here to live by faith, so the consistent evidence He provides is the Holy Ghost, which would not be a part of your "solid evidence".

He may provide tools for us to use to find Him, such as the BoM, but it is faith and the Holy Ghost that are the "solid evidence" He provides.

[Jude2]

Part Two: What is the connection between the Book of Mormon. and the new restored gospel? What principles did the BoM. bring to the game that set the N.R.G. apart from the A.C.'s? Why did God need to introduce the N.R.G. and the BoM. at the same time?

 

 

 

 

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things..." Mor 10 

[tana]

I'm not sure God provides "solid evidence" too often. We are put here to live by faith, so the consistent evidence He provides is the Holy Ghost, which would not be a part of your "solid evidence".

He may provide tools for us to use to find Him, such as the BoM, but it is faith and the Holy Ghost that are the "solid evidence" He provides.

let's say a person is a perfect model of morals and ethics. Has minimal ego, no biases, no agenda. Seeks only for the truth. Yet, the Holy Ghost isn't confirming to him that the LDS church is true. Why would that be?

[Flyonthewall]

let's say a person is a perfect model of morals and ethics. Has minimal ego, no biases, no agenda. Seeks only for the truth. Yet, the Holy Ghost isn't confirming to him that the LDS church is true. Why would that be?

That is the $64k question, and I suspect there is an answer for each person that feels it has happened to.

I don't think there is one answer that fits all, but a specific answer as unique as the person that wants it.

[tana]

That is the $64k question, and I suspect there is an answer for each person that feels it has happened to.

I don't think there is one answer that fits all, but a specific answer as unique as the person that wants it.

I've actually never been all that clear on what exactly the HG is. Particle, or wave? Is it a separate, isolated to itself entity....with some sort of dynamic influence? Or, is it a physical mechanical force.... like gravity....or something consisting of 'more fine matter'?

Either way, it's interaction in our life/minds must be mechanical. It must follow rules. It cannot be making judgement decisions based on it's opinion. It must follow an algorithm.

Edited October 12, 2013 by tana