Foundational Doctrine Must Change For Women To Be Ordained

[Senator]

Another thing: Receiving the Melchizedek Priesthood is a saving ordinance for men in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

 

CFR

 

 

I'm learning all kinds of new stuff....

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Or .... it could be that we haven't known the will of the Lord all along and we're finally open to more blessings.  It all depends on whether you think we've "arrived" at perfection yet.

Or you are just using wishful thinking in trying to change something that can't be changed.

[DBMormon]

What if Women had some other power central to Heavenly Mother that allowed them to jointly participate in things like blessings and healings?

If we don't think Heavenly Mother has some divine power that would seem silly

Edited September 26, 2013 by DBMormon

[Senator]

Or you are just using wishful thinking in trying to change something that can't be changed.

 

I wonder if the Prophet Joseph was ever told that?

 

I think he might have replied with:

 

" I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions."

[Kenngo1969]

Or .... it could be that we haven't known the will of the Lord all along and we're finally open to more blessings.  It all depends on whether you think we've "arrived" at perfection yet.

What part of Omniscient and Omnipotent do you not understand?  Do you really think the Lord is up there, overlooking his creation and saying to himself, "Fall?  Check!  Atonement?  Check!  Prophesied apostasy?  Check!  Restoration?  Check!  Ordaining women to the Priesthood?  Dang!    I knew there was something I forgot!  I better get right on that!"

[Buckeye]

You talk as though there was virtual unanimity among leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with respect to the implications of the Priesthood ban ... until right before it was lifted in 1978.  There was not.  There was always a contingent of Brethren who believed the ban wasn't permanent.  Not so with respect to the prospect of ordaining women.  God love Elder McConkie, but I don't care what people (even such people as Elder McConkie) believed before June 9, 1978.  God love Brother Brigham.  He said a lot of great things, but in order to proclaim the Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he would need to do so as a member of the unanimous First Presidency and/or as a member of the unanimous Quorum of the Fifteen Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

 

I agree there was not unanimity.  But for whatever reason, President Grant and his counselors thought they had the power to declare church doctrine in 1949.  Whether they actually had the power we can debate on another thread, but they certainly thought they did because they said "this is doctrine."

 

Getting back to your original thought, though, what makes you think there are not any current church leaders who are open to female ordination?  Somebody is pushing through changes such as women praying in conference.  Just because they haven't publicly spoken in support of female ordination doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Kenngo1969]

CFR

 

 

I'm learning all kinds of new stuff....

OK.  I'll bite: I misspoke, and I'll edit my earlier comment.  It may not be a saving ordinance, but it is necessary for exaltation.

[Senator]

Have fun steadying the ark!   I think the Lord is able to do His own work.

 

 

Ahhhh........there it is.  I was beginning to wonder if a drought was upon us.

[Buckeye]

What part of Omniscient and Omnipotent do you not understand?  Do you really think the Lord is up there, overlooking his creation and saying to himself, "Fall?  Check!  Atonement?  Check!  Prophesied apostasy?  Check!  Restoration?  Check!  Ordaining women to the Priesthood?  Dang!    I knew there was something I forgot!  I better get right on that!"

 

Actually, I don't know anything about omniscience.  And I rather doubt anyone on this board does either.  God hasn't "forgotten" anything.  But there is plenty he has left to reveal (see AOF 9).  We're not waiting on him to come around.  He's patiently waiting on us.

[Buckeye]

Have fun steadying the ark!   I think the Lord is able to do His own work.

 

Oddly, I haven't been struck dead yet.  So either I'm not steadying the ark or God somehow lost some power. 

 

Of course God can do his own work.  But for some reason he chooses to work through us.  The "work" is not getting doctrine "right."  The work is getting us to see things right.  And that depends just as much on our efforts as His.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Buckeye

[Buckeye]

What if Women had some other power central to Heavenly Mother that allowed them to jointly participate in things like blessings and healings?

If we don't think Heavenly Mother has some divine power that would seem silly

 

That would be awesome. I would love a revelation regarding HM. But I rather doubt one will come so long as we are only speaking about Her, rather than speaking to Her. I'm not advocating for prayer to Her, but I really can't see how we can ever know Her without talking to Her. Could we know the Father without speaking to Him?

[CV75]

I'm not advocating for prayer to Her, but I really can't see how we can ever know Her without talking to Her.

Have you tried this? If so, what is the outcome? If not, why?

[Buckeye]

Have you tried this? If so, what is the outcome? If not, why?

 

Again, I'm not advocating it.  But it's a delimma I can't resolve.  We can learn a lot about someone from others.  But we can never know that person without interacting with them.  The church teaches us to pray only to Father.  But as more and more women express a desire to know Mother (including especially many women who do not desire ordination), I believe we will eventually have to face this delimma head on.

 

But that's another thread.  Let's keep this one on female ordination's affect on doctrine.

[CV75]

Again, I'm not advocating it.

I know that; I'm just asking if you've tried it and what happened; and if not, why not?

 

I'm thinking that any good husband well represents his wife, and vice-versa.

[DBMormon]

Steadying the Ark - "A negative term that a disgruntled person says to someone who has an opinion different then yourself, and you disagree strongly with their stance"

 

All revelation comes from questions.  Not just questions Prophets ask God, but Questions people ask Prophets, or people ask God to impart knowledge to prophets.  Almost every change in this Church in terms of programs started with a Bottom up method.  A ward starts something in place A.  People in place B, C, D see it works so well they implement it.  Sooner or later top leadership become aware and test it in various areas and then if it works well, it is adopted Church wide. (does not apply to PH to women but simply showing revelation can also work bottom up)

 

So unless someone here outwardly demands change rather then simply discussing it, Ark-Steadier is an inappropriate term that says more about the user then the one being called names.

Edited September 26, 2013 by DBMormon

[Buckeye]

I know that; I'm just asking if you've tried it and what happened; and if not, why not?

 

I'm thinking that any good husband well represents his wife, and vice-versa.

 

My father is a great representative for my mother, but he's still not her.  My relationship with my mother would be much less than it is if I only knew of her through my father.  Likewise, if HM really exists, then at some point I will want to talk to Her and interact with Her.  I have yet to meet anyone who believes She will stay hidden through the eternities.  So at some point, we will speak (pray?) to her.  It's just a question of when. 

 

As far as my current practice goes, I do offer this public prayer to HM at least a few times each year.  Usually in sacrament meeting on mother's day.

 

When I leave this frail existence,

When I lay this mortal by,

Father, Mother, may I meet you

In your royal courts on high?

Then, at length, when I've completed

All you sent me forth to do,

With your mutual approbation

Let me come and dwell with you.

 

[LordUther]

Women will never be ordained to the priesthood. Why? Because they don't need it, they never have they never will.

 

I as a man to be considered a full member of the church must hold the priesthood, a women doesn't.

 

I as a man to go on a mission must hold the priesthood, a woman doesn't.

 

I as a man to enter the Temple must hold the priesthood, a women doesn't.

 

I as a man if my child is sick must hold the priesthood to lay my hands upon that child's to bless it, it's mother doesn't!

 

I as a man to hold a calling within this church must hold the priesthood, a woman doesn't!

 

I as man must hold the priesthood to be called to serve in the Temple and officiate the ordinances within, a woman can perform those priesthood ordinances without being ordained to the priesthood! How? Because she doesn't need it!

 

A woman who has received her Second Anointing is anointed a Priestess and yet is not ordained to the priesthood, how? Because she doesn't need it!

 

Women do not need the priesthood. One of the most pernicious evils that feminism spreads is that a woman is incomplete unless she can do all that a man can do. This is like telling a banana that it can only be fulfilled as a banana by being an apple. A woman is fulfilled by being a woman. The Relief Society was formed "after the order of the priesthood" to give women that level of equality. The men had an organisation specifically for them and so did the women. Women do not need the priesthood and will never be ordained to it.

[Billy the Law]

This Ordain Women movement needs a refresher course in Church doctrine. The reason women can't hold the priesthood is because during the pre-mortal war in Heaven there were those that opposed Jesus, those that fought valiantly with Him, and those who supported Him but were less valiant or kind of sat on the fence. As it turns out, all women were fence-sitters. As a consequence to their apathy they are born through the line of Eve (a women who showed her lack of valiance by following satan and partaking of the fruit) and are denied the blessing of holding the priesthood. Brigham Young and many early leaders taught this clearly, and Bruce R McConkie even included it in Mormon Doctrine and stated that women would eventually be given the priesthood but such an event wouldn't occur until long into the eternities, when they have shown themselves worthy of it. If women only understood that, despite many of them being more righteous and faithful in this life than many current priesthood holders, the mistake they made in the pre-mortal life clearly disqualifies them from holding the priesthood, I think they would cease to desecrate general conference with their feminist babble. How quick women are to forget the doctrine of the priesthood.  

[Buckeye]

Women will never be ordained to the priesthood. Why? Because they don't need it, they never have they never will.

 

If you believe that current prophets are not bound by prior prophets, then you can never say "never."  The most any prophet can say is the current will of the Lord.  He cannot bind future prophets.

[LordUther]

If you believe that current prophets are not bound by prior prophets, then you can never say "never."  The most any prophet can say is the current will of the Lord.  He cannot bind future prophets.

 

No but they are bound by eternal principles.

[Buckeye]

No but they are bound by eternal principles.

 

Sure, they just can't declare a principle "eternal."  That would bind future prophets from declaring otherwise. 

[LordUther]

Sure, they just can't declare a principle "eternal."  That would bind future prophets from declaring otherwise. 

 

Sure they can if God tells them that it is so. That's what it mean to be the presiding High Priest of the Church he receives revelation concerning the entire world. All through the scriptures it is alluded to that at some point all men would be able to hold the priesthood, members of the leading councils may have got the time frame wrong, but all know it would happen. Nowhere in scriptures modern or ancient does it suggest that women will ever hold the priesthood. And no woman will be denied exaltation because of it. Without the priesthood a man cannot be exalted. Women do not need & will not have it, and no amount of wishful thinking or maybes will change that.

[Senator]

This Ordain Women movement needs a refresher course in Church doctrine. The reason women can't hold the priesthood is because during the pre-mortal war in Heaven there were those that opposed Jesus, those that fought valiantly with Him, and those who supported Him but were less valiant or kind of sat on the fence. As it turns out, all women were fence-sitters. As a consequence to their apathy they are born through the line of Eve (a women who showed her lack of valiance by following satan and partaking of the fruit) and are denied the blessing of holding the priesthood. Brigham Young and many early leaders taught this clearly, and Bruce R McConkie even included it in Mormon Doctrine and stated that women would eventually be given the priesthood but such an event wouldn't occur until long into the eternities, when they have shown themselves worthy of it. If women only understood that, despite many of them being more righteous and faithful in this life than many current priesthood holders, the mistake they made in the pre-mortal life clearly disqualifies them from holding the priesthood, I think they would cease to desecrate general conference with their feminist babble. How quick women are to forget the doctrine of the priesthood.  

 

I know this was intended as SPAM.  But I'm groovy enough to play in your sandbox.

 

So, I issue one big CFR to every statement you just made.

[Billy the Law]

I know this was intended as SPAM.  But I'm groovy enough to play in your sandbox.

 

So, I issue one big CFR to every statement you just made.

What's a CFR?

[JLHPROF]

Sure, they just can't declare a principle "eternal."  That would bind future prophets from declaring otherwise. 

This is coming at the issue backwards.  Eternal principles aren't based on what prophets declare.  They simply are.

The prophets can declare until they're blue in the face but that doesn't change the way things actually are.

 

Of course, sometimes commandments do change, but the principle espoused by Heber C. Kimball in the following quote is true.

The leaders of the Church cannot change (or declare) eternal principle.

 

"You might as well deny 'Mormonism,' and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose the doctrine, and the whole of them will be damned." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203