Foundational Doctrine Must Change For Women To Be Ordained

[Bernard Gui]

Alma 13 will be altered or ignored:

 

 

1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

 2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.

 3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

 4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.

 5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—

 7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things—

 12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

 13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

 14 Yea, humble yourselves even as the people in the days of Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken, who also took upon him the high priesthood forever.

 15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.

 16 Now these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord.

 17 Now this Melchizedek was a king over the land of Salem; and his people had waxed strong in iniquity and abomination; yea, they had all gone astray; they were full of all manner of wickedness;

 18 But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father.

 26 And it shall be made known unto just and holy men, by the mouth of angels, at the time of his coming, that the words of our fathers may be fulfilled, according to that which they have spoken concerning him, which was according to the spirit of prophecy which was in them.

I understand this to mean the high priesthood (Melchizedek) is given to those men who were foreordained to their callings, follows the pattern of the order of the Son of God.

[Bernard Gui]

This declaration of the First Presidency would have to be renounced and the Father/Son relationship between Elohim and Jehovah

would have to be revised.

 

 

The Father and the Son

In the early 1900s, some discussion arose among Church members about the roles of God the Father and Jesus Christ. The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued the following in 1916 to clarify the meaning of certain scriptures where Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, is designated as the Father. It is thought that a printing of this statement will be helpful to members as they study the Old Testament this year.

A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

From Improvement Era, Aug. 1916, 934–42; capitalization, punctuation, paragraphing, and spelling standardized.

The scriptures plainly and repeatedly affirm that God is the Creator of the earth and the heavens and all things that in them are. In the sense so expressed, the Creator is an Organizer. God created the earth as an organized sphere; but He certainly did not create, in the sense of bringing into primal existence, the ultimate elements of the materials of which the earth consists, for “the elements are eternal” (D&C 93:33).

So also life is eternal, and not created; but life, or the vital force, may be infused into organized matter, though the details of the process have not been revealed unto man. (For illustrative instances see Gen. 2:7; Moses 3:7; Abr. 5:7.) Each of these scriptures states that God breathed into the body of man the breath of life. See further Moses 3:19 for the statement that God breathed the breath of life into the bodies of the beasts and birds. God showed unto Abraham “the intelligences that were organized before the world was”; and by “intelligences” we are to understand personal “spirits” (see Abr. 3:22–23); nevertheless, we are expressly told that “Intelligence,” that is, “the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29).

The term “Father” as applied to Deity occurs in sacred writ with plainly different meanings. Each of the four significations specified in the following treatment should be carefully segregated.

1. “Father” as Literal Parent

Scriptures embodying the ordinary signification—literally that of Parent—are too numerous and specific to require citation. The purport of these scriptures is to the effect that God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title “Elohim,” is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and of the spirits of the human race. Elohim is the Father in every sense in which Jesus Christ is so designated, and distinctively He is the Father of spirits. Thus we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews: “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?” (Heb. 12:9). In view of this fact we are taught by Jesus Christ to pray: “Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name” (Matt. 6:9).

Jesus Christ applies to Himself both titles, “Son” and “Father.” Indeed, He specifically said to the brother of Jared: “Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son” (Ether 3:14). Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior. No extended explanation of the title “Son of God” as applied to Jesus Christ appears necessary.

2. “Father” as Creator

A second scriptural meaning of “Father” is that of Creator; e.g., in passages referring to any one of the Godhead as “the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are” (Ether 4:7; see also Alma 11:38–39; Mosiah 15:4).

God is not the Father of the earth as one of the worlds in space, nor of the heavenly bodies in whole or in part, not of the inanimate objects and the plants and the animals upon the earth, in the literal sense in which He is the Father of the spirits of mankind. Therefore, scriptures that refer to God in any way as the Father of the heavens and the earth are to be understood as signifying that God is the Maker, the Organizer, the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

With this meaning, as the context shows in every case, Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ the Son of Elohim, is called “the Father,” and even “the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth” (see passages before cited and also Mosiah 16:15). With analogous meaning Jesus Christ is called “The Everlasting Father” (Isa. 9:6; compare 2 Ne. 19:6). The descriptive titles “Everlasting” and “Eternal” in the foregoing texts are synonymous.

That Jesus Christ, whom we also know as Jehovah, was the executive of the Father, Elohim, in the work of creation is set forth in the book Jesus the Christ, chapter 4 [by James E. Talmage]. Jesus Christ, being the Creator, is consistently called the Father of heaven and earth in the sense explained above; and since His creations are of eternal quality He is very properly called the Eternal Father of heaven and earth.

3. Jesus Christ the “Father” of Those Who Abide in His Gospel

A third sense in which Jesus Christ is regarded as the “Father” has reference to the relationship between Him and those who accept His gospel and thereby become heirs of eternal life. Following are a few of the scriptures illustrating this meaning.

In fervent prayer offered just prior to His entrance into Gethsemane, Jesus Christ supplicated His Father in behalf of those whom the Father had given unto Him, specifically the Apostles, and, more generally, all who would accept and abide in the gospel through the ministry of the Apostles. Read in our Lord’s own words the solemn affirmation that those for whom He particularly prayed were His own, and that His Father had given them unto Him:

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

“Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

“And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:6–12).

And further:

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

“Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:20–24).

To His faithful servants in the present dispensation the Lord has said, “Fear not, little children, for you are mine, and I have overcome the world, and you are of them that my Father hath given me” (D&C 50:41).

Salvation is attainable only through compliance with the laws and ordinances of the gospel; and all who are thus saved become sons and daughters unto God in a distinctive sense. In a revelation given through Joseph the Prophet to Emma Smith, the Lord Jesus addressed the woman as “my daughter” and said, “For verily I say unto you, all those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters in my kingdom” (D&C 25:1). In many instances the Lord had addressed men as His sons (e.g., D&C 9:1; D&C 34:3; D&C 121:7).

That by obedience to the gospel men may become sons of God, both as sons of Jesus Christ, and, through Him, as sons of His Father, is set forth in many revelations given in the current dispensation. Thus we read in an utterance of the Lord Jesus Christ to Hyrum Smith in 1829:

“Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I am the life and the light of the world.

“I am the same who came unto mine own and mine own received me not;

“But verily, verily, I say unto you, that as many as receive me, to them will I give power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on my name. Amen” (D&C 11:28–30).

To Orson Pratt the Lord spoke through Joseph the seer, in 1830:

“My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;

“The light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

“Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son” (D&C 34:1–3).

In 1830 the Lord thus addressed Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon:

“Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.

“I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one” (D&C 35:1–2).

Consider also the following given in 1831:

“Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—

“The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

“The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;

“But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons” (D&C 39:1–4).

In a revelation given through Joseph Smith in March 1831 we read:

“For verily I say unto you that I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the light and the life of the world—a light that shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

“I came unto mine own, and mine own received me not; but unto as many as received me gave I power to do many miracles, and to become the sons of God; and even unto them that believed on my name gave I power to obtain eternal life” (D&C 45:7–8).

A forceful exposition of this relationship between Jesus Christ as the Father and those who comply with the requirements of the gospel as His children was given by Abinadi, centuries before our Lord’s birth in the flesh:

“And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?

“Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.

“For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?

“Yea, and are not the prophets, every one that has opened his mouth to prophesy, that has not fallen into transgression, I mean all the holy prophets ever since the world began? I say unto you that they are his seed” (Mosiah 15:10–13).

In tragic contrast with the blessed state of those who become children of God through obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ is that of the unregenerate, who are specifically called the children of the devil. Note the words of Christ, while in the flesh, to certain wicked Jews who boasted of their Abrahamic lineage: “If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. … Ye do the deeds of your father. … If God were your Father, ye would love me. … Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8:39, 41–42, 44). Thus Satan is designated as the father of the wicked, though we cannot assume any personal relationship of parent and children as existing between him and them. A combined illustration showing that the righteous are the children of God and the wicked the children of the devil appears in the parable of the tares: “The good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one” (Matt. 13:38).

Men may become children of Jesus Christ by being born anew—born of God, as the inspired word states:

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother” (1 Jn. 3:8–10).

Those who have been born unto God through obedience to the gospel may by valiant devotion to righteousness obtain exaltation and even reach the status of godhood. Of such we read: “Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God” (D&C 76:58; compare D&C 132:20, and contrast D&C 132:17 in same section; see also D&C 132:37). Yet though they be gods, they are still subject to Jesus Christ as their Father in this exalted relationship; and so we read in the paragraph following the above quotation: “And they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (D&C 76:59).

By the new birth—that of water and the Spirit—mankind may become children of Jesus Christ, being through the means by Him provided “begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24). This solemn truth is further emphasized in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ given through Joseph Smith in 1833:

“And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

“And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21–22).

For such figurative use of the term “begotten” in application to those who are born unto God, see Paul’s explanation: “For in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:15). An analogous instance of sonship attained by righteous service is found in the revelation relating to the order and functions of priesthood, given in 1832:

“For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies:

“They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God” (D&C 84:33–34).

If it be proper to speak of those who accept and abide in the gospel as Christ’s sons and daughters—and upon this matter the scriptures are explicit and cannot be gainsaid nor denied—it is consistently proper to speak of Jesus Christ as the Father of the righteous, they having become His children and He having been made their Father through the second birth—the baptismal regeneration.

4. Jesus Christ the “Father” by Divine Investiture of Authority

A fourth reason for applying the title “Father” to Jesus Christ is found in the fact that in all His dealings with the human family Jesus the Son has represented and yet represents Elohim His Father in power and authority. This is true of Christ in His preexistent, antemortal, or unembodied state, in the which He was known as Jehovah; also during His embodiment in the flesh; and during His labors as a disembodied spirit in the realm of the dead; and since that period in His resurrected state. To the Jews He said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30; see also John 17:11, 22); yet He declared, “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), and further, “I am come in my Father’s name” (John 5:43; see also John 10:25). The same truth was declared by Christ Himself to the Nephites (see 3 Ne. 20:35; 3 Ne. 28:10), and has been reaffirmed by revelation in the present dispensation (D&C 50:43). Thus the Father placed His name upon the Son; and Jesus Christ spoke and ministered in and through the Father’s name; and so far as power, authority, and godship are concerned His words and acts were and are those of the Father.

We read, by way of analogy, that God placed His name upon or in the angel who was assigned to special ministry unto the people of Israel during the exodus. Of that angel the Lord said, “Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him” (Ex. 23:21).

The ancient Apostle John was visited by an angel who ministered and spoke in the name of Jesus Christ. As we read, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John” (Rev. 1:1). John was about to worship the angelic being who spoke in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but was forbidden:

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

“Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not; for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God” (Rev. 22:8–9).

And then the angel continued to speak as though he were the Lord Himself:

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” (Rev. 22:12–13).

The resurrected Lord, Jesus Christ, who had been exalted to the right hand of God His Father, had placed His name upon the angel sent to John, and the angel spoke in the first person, saying, “I come quickly,” “I am Alpha and Omega,” though he meant that Jesus Christ would come and that Jesus Christ was Alpha and Omega.

None of these considerations, however, can change in the least degree the solemn fact of the literal relationship of Father and Son between Elohim and Jesus Christ. Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors. Following are affirmative scriptures bearing upon this great truth. Paul, writing to the Colossians, says of Jesus Christ:

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

“And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

“For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell” (Col. 1:15–19).

From this scripture we learn that Jesus Christ was “the firstborn of every creature,” and it is evident that the seniority here expressed must be with respect to antemortal existence, for Christ was not the senior of all mortals in the flesh. He is further designated as “the firstborn from the dead,” this having reference to Him as the first to be resurrected from the dead, or as elsewhere written “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20; see also 1 Cor. 15:23); and “the first begotten of the dead” (Rev. 1:5; compare Acts 26:23). The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews affirms the status of Jesus Christ as the firstborn of the spirit children of His Father and extols the preeminence of the Christ when tabernacled in flesh: “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Heb. 1:6; read the preceding verses). That the spirits who were juniors to Christ were predestined to be born in the image of their Elder Brother is thus attested by Paul:

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:28–29).

John the Revelator was commanded to write to the head of the Laodicean church, as the words of the Lord Jesus Christ: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev. 3:14). In the course of a revelation given through Joseph Smith in May 1833, the Lord Jesus Christ said, as before cited, “And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21). A later verse makes plain the fact that human beings generally were similarly existent in spirit state prior to their embodiment in the flesh: “Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth” (D&C 93:23).

There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the Elder Brother of the rest of humankind. That He is by spiritual birth Brother to the rest of us is indicated in Hebrews: “Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people” (Heb. 2:17). Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any or all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.

Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons or daughters of Elohim. So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.

The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Salt Lake City, Utah, 30 June 1916

Edited September 26, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[WmLaw]

Alma 13 will be altered or ignored:

 

 

1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

 2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.

 3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

 4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.

 5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—

 7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things—

 12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

 13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

 14 Yea, humble yourselves even as the people in the days of Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken, who also took upon him the high priesthood forever.

 15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.

 16 Now these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord.

 17 Now this Melchizedek was a king over the land of Salem; and his people had waxed strong in iniquity and abomination; yea, they had all gone astray; they were full of all manner of wickedness;

 18 But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father.

 26 And it shall be made known unto just and holy men, by the mouth of angels, at the time of his coming, that the words of our fathers may be fulfilled, according to that which they have spoken concerning him, which was according to the spirit of prophecy which was in them.

I understand this to mean the high priesthood (Melchizedek) is given to those men who were foreordained to their callings, follows the pattern of the order of the Son of God.

Do we know if any women were foreordained to high callings in the priesthood?

[JLHPROF]

Do we know if any women were foreordained to high callings in the priesthood?

 

 Perhaps - I posted these in the other thread earlier:

 

 

 

Priesthood roles (for men and women) ... are eternal in nature - they predate this mortality and will exist after.  Just a couple of references but there are more I don't have time to track down right now.

 

1. Thou wilt be permitted to pass by the Gods and angels who guard the gates, and onward, upward to thy exaltation in a celestial world among the Gods.  To be a priestess queen upon thy Heavenly Father’s throne, and a glory to thy husband and offspring, to bear the souls of men, to people other worlds while eternity goes and eternity comes; - John Taylor

(Priestess - a specific priesthood office for women that continues into eternity)

 

2. He was ordained a King and Priest to all eternity. After that, we two wives were anointed in like manner, and ordained Queens and Priestesses, to reign and rule with our husbands over his kingdom in the celestial world. - Fanny Stenhouse Tell It All

(Specific priesthood offices for men and women in the eternities)

 

3. The Priesthood was first given to Adam; he obtained the First Presidency, and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the Creation, before the world was formed.  ALSO

The Priesthood is an everlasting principle, and existed with God from eternity,and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years.  TPJS Pg 47

(Priesthood office given before the world was formed and exists eternally)

 

In my opinion, God can no more make a woman a priest or King than he can make a man a priestess or Queen.  And just as there are specific functions in the gospel for deacons, elders, high priests etc, there are specific functions for priestesses.  Women CAN hold the priesthood, but there are specific offices and places for them to do so, just as for men.  Wanting offices that belong to others shows a lack of understanding.

 

 

And I agree with the OP - it does mean changing the foundational doctrines.

[Bernard Gui]

If equality before God means that men and women should equally share ordination to the Priesthood after the

order of the Son of God, then it is reasonable to assume that 50% of the created and populated worlds would have

a Godhead consisting of Mother, Daughter, and Holy Ghost. [EDIT] or Father, Daughter, and Holy Ghost.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[WmLaw]

 Perhaps - I posted these in the other thread earlier:

 

 

And I agree with the OP - it does mean changing the foundational doctrines.

It certainly changes our understanding of doctrine.  But further light and knowledge always will.

[Bernard Gui]

Do we know if any women were foreordained to high callings in the priesthood?

 

If you mean ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood, I am not aware of any scriptural sources, but I am open to enlightenment.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[JLHPROF]

If equality before God means that men and women should equally share ordination to the Priesthood after the

order of the Son of God, then it is reasonable to assume that 50% of the created and populated worlds would have

a Godhead consisting of Mother, Daughter, and Holy Ghost. 

 

Women of Mormondom pg 195 - "A trinity of mothers - Eve the Mother of a world; Sarah the Mother of the covenant; Zion the Mother of Celestial sons and daughters"

 

Not quite the same thing, but an interesting chapter to read.

[why me]

The basic idea behing the OrdainWomen organization is to destroy the church. And it would happen if the decision were made to ordain girls to the priesthood. Many would leave the faith but new members would come on board. But I don't think that the church would recover from the shock. The lds church would begin to look like the Community of Christ structure. A radical change for sure. And the women behind the movement would still not participate in the meetings. I don't think that their testimony would be made stronger.

[Bernard Gui]

Women of Mormondom pg 195 - "A trinity of mothers - Eve the Mother of a world; Sarah the Mother of the covenant; Zion the Mother of Celestial sons and daughters"

 

Not quite the same thing, but an interesting chapter to read.

Mary the mother of Jesus?

[Bernard Gui]

The basic idea behing the OrdainWomen organization is to destroy the church. And it would happen if the decision were made to ordain girls to the priesthood. Many would leave the faith but new members would come on board. But I don't think that the church would recover from the shock. The lds church would begin to look like the Community of Christ structure. A radical change for sure. And the women behind the movement would still not participate in the meetings. I don't think that their testimony would be made stronger.

I like your analogy with the C of C.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

This really depends on how we're defining 'foundational'. Of course, even if Foundational Doctrine were to change, I don't think there is anything wrong with change. We have renounced and revised many teachings which were once preached as the word of God; the Church is still standing. 

 

As far as what previous generations have taught ... "Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world. We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more."

 

According to the Articles of Faith, we believe that God will yet reveal many great things. If we have yet to receive them, and yet they are great and important, that implies that we don't have all the answers yet; if history is anything to go by, further light often forces a reconceptualization of our previous understanding. It might be painful, but it's a good kind of pain, like exercise. Change is good! What else is Eternal Progression but a change in our Wisdom? Isn't that the whole point of continuing revelation? We can't have it both ways and claim we believe that we'll learn many new things while falling back on old understandings. Like Pearl Jam said, it's evolution, baby.

 

If we really believe in continuing revelation, we should anticipate being 'shocked' from time to time - I wish we were shocked more often, personally. That was one of Joseph Smith's best qualities. If anything, I think we've been getting complacent; might it not be the case that God won't give us anything if all we're doing is trying to maintain our comfortable paradigm rather than working to continually grow? (If the C of C has any good, why should we be bothered if we look like them? After all, one of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let if come from whence it may. We don't differ so much from other denominations, and though all have some error, they also have truth mixed in.) 

 

It certainly would not "destroy the church" if we were to ordain girls to the priesthood. Quite the contrary, I think it would be one of the greatest things we could do to strengthen the church - we should have been the first people to continue ordaining women to the Priesthood. If the "Order" is a Cosmological Priesthood in which we share in the Work of God to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man ['man' in the universal sense], then we should become saviors to each other lest we be as salt that has lost its savor. 

 

Our English word 'Priest' comes from Latin presbyter, from the Greek presbyteros - in all likelihood from pres-bous, meaning 'before the cow'. A Priest is someone old enough to be responsible for shepherding and ministering to part of the flock, someone who has been given a stewardship. The English has been used to translate Hebrew kohen (related to Arabic kahana, meaning "to divine, prophesy"), the Greek hiereus (from hieros, meaning Holy), and the Latin sacerdos, meaning someone who gives sacrifices. In all this, I don't think there's anything inherently tying Priesthood to a particular gender; it is all a matter of what we do with it. 

 

The various historical subsets subsumed within the larger Order perform specific functions, true. But the trend, I think, is for God to open up more and more opportunities for more and more people to serve by expanding the aegis of the mantle of authority farther and farther until we are all able to speak for God because we are all anointed with the chrism as Christs, saviors to each other. 

 

I assume that the bolding of 'holy men' in the first post is meant to imply that the text is asserting that only men can hold the Priesthood. But we cannot use the universal use of 'men' or 'man' in scripture as a pretext to deny women; if we were to be consistent, that would include statements such as D&C 20:71:

 

No one can be received into the church of Christ unless he has arrived unto the years of accountability before God, and is capable of repentance.

 

If we were to read the masculine usage as literal and exclusive, we would have to conclude from verses such as this that no women are allowed in the church, which is clearly false.

 

Do we know if any women were foreordained to high callings in the priesthood?

 

If you mean ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood, I am not aware of any scriptural sources, but I am open to enlightenment.

 

 

 

Margaret Barker has some fascinating reconstructions of the Holy Spirit of Lady Wisdom being present in the Anointing Oil from the Olive Tree of Life; it might very well be that Lady Wisdom was the Archetypal Priestess. Depending on how one interprets a few key phrases, I personally think it's quite clear that Joseph Smith gave a Priesthood Key to the Relief Society, and the current practice of only ordaining men is a just that -- an outdated cultural practice on par with the similarly nondoctrinal refusal to ordain black men to the Priesthood for many years despite Joseph Smith's personally ordaining Elijah Abel, etc. (Indeed, if this reading is correct, then ordaining women would not be a 'change' in foundational doctrine, it would be a Restoration of a foundational doctrine which we managed to lose!)

 

Certainly there are women in the Bible (which, remember, also says that there is neither male nor female when we are one in Christ) who might have held some sort of Priesthood, since it openly includes Prophetesses such as Miriam, Deborah the Bee, Huldah, Anna from Luke, the four daughters of Philip the Evangelist, and Isaiah's wife.

 

Indeed, after that General Conference talk dealing with Bee Symbolism awhile back, I brought up Nibley's big chapter on that: The Deseret Connection!

 

Quote

In Greece, as elsewhere, the oldest of all religious centers was established when the Bee maidens, the daughters of Melissaeus and nurses of Zeus, swarmed at the sacred oak of Dodona, while sacred doves brought the oracular cult of Ammon from Egypt. The first oracular shrine in Israel was founded by Deborah the Bee, where she died on the migration from Egypt at the sacred Oak of Deborah. The procession that opened the celebration of the mysteries of Eleusis was led by a sacred wagon along the Sacred Way (of the Migration) by priestesses called the Melissai -- the Bee maidens or the Swarm.

The serving maidens at Delphi were a chorus of Bees, and the high priestess was called "the Bee." A recent archaeological discovery strikingly confirms the many legends that trace the bee shrines to Egypt. It is the statuette of a singing girl, found in the Temple of Delos, brought directly from Neith's cult center at Sais, and inscribed with a supplication by the girl to be remembered by the maidens "who have been admitted to the temple of the Bee, . . . who have entered the sanctuary of Neith."

...

What ties it all together is Asenath, the queen of the Deseret hive, then and now, as the mother of Ephraim and Manasseh by Joseph, whom she married in the midst of a swarm of bees, bringing her honey and covering her person to do her reverence. Her name is generally explained today as "meaning in Egyptian 'she belongs to, or is the servant of, [the goddess] Neith,'" Neith being the primal Bee mother of the Egyptians.

 

Hint. Hint. (Gather All The Good And True - it'd be absurdly easy to start contextualizing all the Bee symbolism we use in Young Women's as a sort of progression/ascension to Priesthood.) 

 

In closing, I think this lovely quote from the ever-quotable B. H. Roberts might be useful to consider:

 

Quote

"Disciples [...] in the world of religious [...] opinion, are of two sorts. There are, first, the disciples pure and simple - people who fall under the spell of a person or a doctrine, and whose whole intellectual life thenceforth consists in their partisanship. They expound, and defend, and ward off foes, and live and die faithful to the one formula. Such disciples may be indispensable at first in helping a new teaching to get a nominal hearing, but in the long run they rather hinder than help the wholesome growth of the very ideas that they defend: for great ideas live by growing, and a doctrine that has merely to be preached, over and over, in the same terms, cannot possibly be the whole truth [...] We live spiritually by outliving our formulas, and by thus enriching our sense of their deeper meaning. Now the disciples of the first sort do not live in this larger and more spiritual sense. They repeat. And true life is never mere repetition.

 

On the other hand, there are disciples of a second sort [...] They [...] bring to the new teaching, from the first, their own personal contribution. The truth that they gain is changed as it enters their souls. The seed that the sower strews upon their fields springs up in their soil, and bears fruit - thirty, sixty, an hundred fold. They return to their master his own with usury. Such men are the disciples that it is worthwhile for a master to have [...] Disciples of the second sort cooperate in the works of the Spirit; and even if they always remain rather disciples than originators, they help to lead the thought that they accept to a truer expression. They force it beyond its earlier and cruder stages of development.

 

I believe Mormonism affords opportunity for disciples of the second sort; nay, that its crying need is for such disciples. It calls for thoughtful disciples who will not be content with merely repeating some of its truths, but will develop its truths; and enlarge it by that development. Not half - not one-hundredth part - not a thousandth part of that which Joseph Smith revealed to the Church has yet been unfolded, either to the Church or to the world.

 

The work of the expounder has scarcely begun. The Prophet planted by teaching the germ-truths of the great dispensation of the fullness of times. The watering and the weeding is going on, and God is giving the increase, and will give it more abundantly in the future as more intelligent discipleship shall obtain. The disciples of Mormonism, growing discontented with the necessarily primitive methods which have hitherto prevailed in sustaining the doctrine, will yet take profounder and broader views of the great doctrines committed to the Church; and, departing from mere repetition, will cast them in new formulas; co-operating in the works of the Spirit, until they help to give to the truth received a more forceful expression, and carry it beyond the earlier and cruder stages of its development."

Edited September 26, 2013 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[Buckeye]

Excellent as always Jeremy.

[Kenngo1969]

People like to draw parallels between the prospect of ordaining women to the Priesthood and Official Declaration 2, which lifted the restriction on race.  The problem with that is that with respect to the latter, there was always a contingent of leadership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which said that blacks of African ancestry would be ordained at some future time, while there never has been such a contingent with respect to the prospect of ordaining women.

[Senator]

People like to draw parallels between the prospect of ordaining women to the Priesthood and Official Declaration 2, which lifted the restriction on race.  The problem with that is that with respect to the latter, there was always a contingent of leadership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which said that blacks of African ancestry would be ordained at some future time, while there never has been such a contingent with respect to the prospect of ordaining women.

 

I don't see that as a problem.

[Traela]

No, Jeremy, ordaining men only is not outdated. It is just as applicable to our times as earlier ones.

We are one of the few churches in which men exhibit the same level of faithfulness as the women. I suggest that this is because men in our church have specific duties that only they can do. In a world where men are becoming increasingly marginalized, they need, more than ever, to feel needed. Since God loves His sons just as much as He does His daughters, He naturally is going to set up a system that increases the likelihood of them staying faithful to the gospel.

And that's just in first world countries. There are still plenty if places in the world that women get every low status, unpaid job. What will happen to those women if they are given the Priesthood? Very likely, priesthood duties will slowly (or not so slowly) turn into a women's thing, so they have all those duties on top of their existing duties. Since God loves His daughters just as much as He does His sons, He is not going to give them additional burdens. Instead, He is going to pound it into the heads of His sons that religion and unpaid service is just as much a guy thing as it is a girl thing.

[Kenngo1969]

Another thing: Receiving the Melchizedek Priesthood is a saving ordinance for men in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  That's part of the reason why, I think, blessings of the Temple weren't extended to blacks of African descent before they received the Priesthood.  Otherwise, those for whom ordinances had been performed by proxy would have had most (but not all) of those ordinances performed for them, and then would have had to receive the Priesthood by proxy at a later time.  At the very least, such a state of affairs would have posed an enormous logistical challenge. Do those who believe women should receive the Melchizedek Priesthood believe it is a saving ordinance for women?  If so, has it always been a saving ordinance?  If so, we've got our work cut out for us.

[Buckeye]

People like to draw parallels between the prospect of ordaining women to the Priesthood and Official Declaration 2, which lifted the restriction on race. The problem with that is that with respect to the latter, there was always a contingent of leadership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which said that blacks of African ancestry would be ordained at some future time, while there never has been such a contingent with respect to the prospect of ordaining women.

 

Actually, it's just the opposite. The racial priesthood ban said that blacks would not receive the priesthood until all non-blacks had the opportunity. That was the hard part of the change. People, including Elder McConkie, sincerely believed the restriction could not be removed in this life. A good source to understand this is the 1949 First Presidency statement (just google it). Today, we sometimes sugar-coat the change to suggest it could happen anytime, but that's just not how members saw it who lived under the ban.

 

Unlike the racial ban, there has never been a doctrine saying that women could not receive the priesthood until X happens. So in that regard, there is less doctrinal barrier to women's ordination than black ordination.

[Kenngo1969]

I don't see that as a problem.

 

And with a Jedi Wave of The Hand ...   I don't necessarily see it as a problem, either, so much as something I think would need to be explained in order to justify ordaining women to the Melchizedek Priesthood.  Essentially, the position of those favoring ordination of women to the Melchizedek Priesthood must be, "The Lord hasn't known what He's been doing all of this time ..."

[Buckeye]

No, Jeremy, ordaining men only is not outdated. It is just as applicable to our times as earlier ones.

We are one of the few churches in which men exhibit the same level of faithfulness as the women. I suggest that this is because men in our church have specific duties that only they can do. In a world where men are becoming increasingly marginalized, they need, more than ever, to feel needed. Since God loves His sons just as much as He does His daughters, He naturally is going to set up a system that increases the likelihood of them staying faithful to the gospel.

And that's just in first world countries. There are still plenty if places in the world that women get every low status, unpaid job. What will happen to those women if they are given the Priesthood? Very likely, priesthood duties will slowly (or not so slowly) turn into a women's thing, so they have all those duties on top of their existing duties. Since God loves His daughters just as much as He does His sons, He is not going to give them additional burdens. Instead, He is going to pound it into the heads of His sons that religion and unpaid service is just as much a guy thing as it is a girl thing.

 

So a mother can't baptize her child because the slacker down the street isn't doing his hometeaching?  Talk about being punished for Adam's transgression!

[Buckeye]

 

And with a Jedi Wave of The Hand ...   I don't necessarily see it as a problem, either, so much as something I think would need to be explained in order to justify ordaining women to the Melchizedek Priesthood.  Essentially, the position of those favoring ordination of women to the Melchizedek Priesthood must be, "The Lord hasn't known what He's been doing all of this time ..."

 

Or .... it could be that we haven't known the will of the Lord all along and we're finally open to more blessings.  It all depends on whether you think we've "arrived" at perfection yet.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Buckeye

[Kenngo1969]

Actually, it's just the opposite. The racial priesthood ban said that blacks would not receive the priesthood until all non-blacks had the opportunity. That was the hard part of the change. People, including Elder McConkie, sincerely believed the restriction could not be removed in this life. A good source to understand this is the 1949 First Presidency statement (just google it). Today, we sometimes sugar-coat the change to suggest it could happen anytime, but that's just not how members saw it who lived under the ban.

 

Unlike the racial ban, there has never been a doctrine saying that women could not receive the priesthood until X happens. So in that regard, there is less doctrinal barrier to women's ordination than black ordination.

You talk as though there was virtual unanimity among leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with respect to the implications of the Priesthood ban ... until right before it was lifted in 1978.  There was not.  There was always a contingent of Brethren who believed the ban wasn't permanent.  Not so with respect to the prospect of ordaining women.  God love Elder McConkie, but I don't care what people (even such people as Elder McConkie) believed before June 9, 1978.  God love Brother Brigham.  He said a lot of great things, but in order to proclaim the Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he would need to do so as a member of the unanimous First Presidency and/or as a member of the unanimous Quorum of the Fifteen Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[Senator]

 He is going to pound it into the heads of His sons that religion and unpaid service is just as much a guy thing as it is a girl thing.

 

Where can I sign up for that religion???  Sounds grrrraaaeet....

[Kenngo1969]

Or .... it could be that we haven't known the will of the Lord all along and we're finally open to more blessings.  It all depends on whether you think we've "arrived" at perfection yet.

Have fun steadying the ark!   I think the Lord is able to do His own work.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You talk as though there was virtual unanimity among leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with respect to the implications of the Priesthood ban ... until right before it was lifted in 1978.  There was not.  There was always a contingent of Brethren who believed the ban wasn't permanent.  Not so with respect to the prospect of ordaining women.  God love Elder McConkie, but I don't care what people (even such people as Elder McConkie) believed before June 9, 1978.  God love Brother Brigham.  He said a lot of great things, but in order to proclaim the Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he would need to do so as a member of the unanimous First Presidency and/or as a member of the unanimous Quorum of the Fifteen Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

This is a great point. I have never heard anywere a leader of the church in an offical talk speak about a time when women will hold the preisthood that same as a man. In fact I can't think of a time when I have heard leaders talkin even just giving their opinion that women would hold the preisthood. Unlike the preisthood ban for blacks I have read a few talks were they talked about a future point in time when they would get it.