Gay Marriage And What It Could Mean The Lds Church.

[thesometimesaint]

I doubt that any law would actually go into place....at least not for a long, long time and by then we probably would have other political issues to worry about the legal landscape having changed so much..

But I do think there is a possibility of someone simply suing for the 'fun' of it, to hassle the Church with a frivolous lawsuit. It wouldn't be the first time it happened (though the one I know of the guy was rather 'off'), there is no law against filing any kind of lawsuit is there? I have a friend who looked like it was about to happen to due to some weird stuff going on with her business.

Then there are valid lawsuits that attach the Church's name without a valid reason.

What kind of penalties are in place to discourage this kind of thing? Anything?

A single lawsuit by a single individual(or small group of people) there is no law against that yet. But in California numerous lawsuits without merit by the same person, or small group of individuals, there are laws against.

http://en.wikipedia....ious_litigation

I don't know about Utah law.

[Tacenda]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56728340-78/lgbt-affirmation-mormons-conference.html.csp

In the article the statement below was really refreshing to read.

"Steve and Barb Young, both active members of the Utah-based LDS Church, said in a statement they are happy to be part of 2013 Affirmation Conference, "where they hope to lend their voices to the healing work of making our families, our society and our church more welcoming places for our LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender] brothers and sisters."

ETA: http://www.newfrontiers.affirmation.org/

This is where one can register to attend. I think I'll go listen to the Youngs for 15 bucks!

[Buzzard]

http://www.sltrib.co...erence.html.csp

In the article the statement below was really refreshing to read.

"Steve and Barb Young, both active members of the Utah-based LDS Church, said in a statement they are happy to be part of 2013 Affirmation Conference, "where they hope to lend their voices to the healing work of making our families, our society and our church more welcoming places for our LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender] brothers and sisters."

ETA: http://www.newfronti...ffirmation.org/

This is where one can register to attend. I think I'll go listen to the Youngs for 15 bucks!

In the Prop 8 battle, Steve kept a low profile. His wife, who has a homosexual brother, was much more outspoken. I can't help but speculate that she told Affirmation that "I'd love to come, and I promise that Steve will be there as well".

BTW, Affirmation says that gays were gay in the preexistence. And that sexually active gays are not out of step with the Plan of Salvation. From their website: "We believe that our lives and relationships can be compatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Plan of Salvation."

I like Steve, and understand why his wife would love her brother like a brother. But I would posit that this particular organization is not the wisest choice to be associated with.

[rockpond]

I like Steve, and understand why his wife would love her brother like a brother. But I would posit that this particular organization is not the wisest choice to be associated with.

It's a wise association if they agree with the organization's basic principles. Steve & Barb Young are supporters of the Family Acceptance Project and the Trevor Project which have overlapping goals & scope.

For reference, here is Affirmation's "Who We Are" statement:

Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender individuals from every background and situation, united in the shared experience of a spiritual and/or cultural heritage in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon).

• We affirm that sexual orientation, identity, and expression are special gifts from God and that we are all children of loving Heavenly Parents
  
• We believe that our lives and relationships can be compatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Plan of Salvation, and that LGBT individuals are a special part of God's Creation
  
• We reject the concept that orientation and identity can be changed and believe that same sex relationships are entitled to the same recognition and blessings as heterosexual relationships
  

We are a family that consists of active members of the LDS faith, former members and non-members.

Our membership consists of individuals at different places in the coming-out process, as well as families, friends and allies. Our mission is to provide a safe space where LGBT individuals, as well as those questioning their orientation, can associate with like individuals, ask questions, and know that they are not alone. We help LGBTQ people reconcile with their spirituality within the context of a common Mormon background.

I'm sure that there are some things that Affirmation officials have said at one time or another that the Young's and I disagree with. The same is true of the church and of the BSA but I still happily associate with those organizations.

[Tacenda]

http://gaymormonstories.org/008-john-gustav-wrathall-pt-4-on-his-return-to-mormonism-on-his-terms-and-his-surprising-path-to-parenthood/

I've not listened to the podcasts yet, but are my eyes playing tricks on me or are they saying they go to church as a family and even hold callings?

[EllenMaksoud]

http://gaymormonstories.org/008-john-gustav-wrathall-pt-4-on-his-return-to-mormonism-on-his-terms-and-his-surprising-path-to-parenthood/

I've not listened to the podcasts yet, but are my eyes playing tricks on me or are they saying they go to church as a family and even hold callings?

I am told that there is a "gay mormon" ward in San Francisco.

 

I just can't figure the phenomena out, yet know gay, lesbian and transgender folk, and have seen the tears and heard the stories. I attended a Metropolitan Community Church a few times in 2005, and the thing that struck me is that where I attended, it was all about gay issues, and very openly so. For me, what ever a person's issues are, church has to be about Heavenly Father and nothing else. This is one issue, where I stop being rebellious and wait for the leadership to figure it out. Though, I think in time that science will bring us to a better understanding of it all.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The title of this thread should say "Gay Marriage And What It Could Mean for the LDS Church."

So I Saw this story over on the Blaze.

http://www.theblaze....e-sex-nuptials/

I find it interesting that now that it is legal to marry of in England that that is not enough. This guy is wanting force the church into accpeting or performing thier marriage. I am telling you now that this is a type of thing that will happen in this nation when and if gay marriage is made legal er put on the same platform as traditional marriage.

May I note something...

 

We were just one of many groups involved in Prop 8, but as of late Gay threads seem to dominate the boards. It seems in the minds of many we are almost the only religious org who supports traditional marriage. Even among our own membership: how has this issue come to be such a Mormon issue? Mormons in media have become a particular target of Gay groups. It seems freedom of conscience or belief is fine, as long as one believes in anything but the traditional definition via God's first institution and his first commandment. Should not we as believers in his commandments support his laws, or should we by the laws of today social issues. I watch many boards (mostly due to my condition which keeps me immobile and gives me something to do) but why has this become a "Mormon issue"? I have a Gay child who is asked at times what faith she is, when she tells them she is Mormon, she gets red the riot act. She tells people "this is my family you are speaking of and friends I love. She is often asked...and they are nice to you, she replies, "yes, they have known me all my life, greet me with hugs, just like other family and friends, they are not monsters". I speak with her five or six times a day, and unless she is working, if I ask her to come to Church she replies, "yes sir" and is there. She helped support her brother on a mission for two years. If her lifestyle required her to go to hell, I would take her place. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that if our children go astray and we as parents keep the covenants we made in the Temple, that although our children will have to pay for their sins (as will we all if unrepentant) they will one day find their way home and will be ours for eternity. I know of no better reason to be faithful. God loves all his children, as do I. Not meaning to rant, just wondering why so many want to lay this issue at our feet to such and unequal degree?

[thesometimesaint]

As the law isn't forcing anyone to marry, let alone a member of the same sex. It is a non-issue for the law.

 

The Church can and does have its rules for the proper behavior of those that want to have communion with the Saints. What it can't/doesn't do is tell me whom I'm to love as my brother and sister. IF I am to be damned for having as much love for my homosexual brothers and sisters as I do for my heterosexual ones. Then Hell will be a more loving place than Heaven.

[california boy]

May I note something...

 

We were just one of many groups involved in Prop 8, but as of late Gay threads seem to dominate the boards. It seems in the minds of many we are almost the only religious org who supports traditional marriage. Even among our own membership: how has this issue come to be such a Mormon issue? Mormons in media have become a particular target of Gay groups. It seems freedom of conscience or belief is fine, as long as one believes in anything but the traditional definition via God's first institution and his first commandment. Should not we as believers in his commandments support his laws, or should we by the laws of today social issues. I watch many boards (mostly due to my condition which keeps me immobile and gives me something to do) but why has this become a "Mormon issue"? I have a Gay child who is asked at times what faith she is, when she tells them she is Mormon, she gets red the riot act. She tells people "this is my family you are speaking of and friends I love. She is often asked...and they are nice to you, she replies, "yes, they have known me all my life, greet me with hugs, just like other family and friends, they are not monsters". I speak with her five or six times a day, and unless she is working, if I ask her to come to Church she replies, "yes sir" and is there. She helped support her brother on a mission for two years. If her lifestyle required her to go to hell, I would take her place. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that if our children go astray and we as parents keep the covenants we made in the Temple, that although our children will have to pay for their sins (as will we all if unrepentant) they will one day find their way home and will be ours for eternity. I know of no better reason to be faithful. God loves all his children, as do I. Not meaning to rant, just wondering why so many want to lay this issue at our feet to such and unequal degree?

 

 

 

You seriously do not understand why Mormons are the most closely associated group that pushed for the passage of Prop 8?  You think this is just media persecution against the Mormon church???  Honestly I do not think you could be that clueless why this happened.  If you seriously do not understand why the Mormon church is so targeted above all other organizations, I suggest you watch the movie "Prop 8, the Mormon Proposition".  Then get back to us.

 

It is going to be a long time before the Mormon church has any fuzzy feelings within the gay community.  While the church has made a lot of progress in trying to build a bridge towards the gay community since the political involvement with Prop 8, most gays only remember the very visual action by the church leading the charge for Prop 8.  I too hear distain for the church not just within the gay community, but also within the larger population that fervently believe gays should not be discriminated against.  

[thesometimesaint]

Then the gay's willfully have blinders on.

[Calm]

What it can't/doesn't do is tell me whom I'm to love as my brother and sister.

 

Actually it does...it says we are to love everyone as our brothers and sisters.

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/05/teach-us-tolerance-and-love?lang=eng

 

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&nav=0&sourceId=5079767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD

 

Each of us is a child of Heavenly Father, with our individual personality and physical characteristics. Together we all make up His eternal family. He loves and values each of us. He also wants His children to love one another and treat each other as brothers and sisters.

 

[Kenngo1969]

Kengo I have read your very intelligent posts man, you deserve your calling. I would be proud to follow you.

 

Thank you (and I mean this most sincerely) for the vote of confidence.   However, I must say that I can only think, off of the top of my head, of approximately 20 brethren who would do better in my calling than I have ... than I do.  (And that's simply in my own ward; I'm sure that if I spent any time at all in your ward, I would reach the same conclusion fairly quickly.)  As for your sentiment that you would be proud to "follow" me, while I appreciate that sentiment, as well, I would say that you should only follow any mortal insofar as s/he points you to Christ.  (To whatever degree I may have done that, for you or for anyone else, through posting here, I'm gratified to know that: Give God the praise; I'm a sinner. )

[rockpond]

May I note something...

 

We were just one of many groups involved in Prop 8, but as of late Gay threads seem to dominate the boards. It seems in the minds of many we are almost the only religious org who supports traditional marriage. Even among our own membership: how has this issue come to be such a Mormon issue?  Mormons in media have become a particular target of Gay groups. It seems freedom of conscience or belief is fine, as long as one believes in anything but the traditional definition via God's first institution and his first commandment. Should not we as believers in his commandments support his laws, or should we by the laws of today social issues. I watch many boards (mostly due to my condition which keeps me immobile and gives me something to do) but why has this become a "Mormon issue"? I have a Gay child who is asked at times what faith she is, when she tells them she is Mormon, she gets red the riot act. She tells people "this is my family you are speaking of and friends I love. She is often asked...and they are nice to you, she replies, "yes, they have known me all my life, greet me with hugs, just like other family and friends, they are not monsters". I speak with her five or six times a day, and unless she is working, if I ask her to come to Church she replies, "yes sir" and is there. She helped support her brother on a mission for two years. If her lifestyle required her to go to hell, I would take her place. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that if our children go astray and we as parents keep the covenants we made in the Temple, that although our children will have to pay for their sins (as will we all if unrepentant) they will one day find their way home and will be ours for eternity. I know of no better reason to be faithful. God loves all his children, as do I. Not meaning to rant, just wondering why so many want to lay this issue at our feet to such and unequal degree?

 

I haven't noticed people acting as if we (LDS) are the only religious organization left that supports one man, one woman marriage.  But I live in a very evangelical part of the country.

 

As for how this has become such a "Mormon issue"?  That's easy.  Mormon leaders stepped in and spearheaded the Prop 8 effort.  (Exhibit A:  Letter from President Packer).  We also represented a disproportionate amount of the donations (Exhibit B:  $2.8 million of the Yes on 8 funding came from the state of Utah... more than any other state outside of California) and members are credited with donating about half the funds used to support the proposition despite being less than 2% of the CA population (this one, however, is tough to verify since religious affiliation is not tracked with donations).

 

I've heard other fellow church members express a similar sentiment about why our church gets tied to this issue.  I'm curious... If you believe that this was the right thing to do and that this was the direction God wanted us to take... why would you NOT want our church associated with it?  If we are strong in our convictions then we should be proud to accept our major role in the passage of Prop 8.

 

I wonder if those members who don't like this being a "Mormon issue" have some feelings that possibly this wasn't what we should have done.

 

Your statement:  "It seems freedom of conscience or belief is fine, as long as one believes in anything but the traditional definition via God's first institution and his first commandment." is a strawman.  Nobody is saying that you cannot hold to that belief.

 

But I do fully agree with your final sentiments... God loves all His children and has the power, ultimately, to save them if they will accept it.

[thesometimesaint]

Actually it does...it says we are to love everyone as our brothers and sisters.

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/05/teach-us-tolerance-and-love?lang=eng

 

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&nav=0&sourceId=5079767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD

 

True enough.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You seriously do not understand why Mormons are the most closely associated group that pushed for the passage of Prop 8?  You think this is just media persecution against the Mormon church???  Honestly I do not think you could be that clueless why this happened.  If you seriously do not understand why the Mormon church is so targeted above all other organizations, I suggest you watch the movie "Prop 8, the Mormon Proposition".  Then get back to us.

 

It is going to be a long time before the Mormon church has any fuzzy feelings within the gay community.  While the church has made a lot of progress in trying to build a bridge towards the gay community since the political involvement with Prop 8, most gays only remember the very visual action by the church leading the charge for Prop 8.  I too hear distain for the church not just within the gay community, but also within the larger population that fervently believe gays should not be discriminated against.

My point is the board is not for Gay issues, but apologetics. I have always found you to be kind and understanding of others opinions; why do you seem angry at me, or is my daughter you resent, for being gay, but loving of her faith? "Many" groups were involved in Prop 8, so why the obsession with us, and are we not allowed to be involved in this issue we disagree with, we are American's and people who feel we must follow our moral convictions. We believe in a God who will one day judge us on how we act on those convictions. Don't hate me for doing and saying what I think is right, I assure you I don't hate you and have compassion for how you feel others, or Mormons have wronged you. I "must" follow my conscience and the God whom I worship. I know it may hurt, but God instituted marriage, fist thing he ever did after creation, if this was his most important priority, I should at least lend my voice to the debate or do you wish me to stop being who I am. You would not approve of me asking this of you?

[rockpond]

My point is the board is not for Gay issues, but apologetics. I have always found you to be kind and understanding of others opinions; why do you seem angry at me, or is my daughter you resent, for being gay, but loving of her faith? "Many" groups were involved in Prop 8, so why the obsession with us, and are we not allowed to be involved in this issue we disagree with, we are American's and people who feel we must follow our moral convictions. We believe in a God who will one day judge us on how we act on those convictions. Don't hate me for doing and saying what I think is right, I assure you I don't hate you and have compassion for how you feel others, or Mormons have wronged you. I "must" follow my conscience and the God whom I worship. I know it may hurt, but God instituted marriage, fist thing he ever did after creation, if this was his most important priority, I should at least lend my voice to the debate or do you wish me to stop being who I am. You would not approve of me asking this of you?

 

I think that I have a better idea of what you are getting at now vs. my previous response to you.  But I still think you are addressing two issues:

 

First, the issue of why the LDS church is so frequently associated with the issue of gay marriage.  We've attempted to answer that.

 

Second, the issue of why the threads on these boards so frequently discuss this topic.

 

I think that second question is really important to consider.  Based on discussions here, in person with family/friends, in church... it seems to me that homosexuality is becoming an increasingly divisive issue within the church.  And I think that's likely why it pops up here so often.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

What PaPa said.

 

We must have compassion for those that struggle with same sex attraction.

 

But at the same time we must not condone their actions.  From a scriptural point of view, and from what Elder M. Russell Ballard has said, it is the moral obligation of the churches to speak out against issues that they know are morally wrong.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

What PaPa said.

 

We must have compassion for those that struggle with same sex attraction.

 

But at the same time we must not condone their actions.  From a scriptural point of view, and from what Elder M. Russell Ballard has said, it is the moral obligation of the churches to speak out against issues that they know are morally wrong.

I was not trying to hit a nerve or offend, I have a child who is gay...compassion is all I can express. I once told her I cannot support same-sex marriage, she replied "you are my father and I love you and I would not ask you too". On thing that interests me is why we get the lion share of blame. Is it because we had more money to give than other religious and non-religious groups? My faith requires me (or my conscience and belief) to support the scriptures and to love those I disagree with...I am not sure what I said that had someone I have always been cordial with and him with me to become angry. Be it God or nature, gay men and women cannot keep the first commandment unless they turn to science of marry someone of another gender. Mormons or gov't are not responsible for this.

[Tacenda]

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/entertainment-eonline/20130820/b450377/

I'm glad there is a thread still going for me to post this. I thought it to be meaningful.

[rockpond]

I was not trying to hit a nerve or offend, I have a child who is gay...compassion is all I can express. I once told her I cannot support same-sex marriage, she replied "you are my father and I love you and I would not ask you too". On thing that interests me is why we get the lion share of blame. Is it because we had more money to give than other religious and non-religious groups? My faith requires me (or my conscience and belief) to support the scriptures and to love those I disagree with...I am not sure what I said that had someone I have always been cordial with and him with me to become angry. Be it God or nature, gay men and women cannot keep the first commandment unless they turn to science of marry someone of another gender. Mormons or gov't are not responsible for this.

 

Why do you phrase it as "blame" rather than getting the credit?  If it was the right thing to do, then we should be proud of the accomplishment.

 

I responded to you earlier with a link to President Packer's letter to church leaders/members regarding how to organize to get Prop 8 passed.  That LDS organization and manpower along with the disproportionate amount of funding the LDS church members is why we get the credit/blame.

[rockpond]

What PaPa said.

 

We must have compassion for those that struggle with same sex attraction.

 

But at the same time we must not condone their actions.  From a scriptural point of view, and from what Elder M. Russell Ballard has said, it is the moral obligation of the churches to speak out against issues that they know are morally wrong.

 

Speak out?  Yes.

 

Support legislation that infringes upon the rights and liberties of others?  No.

 

D&C 134:4

 

"We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul."

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Why do you phrase it as "blame" rather than getting the credit? If it was the right thing to do, then we should be proud of the accomplishment.

I responded to you earlier with a link to President Packer's letter to church leaders/members regarding how to organize to get Prop 8 passed. That LDS organization and manpower along with the disproportionate amount of funding the LDS church members is why we get the credit/blame.

I am proud that we are doing what we believe, as far as asking why don't I say something, my words are my own and I find it deceptive to say things other than I mean. My hope is that God's commands and desires be fulfilled. I am not going to say what others think are popular for the sake of being liked. So my words are my own and I take full reosibility. I do not hate, I do not seek malice against anyone. I believe in the leadership of the Church, I believe the gospel. If I am wrong then I am prepared to be condemned. Sorry if this offends, but I must be true to myself.

Btw if I used "credit" where I used blame, only interchanging those two words, I would have less understanding than I usually do. You have responded to my posts three times, if you think me wrong or bigoted say so. If you wish to call me to repentance, do so. I can take it, be quick though, I think I will soon be done here.

One of my favorite quotes...

"To thine own self be true".

[Daniel2]

This just in from New Mexico – where civil same-sex marriage is neither officially recognized nor officially prohibited, but antidiscrimination laws are on the books:

NEW MEXICO: Supreme Court Rules That Photographer Discriminated Against Gays

The case that has inflamed anti-gay groups for years has finally been settled by the New Mexico state Supreme Court. Via press release from the ACLU:

The New Mexico Supreme Court ruled today that Elane Photography illegally discriminated against a same-sex couple by refusing to photograph their commitment ceremony due to the business owner’s religious beliefs.

The opinion stated: “We conclude that a commercial photography business that offers its services to the public, thereby increasing its visibility to potential clients, is subject to the antidiscrimination provisions of the [New Mexico Human Rights Act] and must serve same-sex couples on the same basis that it serves opposite-sex couples. Therefore, when Elane Photography refused to photograph a same-sex commitment ceremony, it violated the NMHRA in the same way as if it had refused to photograph a wedding between people of different races.”

“When you open a business, you are opening your doors to all people in your community, not just the select few who share your personal beliefs,” said Louise Melling, deputy legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union. “The Constitution guarantees religious freedom in this country, but we are not entitled to use our beliefs as an excuse to discriminate against other people.”

I'm interested if people can tell the difference between "religious liberties being taken away" versus "not allowing religion to be used as an excuse to get around antidiscrimination laws."

For what it's worth, I think the New Mexico Supreme Court made the right decision.

Daniel

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The LDS church is 100% politics also, most callings. It is not based on who is the most righteous or who is called of god it is pure politics. Similar to climbing up the corporate ladder, the exact same thing. That goes for all levels of callings the higher the calling the more politics are involved. That is not meant to be offensive, that is just my truthful observation and just a basic understanding of how human beings work.

Having been involved in the process of many callings this is just not so, I would not lie to you.

[Pahoran]

The LDS church is 100% politics also, most callings. It is not based on who is the most righteous or who is called of god it is pure politics. Similar to climbing up the corporate ladder, the exact same thing. That goes for all levels of callings the higher the calling the more politics are involved. That is not meant to be offensive, that is just my truthful observation and just a basic understanding of how human beings work.

Of course it's not offensive.  It's too far off the wall to be offensive.

 

Your "truthful observation" bears no resemblance to reality.  Sorry.

 

Regards,

Pahoran