Did The Church Ever Cease To Exist?

[Calm]

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/115.4-5?lang=eng#3

1 Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and also my servant Sidney Rigdon, and also my servant Hyrum Smith, and your counselors who are and shall be appointed hereafter;

2 And also unto you, my servant Edward Partridge, and his counselors;

3 And also unto my faithful servants who are of the high council of my church in Zion, for thus it shall be called, and unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world;

4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

5 Verily I say unto you all: Arise and shine forth, that thy light may be a standard for the nations;

[Calm]

Yes.

I'd like to know how God defines the term.

Does He, anywhere in the standard works?

This might be the most complete:

3 Nephi 27:2 And Jesus again showed himself unto them, for they were praying unto the Father in his name; and Jesus came and stood in the midst of them, and said unto them: What will ye that I shall give unto you?

3 And they said unto him: Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church; for there are disputations among the people concerning this matter.

4 And the Lord said unto them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, why is it that the people should murmur and dispute because of this thing?

5 Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day;

6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day.

7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.

8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;

10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.

11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.

12 For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

Edited July 31, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

70 And now, remember the words of him who is the life and light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen.

http://www.lds.org/s....69?lang=eng#68 Edited July 31, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/18.17?lang=eng#16

Mosiah 18:

<a name="17"> 17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.

18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests; even one priest to every fifty of their number did he ordain to preach unto them, and to teach them concerning the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

19 And he commanded them that they should teach nothing save it were the things which he had taught, and which had been spoken by the mouth of the holy prophets.

20 Yea, even he commanded them that they should preach nothing save it were repentance and faith on the Lord, who had redeemed his people.

[The Nehor]

I'd be interested in any quotes to the effect that the Church was completely removed from the earth, or that it can't exist without priesthood authority.

I don't recall Joseph ever actually saying that (or saying that he was told that.)

I know the restored Church is usually said to have begun on April 6 1830, but weren't Joseph and Oliver baptizing people before then, and wouldn't those people have been part of the Church?

What about people who were baptized 1730?

Or 1030?

Or 330?

Were they part of the Church?

You can baptize without a church on the earth. The Church needs the Priesthood (and keys) to exist. The reverse is not true.

It could be argued that was what John the Baptist was doing.

As to other baptisms during time of Apostasy we have a whole section in the D&C saying they are invalid. The only exceptions would be any done by heavenly beings (probably translated) but that would not create a church and there is no evidence they happened anyways.

[inquiringmind]

The only exceptions would be any done by heavenly beings (probably translated) but that would not create a church and there is no evidence they happened anyways.

Why would that not create a Church?

Edited July 31, 2013 by inquiringmind

[The Nehor]

I've been told several times that the Church ceased to exist shortly after the death of the Apostles, but I've never read anything in the D&C or from JS to substantiate that, and I get the impression that it's just the biased personal opinion of some individual Mormons.

I see no reason not to consider Saint Francis of Assisi, John and Charles Wesley, and (given what the BOM says) Christopher Columbus as members of the Church (in good standing.)

Nor am I aware of anything Joseph said to the contrary.

If I'm wrong I was hoping someone here could correct me by pointing out some clear and relevant quotation.

You're funny.

[The Nehor]

Why would that not create a Church?

The question is "Why would it?"

A church is an organization. John the Revelator baptizing someone who needed it would not create an organization. More importantly, no keys.

[halconero]

Calmoriah's using Shock and Awe tactics...everyone stay clear.

[Calm]

Calmoriah's using Shock and Awe tactics...everyone stay clear.

Darn....you are not supposed to tell...

[Vance]

Based on the above, who's to say that the church didn't continue in one of these locales?

They couldn't. It is rather obvious that the Apostles were the central authorities and the all local authorities were subordinate to them. Therefore, no local authority could legitimately call or select his own replacement (nor could the congregation). Only an apostle could authorize the replacement of a local leader. It is apparent that the Apostles, as a group, did have the authority to call/select replacements for lost members of "the twelve". SO!!! Without Apostles all authority to operate "the Church" at the local level would have disappeared within one generation.

[mfbukowski]

I don't see a clear statement that the Church ever entirely ceased to exist.

Another ambiguity problem.

"The church" can refer to the concept of Christianity itself, or it can refer to the specific organization incorporated as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" which was organized in 1830, and whose headquarters are in SLC etc etc. Obviously THAT "church" did not exist as an organization before 1830.

But yes, Christianity existed, we would say without priesthood "keys" for nearly 2000 years continuously.

So in one sense it did exist and in another it did not. Take your pick- it depends on what you are talking about.

[mfbukowski]

But can the Church exist (in an incomplete, imperfect form) without those keys?

Christianity can exist w/o keys and in fact did- but our church which we believe is restored true christianity did not, so you hear it both ways depending on which entity the speaker is talking about.

[Questing Beast]

But can the Church exist (in an incomplete, imperfect form) without those keys?

The "church of the Lamb" and the "church of the devil" are the ONLY TWO churches on the face of the whole earth, at any time and in all places. Therefore, "church" is defined by the heart, intents and desires of individuals. Those who love God and godly things belong to the "church of the Lamb", while those who want God to go away and leave them alone to do what they want, that is not just or right, belong to the "church of the devil". End stop....

[Damien the Leper]

The church never ceased nor did the priesthood. It was carried on through Bishops such as Ignatius, Irenaeus and Athanasius. The death of the first century apostles did not leave God's church in darkness and without ecclesiastical authority.

[inquiringmind]

Christianity can exist w/o keys and in fact did- but our church which we believe is restored true christianity did not, so you hear it both ways depending on which entity the speaker is talking about.

Does God use the term in more than one way?

[mfbukowski]

Does God use the term in more than one way?

Well since he speaks through humans, I am sure he does- or at least that scripture does.

[Calm]

Does God use the term in more than one way?

If you mean in the scriptures, the best way to find out is to do a search for yourself.

[Ahab]

Good grief. Not only does everyone want to chime in to share their idea of what the true gospel is, and what the true Church of Christ is, but what true Christianity is all about, too. As if what anyone thinks is in agreement with what God thinks about all of this.

Take your pick. Everyone has an answer. For the best results I recommend that you check with God, personally.

[Questing Beast]

And what says to you that "we" haven't done as you recommend, Ahab? As has been pointed out innumerable times, breaking the "deadlock" over points of dogma/doctrine is not forthcoming from God or anywhere else. You believe in your answers. I believe in mine. The Muslim believes in his. And so it goes, as always....

Edited July 31, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Ahab]

And what says to you that "we" haven't done as you recommend, Ahab? As has been pointed out innumerable times, breaking the "deadlock" over points of dogma/doctrine is not forthcoming from God or anywhere else. You believe in your answers. I believe in mine. The Muslim believes in his. And so it goes, as always....

I know someone isn't in agreement with God when what they say and mean isn't in agreement with what God has told me.

As has been pointed out innumberable times, there is no "deadlock". It's just that people either agree with God or they do not.

[inquiringmind]

I know someone isn't in agreement with God when what they say and mean isn't in agreement with what God has told me.

As has been pointed out innumberable times, there is no "deadlock". It's just that people either agree with God or they do not.

What has God told you Ahab?

Did the Church ever entirely cease to exist?

[Ahab]

What has God told you Ahab?

Did the Church ever entirely cease to exist?

No, but there have been times when it wasn't open to new members in some locations where the Church wasn't.

The Church is a group/organization/kingdom of people who follow Jesus Christ and become members of the Church through the covenant and ordinance of baptism, properly administered, and if the Church had been around where Joseph Smith was living our Lord would have told him where to go to join it. Kinda like Paul, who was still named Saul, when he was told where to go to join it.

That's why he had to wait for others to come to him from the immortal realm, so he could join it, and then help other people join it.

[inquiringmind]

Thank you.

Of all the comments here, yours is the only one I see that really fits in with this.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst-rev/12?lang=eng

Edited August 1, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Abulafia]

Can the Church exist without priesthood authority?

And did it ever entirely cease to exist between the death of the Apostles and Joseph's first vision?

Well, if you think about it. Jesus was a Jew and the original Jesus Movement was firmly within Judaism. Jesus was not a Levite and neither were most of the Apostles. Jesus appeared to indicate a liberal view of authority in Mark 9:38.

Paul, was not ordained by any apostle. He, according to his own letters, spent many years doing his own thing,with his own interpretation of what it meant to be a Jesus follower that differed on occasion with the 'Jerusalem Contingent'.

Apollos is an interesting character as a follower of Jesus and who had also been a follower of John. He is baptizing, Paul is baptizing. No one holds the priesthood here in the way that LDS assume is necessary.

For Apollos what is important is baptism, for Paul there is more.

1 Clement sees the Apostles as a 'sealed unit'. The Didache and Paul do not. (Not surprising in Paul's case).

Ignatius is steeped in Pauline Christianity as is Polycarp.

I tend to go with the idea that had a 'church' been so important that Jesus would have left everything sown up in terms of structure and authority. He didn't. Infact there is every reason to assume that no-one thought, in the earliest communities, that there would be a need for a church, since the Parousia was going to manifest itself within the first generation of converts.

The term Church, as I understand it, comes from ekklesia which was a gathering, an assembly. It is a greek term. It only began to be used as it became apparent that the Parousia wouldn't be occurring soon. (I think Acts mentions that it was first used in Antioch - not Jerusalem)

It's so much more messy and complicated than simple yes/no answers.

In my opinion Jesus followers exist wherever attempts to love, to be good, to try to be better are held as priorities. That means that a Jesus follower transcends any religious denomination. It's a way of life, not an adherence to any human organisation, which will always be a less than perfect reflection of the Divine.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Abulafia