Did The Church Ever Cease To Exist?

[Abulafia]

Which is reminiscent of the Christian agape feasts discussed by Hyppolytus, and which even took place in the catacombs in Rome in order to be near the dear departed. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so that I continue to wonder when the first Christian priest intoned Aramaic liturgical den bisri "this is my body," and den idmi"this is my blood" (and officiated in all the other ordinances). For these were equivalent to the sacrificial words used at the Jewish Temple, and Holy Communion is believed by some to have replaced the temple sacrifice -- Bruce Chilton, Rabbi Jesus: An Intimate Biography (Doubleday, 2000), 250-257, asserts that Jesus’ Last Supper was merely the most important in a series of feasts which replaced Temple sacrifice –- very much akin to the great, angelic banquet of salvation in heaven (cf. TB Hagiga 14b)., while the great Solomon Zeitlin and Joachim Jeremias both said that the Jewish-Christian Eucharist was held as a kind of seder meal on the first night of Passover (back when the Jewish and Christian liturgical calendars were the same).

Interesting. Thanks Robert. Will check out those authors.

[volgadon]

Volgadon, okay. Here goes. For the origin of the Eucharist as a full meal look at the evidence of the 'Last Supper' in all the Synoptics. Each has Jesus break bread, and offer wine within the context of a full meal.

Mark 14:22-24

See also Jude 1:12

and also some of the social problems that occurred because of a difference in wealth levels and the habits of wealthy Greek (and Roman) communities during the Eucharistic Meals.

1 Corinthians 11

So the NT passages indicate that the Eucharist as we understand it was once part of a full meal.

Given that, the passages in the Didache (which seem as early if not earlier than the Gospel of Matthew) start to make sense within the context of 'that' particular community.

For Scholarly opinion on this issue there is the work of Jonathan Draper, Aaron Milavec and Jonathan Schwiebert.

(Edited to add - there are also some intriguing differences, with regard to what were later seen as essential Eucharistic elements, that are wholly absent for the community of the Didache)

I appreciate the refernces.

[DBMormon]

just to weigh in. Priesthood was never completely gone from the earth between Christ and the restoration - John the revelator and the Three Nephites as the bare minimum.

Also the Book of Revelation says the Church went into the wilderness where it was nurtured of the Lord and D&C says the Church came out of the wilderness. Terryl Givens ( no he does not speak officially for the Church) understands this to mean it never completely left and that God was still working with people and D&C 49:8 indicates that God has "ordained" (used loosely) others outside the church to do his work, and Joseph didn't even know them.

I think we see the apostacy and the "true and Living church" much differently then God sees it.

Edited August 10, 2013 by DBMormon

[Calm]

I could very well see small groups of "ordained" Christians (communities who were like the Nephites or Mulekites in that they either started out as colonies or later received some sort of revelation allowing them to establish God's Church fully for a time) sprinkled all over the world in all sorts of different cultures from whenever man began to covenant with God. I don't see it as likely to be in large areas of concentrated population save in the known areas (Israel) due to having problems with dealing with the dominant culture of the time and place, diversity not always being an admired characteristic in ancient and medieval societies.

[Abulafia]

Volgadon,

Here's the book reference for Schwiebert.

Knowledge and the Coming Kingdom : The Didache's Meal Ritual and Its Place in Early Christianity

Schwiebert, Jonathan Schwiebert

Pages: 293

Publisher: Continuum International Publishing

Location: London, GBR

Date Published: 08/2008

There is also a short but interesting article by Joseph Ysebaert called "The Eucharist as a Love-meal (agape) in Didache 9-10, and its Development in the Pauline and in the Syrian Tradition"

It's available from Brill Academic Publishers.

That's just a taster of the scholarship on the subject. I'm sure there is plenty more.

Edited to add - my tutor's book 'The Didache: A window on the earliest Christians' Thomas O'Loughlin, SPCK, 2010 has a whole chapter (5) on the subject.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Abulafia

[Abulafia]

Calmoriah said:

I could very well see small groups of "ordained" Christians (communities who were like the Nephites or Mulekites in that they either started out as colonies or later received some sort of revelation allowing them to establish God's Church fully for a time) sprinkled all over the world in all sorts of different cultures from whenever man began to covenant with God.

I think that Melchizedek (if he is a man not a title) is an example of someone who 'wasn't' a Hebrew, but who shared a common belief with them, and indicates that there was respect for (what they perceived to be) truth from whatever its source.

I attended the Given's Fireside when they came to the UK, and as DB Mormon argues, this seemed to be what they were implying. As you can imagine, I quite liked that perspective. Cyrus was given the title of 'Annointed one' (Messiah) despite being Zoroastrian. Truth and goodness are what they are, no matter where they are found.

[volgadon]

Volgadon,

Here's the book reference for Schwiebert.

There is also a short but interesting article by Joseph Ysebaert called "The Eucharist as a Love-meal (agape) in Didache 9-10, and its Development in the Pauline and in the Syrian Tradition"

It's available from Brill Academic Publishers.

That's just a taster of the scholarship on the subject. I'm sure there is plenty more.

Edited to add - my tutor's book 'The Didache: A window on the earliest Christians' Thomas O'Loughlin, SPCK, 2010 has a whole chapter (5) on the subject.

Thank you for the references, Abulafia. I'm always happy to expand my reading, and I concede the point.

[cdowis]

just to weigh in. Priesthood was never completely gone from the earth between Christ and the restoration - John the revelator and the Three Nephites as the bare minimum.

The issue is not the continuation of the priesthood, as you have demonstrated, but the loss of the keys to administer the ordinances of the Gospel. John and the 3 Nephites did not have the keys from God necessary to administer in the church, but were given a special commission.

Edited August 10, 2013 by cdowis

[DBMormon]

Except Revelation tells us the Church didn't completely dissapear, rather it retreated into the wilderness where it was nurtured of the Lord.

Combine that with D&C 49:8 that there are holy men (so holy they don't need to repent it says) who God has reserved unto himself that are doing his work, and he tells Joseph, you don't even know who they are.

In fact Joseph is pulled towards this idea of this retreat into the wilderness and he uses the same language in D&C (i believe 4 or 5 or 6) where the Church comes forth out of the wilderness.

Edited August 10, 2013 by DBMormon