Fanny Alger And The Sealing Authority

[why me]

Eh? Where have I failed to see the human aspect and proven my bad history?

I just asked what the earliest record of the 1831 revelation was and who the source was.

We're saying Joseph had the revelation in 1831. Where/when does he say he does? Where/when do others say he did?

I suppose that you will need to write Bushman since he does give 1831 and the church too. Now where he got it from...I have no idea. If you read the account in Bushman you will see that it was not an easy for Joseph Smith. I don't think that he was a happy camper with the polygamy commandment. Critics paint him as a horny bunny hopping into many holes with a smile on his face. I get a sense of a real struggle going on within him. And this is the human aspect of it all. It is quite easy to just blow it all away and assume that he was just a lustful young man in need of a fix. Far from it. Bushman brings out the human aspect very well.

I don't see you considering the human aspect at all when it comes to this and how this commandment impacted Joseph Smith. But that is only my opinion.

Edited July 31, 2013 by why me

[canard78]

I suppose that you will need to write Bushman since he does give 1831 and the church too. Now where he got it from...I have no idea. If you read the account in Bushman you will see that it was not an easy for Joseph Smith. I don't think that he was a happy camper with the polygamy commandment. Critics paint him as a horny bunny hopping into many holes with a smile on his face. I get a sense of a real struggle going on within him. And this is the human aspect of it all. It is quite easy to just blow it all away and assume that he was just a lustful young man in need of a fix. Far from it. Bushman brings out the human aspect very well.

I don't see you considering the human aspect at all when it comes to this and how this commandment impacted Joseph Smith. But that is only my opinion.

My questions aren't anything to do with the human aspect. I'm not for a minute suggesting he was a "horny bunny." I'm not drawing any conclusions about Joseph.

I'm simply asking about what sources are available. Doesn't Bushman provide sources for his 1831 assertion?

[LordUther]

Moroni 1:2 talks about the Lamanites putting to death those Nephites that won't deny Christ...which implies it would seem that they allowed those who did deny Christ to live, basically defectors....and considering the depravity of the Nephites at the time, I bet there were lots that were happy enough to do so.

So I think one could reason that a good segment of the Nephite population might have survived, either through defections in the past where Lamanite pretty much became a political label rather than a tribal label and those who survived by defections at the end....

add-on: I knew there was a specific verse dealing with defections:

You might be interested in this Calmoriah...it really gets interesting after the 3rd red paragraph...

http://www.whiteindians.com/politics.html

[Tacenda]

I suppose that you will need to write Bushman since he does give 1831 and the church too. Now where he got it from...I have no idea. If you read the account in Bushman you will see that it was not an easy for Joseph Smith. I don't think that he was a happy camper with the polygamy commandment. Critics paint him as a horny bunny hopping into many holes with a smile on his face. I get a sense of a real struggle going on within him. And this is the human aspect of it all. It is quite easy to just blow it all away and assume that he was just a lustful young man in need of a fix. Far from it. Bushman brings out the human aspect very well.

I don't see you considering the human aspect at all when it comes to this and how this commandment impacted Joseph Smith. But that is only my opinion.

If I were told to live plural marriage and was a man, I'd be sure to pick women that my wife approved of, and me being a woman would want the old maids to line up. I hate that term, but lack of a better word. Some of his choices were just a little telling, proof in the pudding. Details matter in this case. He didn't live the revelation he revealed, look closely at it. Also, Emma didn't die for going against it, but Joseph went as a young man to his death.

[Thinking]

https://www.lds.org/...rriage?lang=eng

"Influenced by rumors and exaggerated reports, the United States Congress, beginning in 1862, enacted a series of laws against polygamy that became increasingly harsh. By the 1880s many Latter-day Saint men were imprisoned or went into hiding."

What were these rumors and exaggerated reports that caused Congress to enact a series of laws against polygamy? That the saints were practicing polygamy?

[why me]

"Influenced by rumors and exaggerated reports, the United States Congress, beginning in 1862, enacted a series of laws against polygamy that became increasingly harsh. By the 1880s many Latter-day Saint men were imprisoned or went into hiding."

What were these rumors and exaggerated reports that caused Congress to enact a series of laws against polygamy? That the saints were practicing polygamy?

I think that we would need to look at the media at that time and what exactly they were saying. It should be clear that the newspapers were not exactly friendly to mormonism. Ann Eliza Young took the show on the road speaking out against mormonism and polygamy. And she was definitely in demand being a former plural wife. And I am sure that the newspaper reports were quite sensational about what the utah saints were up to.

[why me]

If I were told to live plural marriage and was a man, I'd be sure to pick women that my wife approved of, and me being a woman would want the old maids to line up. I hate that term, but lack of a better word. Some of his choices were just a little telling, proof in the pudding. Details matter in this case. He didn't live the revelation he revealed, look closely at it. Also, Emma didn't die for going against it, but Joseph went as a young man to his death.

Old maids could have been lined up at the door but emma would still not be on board. I see him between a rock and a hard place. What should he have done if he felt it was a commandment? Also, I think that the proof is not in the pudding. If you would read Rough Stone Rolling you would get a different pudding to think about. Here is the point: not a single plural wife ever said a negative word about Joseph Smith even after he was murdered. Why? Because maybe these women experienced something different than what you think.

I must say that Joseph had tremendous luck. Not one witness to the book of mormon denied their testimony. And none of these 33 women ever claimed that Joseph was a horn dog out for a good time. And if we think about it...it would have only taken a couple of these women to make this claim and the church would come tumbling down like a house of cards.

So what do you think about Joseph's luck? Quite extraordinary. Or are you misunderstanding the pudding?

[Thinking]

I think that we would need to look at the media at that time and what exactly they were saying. It should be clear that the newspapers were not exactly friendly to mormonism. Ann Eliza Young took the show on the road speaking out against mormonism and polygamy. And she was definitely in demand being a former plural wife.

You didn't answer my question. A newspaper can be non-friendly but still be accurate. Ann Eliza Young spoke out against polygamy, which the mormons were practicing. Again, what were these rumors and exaggerated reports that caused Congress to enact a series of laws against polygamy?

And I am sure that the newspaper reports were quite sensational about what the utah saints were up to.

CFR

[oremites]

Also, Emma didn't die for going against it, but Joseph went as a young man to his death.

I don't understand your point. Why would we expect Emma to die for going against it? Where was Joseph promised a long life if he practiced plural marriage?

[LordUther]

If I were told to live plural marriage and was a man, I'd be sure to pick women that my wife approved of, and me being a woman would want the old maids to line up. I hate that term, but lack of a better word. Some of his choices were just a little telling, proof in the pudding. Details matter in this case. He didn't live the revelation he revealed, look closely at it. Also, Emma didn't die for going against it, but Joseph went as a young man to his death.

This is my take on it..

Was Joseph a fallen prophet? Nope, the divine manifestations he continued to have (the Kirtland Pentecost, The Saviours appearance to him & Oliver at Kirtland & the Saviour & Heavenly Fathers appearance to him at the school of the prophets) tell us he continued to work with God's favour. Also there were multiple witnesses to these events so we know that they happened.

Did Joseph sin in these matters? If he did his repentance must've been acceptable to the Lord or he would've been removed from office & he would've become a fallen prophet-see above. If he didn't sin then he must've been working within guidelines that Heavenly Father had given him or under Heavenly Fathers instruction.

We also have Joseph's comment to Brigham that went along the lines of "if I told you everything I know even you would turn against me & seek my life" so we know Joseph had revealed to him far more than he ever revealed to us. What I do know is that whatever happened is between Joseph & the Lord and all we can do is speculate on a subject for which at this time there is no definitive answer for.

[Calm]

Doesn't Bushman provide sources for his 1831 assertion?

Unfortunately I lent my book out. I will see if anyone at FAIR knows any more specifics.

[omni]

I suppose that you will need to write Bushman since he does give 1831 and the church too. Now where he got it from...I have no idea. If you read the account in Bushman you will see that it was not an easy for Joseph Smith. I don't think that he was a happy camper with the polygamy commandment. Critics paint him as a horny bunny hopping into many holes with a smile on his face. I get a sense of a real struggle going on within him. And this is the human aspect of it all. It is quite easy to just blow it all away and assume that he was just a lustful young man in need of a fix. Far from it. Bushman brings out the human aspect very well.

I don't see you considering the human aspect at all when it comes to this and how this commandment impacted Joseph Smith. But that is only my opinion.

It would seem that someone who really struggled to accept the commandment of polygamy would have two, maybe three wives, but Joseph was able to marry 33 women in just over ten years. Actions often speak louder than words.

[Calm]

You didn't answer my question. A newspaper can be non-friendly but still be accurate.

I believe many published reports of forced marriages and other abuses...

I will see what I can find.

[cinepro]

It would seem that someone who really struggled to accept the commandment of polygamy would have two, maybe three wives, but Joseph was able to marry 33 women in just over ten years. Actions often speak louder than words.

Depending on which women and which sealing dates you accept, he married >30 women in 2 1/2 years (1841-3).

Edited July 31, 2013 by cinepro

[Calm]

I believe many published reports of forced marriages and other abuses...

I will see what I can find.

Off the top of my head, I remember an article that stated Mormons were a new type of substandard humans...all very scientific too.

Also:

Of fifty-six anti-Mormon novels published during the nineteenth century, four established a pattern for all of the others. The four were sensational, erotic novels focusing on the supposed plight of women in the Church. Alfreda Eva Bell´s Boadicea, the Mormon Wife(1855) depicted Church members as "murderers, forgers, swindlers, gamblers, thieves, and adulterers!" Orvilla S. Belisle´s Mormonism Unveiled (1855) had the heroine hopelessly trapped in a Mormon harem. Metta Victoria Fuller Victor´s Mormon Wives(1856) characterized Mormons as a "horrid" and deluded people. Maria Ward (a pseudonym) depicted Mormon torture of women in Female Life Among the Mormons(1855). Authors wrote lurid passages designed to sell the publications. Excommunicated members tried to capitalize on their former membership in the Church to sell their stories. Fanny Stenhouse´s Tell It All (1874) and Ann Eliza Young´s Wife No. 19 (1876) sensationalized the polygamy theme. William Hickman sold his story to John H. Beadle, who exaggerated the Danite myth in Brigham´s Destroying Angel (1872) to caricature Mormons as a violent people.

http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/viewEM.aspx?number=206

Also here for a presentation on the subject:

http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences/2003-fair-conference/2003-old-themes-and-stereotypes-never-die-the-unchanging-ways-of-anti-mormons

[why me]

It would seem that someone who really struggled to accept the commandment of polygamy would have two, maybe three wives, but Joseph was able to marry 33 women in just over ten years. Actions often speak louder than words.

Actually he married 32 women in just two years. Why? This is where the dialogue should take place. Why was he in a hurry to fulfill that commandment? What was behind it?

Edited July 31, 2013 by why me

[why me]

You didn't answer my question. A newspaper can be non-friendly but still be accurate. Ann Eliza Young spoke out against polygamy, which the mormons were practicing. Again, what were these rumors and exaggerated reports that caused Congress to enact a series of laws against polygamy?

CFR

Cal took care of the CFR. I think that we have very little awareness just what the these saints were experiencing in the media. I have heard that in California there were articles about exterminating the mormons in utah. Do I have a reference at this moment? No. But I do remember reading it. When we put ourselves in their place, we can see the stress that they had to endure at the hands of the non-mormons and exmormons. And sadly, the saints are still experiencing such comments from the same type of people.

[Sleeper Cell]

Thanks. I think this line sums it up:

"There are no contemporaneous records which tell us when Joseph first taught plural marriage, or when he first had a revelation endorsing it."

Most of these are recollections of people 20-30 years after the event. I'm not denying there was plural marriage practiced in Joseph's era eventually. But it's hard to see where the doctrine appears before 'stuff' happens with Alger.

Doesn’t the doctrine first appear in the Book of Mormon? Jacob 2:30 certainly opens the door to the future practice of plural marriage, when it would have been so easy to unequivocally shut it. For example, by simply omitting that verse.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Sleeper Cell

[halconero]

If I were told to live plural marriage and was a man, I'd be sure to pick women that my wife approved of, and me being a woman would want the old maids to line up. I hate that term, but lack of a better word. Some of his choices were just a little telling, proof in the pudding. Details matter in this case. He didn't live the revelation he revealed, look closely at it. Also, Emma didn't die for going against it, but Joseph went as a young man to his death.

There were quite a few that were beyond the age that is normally considered "attractive."

On the other hand, if we criticize Joseph for taking a young bride we must also criticize Abraham for taking a women specifically because of her child bearing age.

[ALarson]

There were quite a few that were beyond the age that is normally considered "attractive."

And what age do you believe that is?

[why me]

And what age do you believe that is?

You would have to read Tacenda's post to understand context. She insinuated that Joseph was marrying young and if so, that is proof of his true intentions. The poster wished to stick a pin in that balloon.

[ALarson]

You would have to read Tacenda's post to understand context. She insinuated that Joseph was marrying young and if so, that is proof of his true intentions. The poster wished to stick a pin in that balloon.

Well IIRC, 30 of them were under 40 years of age (which in my book is still a very attractive age)

[MDalby]

Is there a chronology of events, from an LDS perspective, as best as we know? That gives dates of revelations and marriages etc associated with polygamy?

[LordUther]

I believe there's one on Wikipedia under "Joseph Smith's Wives". On my phone otherwise I'd post the link.

[cinepro]

And what age do you believe that is?

=@ =@ =@