Doubt Is Not A Sin: Deseret News On Mattson, Fair, Doubt And Faith

[Tacenda]

[FYI, I'm not trying to quote you out of context here, Canard, I just wanted to "cut to the chase" and include only what I'm responding to, since your post is available in its entirety elsewhere on the thread. Please don't be offended if you don't think I included enough.]

I agree with your assertion above. I don't think that it's the case, necessarily, that the more education one has, the less one is prone to doubt. However, I do think that, in general, the higher one's educational level (depending on what field that education is in, perhaps) the more likely it is that one is able to tolerate ambiguity without feeling as though s/he must jettison an entire paradigm.

Does that make sense?

My son said on his mission, the more educated the harder to teach. What did you find on your mission?

[Scott Lloyd]

My son said on his mission, the more educated the harder to teach. What did you find on your mission?

Which makes it all the more remarkable that the most stalwart of believers in our church would be found among the better-educated class.

To me, it says something about the appeal of Mormonism, properly understood, to the mind and the soul.

[Kenngo1969]

My son said on his mission, the more educated the harder to teach. What did you find on your mission?

Speaking of prospective members, that's true. Speaking of those who are members, I did, indeed, find that there was a strong positive correlation between belief and commitment, and educational level.

[CV75]

Why is the church newsroom a better place for comment on spiritual matters of faith/doubt than a prophet?

It isn’t a better place. It is where comment on spiritual matters may be made in a style suitable for a general public consumption in light of the news outlets ultimately controlling the Church’s message, and in light of the Church’s understanding that the media both serves and profits from the general public’s interests and tastes.

The Church can comment in the news on two types of information: that which is perceived and defined by the general public as noteworthy, previously unknown, important current events; and that which is of more narrow interest to Church members.

When addressing the news media, the “spokesperson” approach is taken on that which is of note to the general public, using a language (not just words!) that is best tolerated by the consumers; when addressing the membership, more ecclesiastical approaches are taken, using language that is more spiritual. The first is more journalistic in style; the second more nuanced.

I think the Church is using a great deal of genius to cover the spectrum of news types and communication in its own media holdings and in its interface with other media.

[why me]

Kind of makes a person like me feel validated. The acknowledgement finally. But I think the situation in Sweden is going to produce a domino affect and it might get worse before it gets better. I know the church has survived an exodus of disaffected members before and this will be like a sieve and will keep only the strongest of members. Or it will remain status quo, and there will be those that stay because it's a good way to live.

The situation in sweden is not so bad. I don't think that there is an exodus at all. True, Hans is a problem. But most people have not deserted the ship. Just a couple of months ago there was a scandanavian conference of the nordic countries. Sweden was well represented. No empty chairs. And the temple is doing fine too.

[why me]

Which makes it all the more remarkable that the most stalwart of believers in our church would be found among the better-educated class.

To me, it says something about the appeal of Mormonism, properly understood, to the mind and the soul.

One reason for this is that well educated people can put on their critical thinking caps and see much faith in the Joseph Smith story. Also, they can separate hypothetical illustrations from facts. And they understand that people are just human beings regardless of their status in the church.

[why me]

When you take into account the Don Bradley's of the world, it doesn't quite hold water that the more educated the less likely to doubt. And Don Bradley gives someone hope that they can come back to a belief too, it may be different and even more rich, or enough to get one through, but it is something.

Don is a good case for an educated person who came back to the fold because of the intellectual research that he did over issues that troubled him. He researched the history and realized that the critics have it wrong and he came back. He researched Fanny Alger and the Kinderhook plates and found some interesting details that helped him to come back to the church.

[Tacenda]

Thank you for giving credit where it's due.

Yes, I was asked about it the other day and responded (correctly, as it turns out) that a colleague of mine was at that very moment, working on a piece.

The author, Joe Walker, and I conversed about it yesterday. He expressed that it had been his intent to bring some perspective and insight to the subject by giving it a broader treatment than merely rehashing the events in Sweden, which, after all, are only a microcosm of what has been going on around the Church. I'm proud of him for the work he has done here.

I've known Joe for many years. He is a superb journalist and an even finer human being: compassionate, caring, intelligent and -- it sounds cliche to say so but true in his case -- a friend to everyone.

I wish there were some way to sneak this article by Jeff Lindsay in the DN! http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2013/07/weighing-mormonism-thoughts-for-mormon.html

Also, here are a couple comments about his article concerning a GA and a church employee. Surely the church needs to educate the representatives of the church, then the trickle down method will help the lay church men and women.

From the comment section.....

Anonymous said...

I appreciate the original post as well as the commenders' words. However I am very concerns with the comments that seem to be putting down those who are being confronted with truths they didn't previously know, "How could they not know? I knew." "That is old news." Etc. In reality, most LDS learn about the church through our weekly meetings, through correlated manuals and through very watered down articles in the Ensign, The Era and the Friend.

In February, two historians with the JSP project came to our Davis County, Utah ward (certainly not Sweden) and gave a fireside on some of the more interesting things they have found. One of the historian/editors told us that there is no evidence that the golden plates were translated using any other method than the peep stones, When he taught that to his BYU class last semester, he received a VERY angry telephone call from one of the general authorities. The general authority, calling from SLC, told him to stop teaching lies and falsehoods to his granddaughter who was in that class, This historian was then faced with the awkward job of telling the GA the truth.

Also, he mentioned to us that he has two seminary teachers in his ward along the wasatch front. Seminary teachers, one would think, should know a lot about the church. It wasn't until the historian recently told them, that either of these two knew that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy,

Yes, we all know--as does everyone else in the world--that BY practiced polygamy. But mot Mormons truly do not know anything about Joseph Smith's polygamy. This is NOT helped by our GD lessons which never mention it OR movies like Legacy which portray Joseph and Emma as a blissfully happy, monogamous couple.

Stop asking how these people can't be as smart as you and start to realize that we are all to blame for this problem

And another comment here....

Anonymous said...

I was preparing for a lesson (primary age 4) and saw that the lesson said only that Joseph Smith used the urim and thummin to translate the plates. From the Joseph Smith Papers project, we can learn that he only used the peep stone, I recently contacted the church and suggested they alter this lesson to include more factual information and referenced the Joseph Smith Papers project. (Hmm, why do we wonder why people don't know the truth about the church and its history when we are actually teaching mis truths?) Anyway, I received a reply yesterday. The person who replied asked me what the Joseph Smith Papers project is.

[Calm]

The situation in sweden is not so bad. I don't think that there is an exodus at all. True, Hans is a problem. But most people have not deserted the ship. Just a couple of months ago there was a scandanavian conference of the nordic countries. Sweden was well represented. No empty chairs. And the temple is doing fine too.

Am curious as to your source on this, why me. Would you share it please?

[canard78]

I wish there were some way to sneak this article by Jeff Lindsay in the DN! http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2013/07/weighing-mormonism-thoughts-for-mormon.html

Also, here are a couple comments about his article concerning a GA and a church employee. Surely the church needs to educate the representatives of the church, then the trickle down method will help the lay church men and women.

From the comment section.....

Anonymous said...

I appreciate the original post as well as the commenders' words. However I am very concerns with the comments that seem to be putting down those who are being confronted with truths they didn't previously know, "How could they not know? I knew." "That is old news." Etc. In reality, most LDS learn about the church through our weekly meetings, through correlated manuals and through very watered down articles in the Ensign, The Era and the Friend.

In February, two historians with the JSP project came to our Davis County, Utah ward (certainly not Sweden) and gave a fireside on some of the more interesting things they have found. One of the historian/editors told us that there is no evidence that the golden plates were translated using any other method than the peep stones, When he taught that to his BYU class last semester, he received a VERY angry telephone call from one of the general authorities. The general authority, calling from SLC, told him to stop teaching lies and falsehoods to his granddaughter who was in that class, This historian was then faced with the awkward job of telling the GA the truth.

Also, he mentioned to us that he has two seminary teachers in his ward along the wasatch front. Seminary teachers, one would think, should know a lot about the church. It wasn't until the historian recently told them, that either of these two knew that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy,

Yes, we all know--as does everyone else in the world--that BY practiced polygamy. But mot Mormons truly do not know anything about Joseph Smith's polygamy. This is NOT helped by our GD lessons which never mention it OR movies like Legacy which portray Joseph and Emma as a blissfully happy, monogamous couple.

Stop asking how these people can't be as smart as you and start to realize that we are all to blame for this problem

And another comment here....

Anonymous said...

I was preparing for a lesson (primary age 4) and saw that the lesson said only that Joseph Smith used the urim and thummin to translate the plates. From the Joseph Smith Papers project, we can learn that he only used the peep stone, I recently contacted the church and suggested they alter this lesson to include more factual information and referenced the Joseph Smith Papers project. (Hmm, why do we wonder why people don't know the truth about the church and its history when we are actually teaching mis truths?) Anyway, I received a reply yesterday. The person who replied asked me what the Joseph Smith Papers project is.

Thanks for sharing this Tacenda.

I loved Jeff's post. I've met him a few times and really admire his dedication to his 'calling' in life. He has written a couple of blogs on the theme of not patronising or ostracising those who doubt or even those who leave entirely.

The comments were also useful.

I think those of us on this forum who live and breath the church history forget that many members don't give it a second glance. And shouldn't be criticised for it.

Knowing church history won't save souls. I say that fully appreciating the irony of me saying that given my frequent 'outrage' at church history.

One little thought to the final comment you quoted. In the church we hear 'Urim and Thummin' and think of the Nephite spectacles/breastplate. But they weren't called the U&T by Moroni or, initially, Joseph. U&T was a name applied later to the Nephite interpreters and, sometimes, the peep stone. Over time I think it's been more a case of lost awareness rather than active deceit. And those who may have knowingly wrote the peep stone out of Mormon general awareness probably did it with the best of intentions. "I always prefer to believe the best of everybody -- it saves so much trouble." Kipling, Rudyard

In the end, whatever he used was nothing more than a spiritual muse to help him get in the right frame of mind to dictate scripture by the spirit.

As bro. Turley said at the Swedish fireside, when Joseph said 'translate' he meant 'receiving revelation.' Whether the original words come from Mormon or not doesn't make a difference to whether we can believe it to ultimately be of divine origins.

[canard78]

Don is a good case for an educated person who came back to the fold because of the intellectual research that he did over issues that troubled him. He researched the history and realized that the critics have it wrong and he came back. He researched Fanny Alger and the Kinderhook plates and found some interesting details that helped him to come back to the church.

Given Don participates here I'm sure he can speak for himself, but I was under the impression from his interviews that his motivation for return was not intellectual or educational but rather a moment of personal tragedy which raised the need to answer the "terrible question."

[canard78]

Which makes it all the more remarkable that the most stalwart of believers in our church would be found among the better-educated class.

To me, it says something about the appeal of Mormonism, properly understood, to the mind and the soul.

I'd refer you again to the long note I posted to Robert.

I agreed that the Pew research is far more reliable and representative but I'd suggest some caution with the way you're interpreting the data in your post.

Having gone through the whole report (and wishing I could get my hands on an SPSS file to run a few more data cuts) I'd suggest a couple of things to bear in mind that may be the driver behind the higher educated stat:

http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Christian/Mormon/Mormons%20in%20America.pdf

- More converts than mormon-born say they have some doubts about doctrine

- More converts have lower education

- More converts are non-white, non-Utahn

- More converts are women and around half are over college age at baptism.

- RMs are more likely to go to college

So it may simply be that those raised in the church are in an environment that will make them more likely to go on a mission and get a good education. It may not mean that being better educated is the cause or driver for having less doubts about the church.

Finally, the sampling error on College grads was +/- 7% and the error for High school only was +/- 8.5%. So there may be very little difference after all that anyway.

Edited July 28, 2013 by canard78

[Gervin]

(and wishing I could get my hands on an SPSS file to run a few more data cuts)

hard for me to imagine a "wish" consisting of a desire to "do some math." my scars run deep.

[Scott Lloyd]

Many possibilities. But I don't think it would be safe to tell the young men tomorrow in church that, "if you get the highest possible education you will be less likely to doubt "

Could I tell them, based on this study, that they need not fear that becoming well educated/well informed will bring about a downfall to their faith?

I have an immediate reason for asking. I intend to do that very thing as I speak in sacrament meeting tomorrow. My assigned topic is media and entertainment, and I am taking the approach that we should embrace the mass media as a God-given tool to help us do as the 13th Article of Faith says, to seek after everything that is "virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy."

Edited July 28, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[canard78]

[FYI, I'm not trying to quote you out of context here, Canard, I just wanted to "cut to the chase" and include only what I'm responding to, since your post is available in its entirety elsewhere on the thread. Please don't be offended if you don't think I included enough.]

No worries - I think 'snipping' is a good thing. As you say, it stops having to reread a load of less relevant stuff and my full post is still there if someone wants to check the context.

I agree with your assertion above. I don't think that it's the case, necessarily, that the more education one has, the less one is prone to doubt. However, I do think that, in general, the higher one's educational level (depending on what field that education is in, perhaps) the more likely it is that one is able to tolerate ambiguity without feeling as though s/he must jettison an entire paradigm.

Does that make sense?

Yes, I think it's possible. A university education how me to not accept the first answer, to accept that everyone presents their best face first, to find out for myself and to go to the original source if possible. These skills have helped me navigate my faith transition and not 'throw the baby out with the bath water.'

It may even be that a straight read of the data is the accurate one - that higher education leads to less doubt. But I also wanted to highlight that most news outlets will quote a single figure when it suits the story. DN certainly quoted a more reputable source than NYT, but still may have, with no intended malice, not told the full story.

[canard78]

Could I tell them, based on this study, that they need not fear that becoming well educated/well informed will bring about a downfall to their faith?

I have an immediate reason for asking. I intend to do that very thing as I speak in sacrament meeting tomorrow. My assigned topic is media and entertainment, and I am taking the approach that we should embrace the mass media as a God-given tool to help us do as the 13th Article of Faith says, to seek after everything that is "virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy."

I would absolutely agree that, based on this data, getting a higher education will not undermine their faith. There are plenty of brilliant minds in the church that shows that it's not only a place for "dodos."

Another great article on the church newsroom says:

Religion and secularism, though, do not always have to be at odds. Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive. Each can benefit from the other. The encounter between the two can be a productive tension that provides opportunities to learn, not contradictions to avoid. Mormons, for example, believe that "the glory of God is intelligence." People of faith reject the notion that religious faith and practice are devoid of rational thought.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/relevance-religion

Edited July 28, 2013 by canard78

[Scott Lloyd]

I would absolutely agree that, based on this data, getting a higher education will not undermine their faith. There are plenty of brilliant minds in the church that shows that it's not only a place for "dodos."

Another great article on the church newsroom says:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/relevance-religion

Thanks for the quote. I can use it.

[canard78]

hard for me to imagine a "wish" consisting of a desire to "do some math." my scars run deep.

I nearly failed Maths. I boldly told my teacher "why should I care? I'll never do a job that will need any of this stuff anyway." I now work in market research and stats and love nothing more than an afternoon rooting around in an excel spreadsheet.

I wish I could find my old maths teacher though. I really owe him an apology and a big piece of humble pie.

[why me]

Am curious as to your source on this, why me. Would you share it please?

A couple of weeks ago, there was a major young adult conference in sweden, where young adults from all over Europe attended. The swedish young adults were well represented.

My question is simple: if the situation is so grave in sweden with apostacy soaring...why would the church hold a major young adult event there where young adults from all over Europe would attend? The event was called FestiNord. Next year's festival will be in Finland. I think that we are sounding alarm bells on the internet but the situation is not that alarming.

http://www.festinord.org/

Notice the video that was linked to their home page. This video was watched by countless young adults who went to their webpage for conference information. What great advice for everyone, especially the young adults.

One more thing: if one listens to the recording of the 'swedish rescue' event one would notice something very curious. The people who were causing the problems were located right next to the recorder and Hans was not that far away from the recorder. These were the people asking the main questions, attempting to embarrass the panelists and trip them up. The rest of the crowd were rather quiet, content on listening. I heard no booing, no yelling and no hissing. The people making the recording were doing this for a reason: To post it on the internet in hopes of embarrassing panelists who were addressing the audience. It really did not work since it was the people who made the recording who attempted to upset the meeting. No one else.

Edited July 28, 2013 by why me

[Calm]

A couple of weeks ago, there was a major young adult conference in sweden, where young adults from all over Europe attended. The swedish young adults were well represented.

You attended this?

[Scott Lloyd]

FestiNord was a tradition clear back when I was in Sweden on a mission in the mid-'70s and, I'm certain, much earlier than that. It would take a crisis of major proportions to cancel such a long-running event.

Moreover, it doesn't just involve LDS youth from Sweden, but from all of the Scandinavian countries and Finland.

[canard78]

One more thing: if one listens to the recording of the 'swedish rescue' event one would notice something very curious. The people who were causing the problems were located right next to the recorder and Hans was not that far away from the recorder. These were the people asking the main questions, attempting to embarrass the panelists and trip them up. The rest of the crowd were rather quiet, content on listening. I heard no booing, no yelling and no hissing. The people making the recording were doing this for a reason: To post it on the internet in hopes of embarrassing panelists who were addressing the audience. It really did not work since it was the people who made the recording who attempted to upset the meeting. No one else.

Why should there be booing and hissing? It's not the circus.

It was a group of about 25 people. In any group setting (take a Sunday school lesson) there is always a vocal minority and a listening majority.

And why assume the worst? Why assume the people were there to trip them? Maybe they were there with sincere questions.

If I has an audience with a church historian I'd be interested in their perspectives on the same things. But I wouldn't be trying to embarrass them.

[why me]

Why should there be booing and hissing? It's not the circus.

It was a group of about 25 people. In any group setting (take a Sunday school lesson) there is always a vocal minority and a listening majority.

And why assume the worst? Why assume the people were there to trip them? Maybe they were there with sincere questions.

If I has an audience with a church historian I'd be interested in their perspectives on the same things. But I wouldn't be trying to embarrass them.

Reading the critics about this event, I have the impression that the crowd listening was giving the panelists a hard time and the swedes were taking no malarky from the panelists. But this was far from the truth. If the guys who were recording the event did not ask the questions, very few people would have raised their hands to ask a question. And if they did, the questions would be respectful in tone. The recorders of the event wanted to sound hurt and disrespectful for the effect it would have when they posted it on the internet. I only heard disrespect from mainly the recorders and Hans.

[why me]

FestiNord was a tradition clear back when I was in Sweden on a mission in the mid-'70s and, I'm certain, much earlier than that. It would take a crisis of major proportions to cancel such a long-running event.

Moreover, it doesn't just involve LDS youth from Sweden, but from all of the Scandinavian countries and Finland.

In fact, it involves young adults from all over europe. There was a good size contingent from the UK. And you are right...it would take a crisis of major proportions to cancel such an event. And this is why i suggested that the crisis is not what the critics say it is. Also, there has been no trickle down effect to other nordic countries and the last stake conference in the nordic area included all the stakes in the nordic countries and a GA spoke to the nordic members along with the area seventy and Thomas S. Monson. And the main event was coming from Sweden.

Edited July 28, 2013 by why me

[why me]

You attended this?

My daughter did. She wanted to meet this young man that she met before she went on her mission. She said no one mentioned a great apostacy in Sweden and the Swedes were well represented. No one was in crisis mode.