Will Neuroscience Challenge Christian And Lds Views Of The Body/Soul

[noel00]

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/nancy%20murphy_essay.pdf

It seems that neurscience is presenting a challenge to traditional views of the soul. Why do some people who previously nice people after damage to part of the brain become nasty? I read somewhere that a place for empathy exists in the brain but that psychopaths lack this.

[EllenMaksoud]

http://www.michaelsh...urphy_essay.pdf

It seems that neurscience is presenting a challenge to traditional views of the soul. Why do some people who previously nice people after damage to part of the brain become nasty? I read somewhere that a place for empathy exists in the brain but that psychopaths lack this.

I think this is called the Amigdala, though it is located deep in what is called the reptile brain. (Google: Three brain model)

It would not be the first time that science has driven belief; look at Columbus, Copernicus and others. I doubt that science will stop religion because, rightly the more we know, the more greatful we should be to Heavenly Father. This from a writer of science fiction.

Knowlege is expanding at an exponential rate (Google: exponential), and in the next 50 years I think that knowlege will double. The challenge shall be to guide our knowlege and not allow it to destroy us. Heaven forbid that our automated war machines will turn on us.

I think that as brain science progresses, we'll resolve MS, schitzophrenia, bi polar disorder, and the whole Gay/lesbian issue. I think that one day the final bastion of the soul will be broken down, and science will expect to find certain combinations of chemical compounds, but instead they will look inside and find God looking out.

[halconero]

I cringed at first when I saw the title, but forced myself to read it and found it quite enjoyable. I don't agree with her on many points, but I'll admit that she presented them well and managed to provoke questions.

For those of you who haven't read the article, from what I gather the author posits that the philosophy that the human is composed of body and soul allowed us to attribute our nature to that second immaterial part of us. As science has shown that our nature is tied to our body then that throws the old philosophy for a loop. Her solution is to deny the existence of a soul/spirit distinct from the body. She says that this helps us focus on the teachings of Jesus even more, as how we treat the body (made of biology and nature, without the soul) of ourselves and others becomes of increased importance, as does our families, relationships etc. She does not deny the resurrection, but the immortality of the soul.

How does this affect latter-day saint belief?

My personal answer: not too much.

First off, as she correctly points out, much of the Christian belief concerning the nature of body and soul, and the nature of the spirit, is the result of neo-platonic lines of reason. The spirit is immaterial, distinct from mortal experience, etc. Personality, will, and drive are the domains of this immaterial soul.

"My claim, in short, is this: all of the human capacities once attributed to the immaterial mind or soul are now yielding to the insights of neurobiology."

What does Joseph Smith have to say about the immaterial soul?

"There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes. We cannot see it, but when our bodies are purified, we shall see that it is all matter."

In latter-day saint belief the spirit is just as physical as the body is. It is capable (and even necessary in the Gospel plan) that the spirit undergo death and resurrection as well. When these two physical entities are combined (body and spirit) in a fallen world they are both subject to the damaging effects of that world, things that wound the body and the spirit.

Furthermore the body is just as spiritual as the spirit is. This may seem like a novel idea, but D&C states that to God, all of his creations and commandments, even those that seem temporal (mortal/physical), are spiritual. "Physical" commandments, such as the Word of Wisdom, Fasting or Chastity, provide blessings if kept that are physical and spiritual, and, if we're being true to theology, there really is no distinction between the two types.

It's 11:30 here, and just got off from a 14 hour work shift, so if any of this doesn't make any sense, I blame it on that.

[CV75]

http://www.michaelsh...urphy_essay.pdf

It seems that neurscience is presenting a challenge to traditional views of the soul. Why do some people who previously nice people after damage to part of the brain become nasty? I read somewhere that a place for empathy exists in the brain but that psychopaths lack this.

There has always been a challenge: "...the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." The brain is subject to the problems faced by any other kind of flesh.

[longview]

. . . . .

. . . . .

What does Joseph Smith have to say about the immaterial soul?

"There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes. We cannot see it, but when our bodies are purified, we shall see that it is all matter."

In latter-day saint belief the spirit is just as physical as the body is. It is capable (and even necessary in the Gospel plan) that the spirit undergo death and resurrection as well. When these two physical entities are combined (body and spirit) in a fallen world they are both subject to the damaging effects of that world, things that wound the body and the spirit.

Furthermore the body is just as spiritual as the spirit is. This may seem like a novel idea, but D&C states that to God, all of his creations and commandments, even those that seem temporal (mortal/physical), are spiritual. "Physical" commandments, such as the Word of Wisdom, Fasting or Chastity, provide blessings if kept that are physical and spiritual, and, if we're being true to theology, there really is no distinction between the two types.

It's 11:30 here, and just got off from a 14 hour work shift, so if any of this doesn't make any sense, I blame it on that.

The spirit body consists of matter that is pure and more fine. The mortal body consists of "coarse" very heavy elements. The mortal body cannot observe the spirit body. Only your spirit self can observe the spiritual but the "veil" that is over the "spiritual mind" is inhibiting our ability to see and limiting our recollection of our "pre-existence".

The spirit body cannot die in the sense that the mortal body cease to function and rot away and turn to dust. "Spiritual Death" occurs only when the person (pre or post mortality and pre or post resurrection) is cast from the presence of God the Father. But the spirit body continues to function with undiminished immortality.

I was a computer programmer for 30 years and many times I have thought about the human brain. The computer chip can represent data as a series of ones and zeroes. How much data can a brain neuron hold? How many other neurons can the neuron signal? Does the neuron have the ability to selectively signal one or more other neurons and not trigger the remainder of its connecting neurons?

At this time I do not believe the scientists are able to map out completely the "algorithms" of the brain. Another challenge to is to map out the "coding" that is embedded within the DNA strands and chromosomes (series of very complex structures of nucleotides). When this is done, the scientists will have to ask the question: "Does the brain have enough complexity or capacity to account for the person's intelligence or self-awareness?" I believe at that time the answer will be that the brain will account for only a very small fraction that is required.

The real "repository" is to be found in the spirit person. The human brain is merely a "terminal" or communication device that is somehow attached to the spirit person. The resurrection will result in a glorified body that will far exceed anything we have seen in the spirit or spirit/human bodies.

Another question to ask is: "If we live in a multi-dimensional universe, how many are required for spirit matter and how many are required for "coarse" matter?" And "How do they overlap or interact?"

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.michaelsh...urphy_essay.pdf

It seems that neurscience is presenting a challenge to traditional views of the soul. Why do some people who previously nice people after damage to part of the brain become nasty? I read somewhere that a place for empathy exists in the brain but that psychopaths lack this.

Everything we see, hear, feel, smell, taste, is processed through our brains. Damage or take any one part of that information system away and it has major implications for what we do. IE; Take away a major component of an automobile, and they either run poorly or not at all.

[noel00]

If the two hemispheres are split we have two personalities. Which ones does the spirit then inhabit?

[noel00]

_{Chris Smith said it better than I can}

_{"We can see this even more clearly with other kinds of changes. Say you're naturally kind of a jerk. If I shoot you full of enough oxytocin, I can make you a more ethical person. Have you "lost" your bad attitude? Are you "disabled" because you're no longer the jerk you were born to be? By giving you this chemical, I have changed your very nature by changing your physical brain. When God resurrects you, is he going to restore the jerkishness you've "lost"? Is he going to "reverse" the "brain damage" I've caused?}

_{Already you begin to see the problem, and this is just one small example. Every day that you experience new things and make new decisions, your physical brain is changing. Memories are stored in the physical brain as it makes new connections. Habits and addictions form new connections in the brain. Allow yourself to get mad a lot, and your brain starts producing more angry-making chemicals. Meditate, and you'll strengthen the centers of emotional control. Everything you do, experience, eat, or take intravenously affects the chemistry of your brain, and—as a result—your personality. Which of these changes represents a "loss" that will have to be reversed in the resurrection, and which of them is simply a change? Every change to the brain destroys the person you were before that change occurred, but every change also creates you anew. Every "loss" short of brain death is constructive and constitutive of a new "you"}

Edited July 22, 2013 by noel00

[CV75]

_{Chris Smith said it better than I can}

_{"We can see this even more clearly with other kinds of changes. Say you're naturally kind of a jerk. If I shoot you full of enough oxytocin, I can make you a more ethical person. Have you "lost" your bad attitude? Are you "disabled" because you're no longer the jerk you were born to be? By giving you this chemical, I have changed your very nature by changing your physical brain. When God resurrects you, is he going to restore the jerkishness you've "lost"? Is he going to "reverse" the "brain damage" I've caused?}

_{Already you begin to see the problem, and this is just one small example. Every day that you experience new things and make new decisions, your physical brain is changing. Memories are stored in the physical brain as it makes new connections. Habits and addictions form new connections in the brain. Allow yourself to get mad a lot, and your brain starts producing more angry-making chemicals. Meditate, and you'll strengthen the centers of emotional control. Everything you do, experience, eat, or take intravenously affects the chemistry of your brain, and—as a result—your personality. Which of these changes represents a "loss" that will have to be reversed in the resurrection, and which of them is simply a change? Every change to the brain destroys the person you were before that change occurred, but every change also creates you anew. Every "loss" short of brain death is constructive and constitutive of a new "you"}

Picking up on this idea, a chemically-altered brain would be raised and “restored” into its “proper order” and “natural frame”, which allows the owner to “have a bright recollection,” being “raised to endless happiness …or to endless misery …according to his desires.” (Alma 11:43; 41:2, 4). I think this has more to do with the power of God over that brain than the power of that person’s spirit over his brain, or the power exerted upon his brain by others or by other means during his lifetime.

I also think the principle taught with regards to Alvin Smith applies. The phrase, “…who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry…” seems to allow that the state of resurrected brains would reflect the desires of the unadulterated spirit, or “according to the desire of their hearts.” (D&C 137). “…who would have [possessed a properly functioning brain] if they had been permitted to [have one]…”

[Questing Beast]

http://www.michaelsh...urphy_essay.pdf

It seems that neurscience is presenting a challenge to traditional views of the soul. Why do some people who previously nice people after damage to part of the brain become nasty? I read somewhere that a place for empathy exists in the brain but that psychopaths lack this.

I have in the past asserted that only after science can extract a memory from the brain and give it audio/visual "life", i.e. playback ability, that only then will I consider revising my belief that the physical brain is no more than a conduit for the mind, which exists "elsewhere" and operates via the physical brain. The reason for my belief is purely subjective and metaphysical. The actual evidence is leaning toward someday being able to do just what I described: and more: monitor any brain to "record" and store all impressions and memories, including dreams (shades of Future World). If this becomes reality, then no one will be able to show that "the mind" is a separate entity from the physical brain. Therefore, personality, or "the soul" is not immutable, but merely a product of biological balances, or imbalances, in the physical "machine" that is the brain. This eventuality will make belief in an afterlife even more difficult for more people, including probably me. But I have other ways of looking at existence that don't require evidence that "I" exist as an immortal, and that this life is only a "virtual reality" experience of my mind in a mortal state. Although, imho, that is the larger concept explaining the purpose of our species, it isn't necessarily true: what is necessarily true is that reality requires cause and effect, and therefore Existence In The First Place requires a Cause. My personal existence is known by that Cause, and it pleases me to believe that that includes immortality, so that I can learn to become a soul mate to "God". What shallow purpose a puny mortal span makes! But an immortal, "playing" at mortality so that by opposition I can learn what Joy Is and what it is not, now, that makes more sense of the Infinite Intellect that has caused Creation.... Edited July 23, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Bikeemikey]

Yes it will... along with all the other things that already do this.

Will religious believers maintain their faith... sure some will and some wont.

Just as there is no silver bullet to prove religious claims "true" there is also no silver bullet to prove them "false".

Neuro-science to some may become a vital part of the evidence for the existence of God.

[volgadon]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324493704578428843742209304.html

Some interesting thoughts on the "soul."

[thesometimesaint]

If the two hemispheres are split we have two personalities. Which ones does the spirit then inhabit?

We don't get two personalities. http://www.nature.com/news/the-split-brain-a-tale-of-two-halves-1.10213

[Freedom]

I do not believe there is any doctrine that stipulates our entire personality is eternal. Much of our character is determined by our physical circumstances. I doubt there were down syndrome or schizophrenic spirits. A person with bipolar disorder or ADHD has a personality that directly results from their physical condition. Someone dealing with chronic pain or any other physical challenge will develop distinct personality traits. This is part of our test, to see how we will deal with these challenges. The fact that our personalities are linked to our physical brain is every old news. I recall a story as a youth of a psychopath who was struck in the head during a prison fight. When he woke up he went into a deep depression because the physical injury awoke in him a conscience that he did not have previously. The debate we had in school was whether he should now be re-tried since he is no longer a violent offender. Would he be judged by god for the horrible crimes he committed while deprived of the ability to distinguish between right and wrong?

[thesometimesaint]

Freedom:

God take EVERYTHING into account.

[ERayR]

I cringed at first when I saw the title, but forced myself to read it and found it quite enjoyable. I don't agree with her on many points, but I'll admit that she presented them well and managed to provoke questions.

For those of you who haven't read the article, from what I gather the author posits that the philosophy that the human is composed of body and soul allowed us to attribute our nature to that second immaterial part of us. As science has shown that our nature is tied to our body then that throws the old philosophy for a loop. Her solution is to deny the existence of a soul/spirit distinct from the body. She says that this helps us focus on the teachings of Jesus even more, as how we treat the body (made of biology and nature, without the soul) of ourselves and others becomes of increased importance, as does our families, relationships etc. She does not deny the resurrection, but the immortality of the soul.

How does this affect latter-day saint belief?

My personal answer: not too much.

First off, as she correctly points out, much of the Christian belief concerning the nature of body and soul, and the nature of the spirit, is the result of neo-platonic lines of reason. The spirit is immaterial, distinct from mortal experience, etc. Personality, will, and drive are the domains of this immaterial soul.

"My claim, in short, is this: all of the human capacities once attributed to the immaterial mind or soul are now yielding to the insights of neurobiology."

What does Joseph Smith have to say about the immaterial soul?

"There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes. We cannot see it, but when our bodies are purified, we shall see that it is all matter."

In latter-day saint belief the spirit is just as physical as the body is. It is capable (and even necessary in the Gospel plan) that the spirit undergo death and resurrection as well. When these two physical entities are combined (body and spirit) in a fallen world they are both subject to the damaging effects of that world, things that wound the body and the spirit.

Furthermore the body is just as spiritual as the spirit is. This may seem like a novel idea, but D&C states that to God, all of his creations and commandments, even those that seem temporal (mortal/physical), are spiritual. "Physical" commandments, such as the Word of Wisdom, Fasting or Chastity, provide blessings if kept that are physical and spiritual, and, if we're being true to theology, there really is no distinction between the two types.

It's 11:30 here, and just got off from a 14 hour work shift, so if any of this doesn't make any sense, I blame it on that.

There are those who have attempted to weigh the soul with differing levels of success.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29

http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

[changed]

...personality, or "the soul" is not immutable, but merely a product of biological balances, or imbalances, in the physical "machine" that is the brain. ...

I was thinking the other day about the wide varety of different personalities that exist in the church - it seems like we should all have at least something in common with one another, that would cause all of us to be drawn to the same beliefs, and a common personality seems the obvious logical connection, but we don't have that. So if it's not a personality type that universally makes someone religious, then what's at our core that connects us and draws us all to the same thing? Is who we are synonomous with our personality type? or is there something else we should be seeing in one anothe besides just their personaolity?

[Bikeemikey]

I was thinking the other day about the wide varety of different personalities that exist in the church - it seems like we should all have at least something in common with one another, that would cause all of us to be drawn to the same beliefs, and a common personality seems the obvious logical connection, but we don't have that. So if it's not a personality type that universally makes someone religious, then what's at our core that connects us and draws us all to the same thing? Is who we are synonomous with our personality type? or is there something else we should be seeing in one anothe besides just their personaolity?

I do not think we are not all drawn to the same thing... we are all drawn to different things in a similar way.

[Daniel Peterson]

Issues posed by neuroscience are among those that the forthcoming 9 November Interpreter Foundation conference on science and Mormonism explicitly intends to address:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2013/07/cosmos-earth-and-man-save-the-date.html

I might also mention that the current number of Philosophia Christi, the journal of the Evangelical Philosophical Society, is a very good special issue devoted entirely to the nature of mind and its relationship to the brain.

[noel00]

Dan I notice that issue of the journal has no contributions by Nancy Murphy and Joel Green both scholars on this issue. There is a book Neuroscience Psychology and Religion. Pannenberg asks the question "When the life of the soul is conditioned in every detail by bodily organs and processes, how can it be detached from the body and survive it?" "He believes that modern believers must reconsider dualism in the face of the mounting evidence:the many studies of neurological damage and disease and many laboratory experiments on brain functions linked to our most human behaviors. This abandonment of dualistic "soul" can be hard medicine" p 107. When i read The Brain the Changes Itself I was amazed at how much the brain holds. He mentions a woman, depressed shot herself through the brain, She survived, was not longer depressed because she shot herself through the brain involved with the depression.The first book i mentioned has a case where a man sustained brain damage and went from a decent kind of man to a very unlikable and amoral person. I have not liked these findings. I have always wanted to think my deceased Mom and Dad are somewhere other than a bunch of bones in a grave.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/nancy%20murphy_essay.pdf

It seems that neurscience is presenting a challenge to traditional views of the soul. Why do some people who previously nice people after damage to part of the brain become nasty? I read somewhere that a place for empathy exists in the brain but that psychopaths lack this.

The term "damaged soul" has been around for centuries. My mother is going through the very angry time of Alhiemers,,and as a result her soul is damaged...she will stand looking at me and then realize I am her son and she gets angry at what she is going trough. This morning when she got up she wanted to know where I was...after a long conversation to myself and then a call to my sister she realized she had forgotten me again, and now has spent most of her day in bed crying, I have been doing some of my own. Nurscience has been changing the way we view the brain and the soul, concerning demonic possession for a very long time.

[Calm]

This morning when she got up she wanted to know where I was...after a long conversation to myself and then a call to my sister she realized she had forgotten me again, and now has spent most of her day in bed crying, I have been doing some of my own.

I am so sorry, Pa Pa, that you and your mother are going through this. There are very few things that qualify as "worse than this" in my view than what is happening to your family. It is nothing less than torture of the heart, mind and soul.

[Daniel Peterson]

Dan I notice that issue of the journal has no contributions by Nancy Murphy and Joel Green both scholars on this issue. There is a book Neuroscience Psychology and Religion. Pannenberg asks the question "When the life of the soul is conditioned in every detail by bodily organs and processes, how can it be detached from the body and survive it?" "He believes that modern believers must reconsider dualism in the face of the mounting evidence:the many studies of neurological damage and disease and many laboratory experiments on brain functions linked to our most human behaviors. This abandonment of dualistic "soul" can be hard medicine" p 107. When i read The Brain the Changes Itself I was amazed at how much the brain holds. He mentions a woman, depressed shot herself through the brain, She survived, was not longer depressed because she shot herself through the brain involved with the depression.The first book i mentioned has a case where a man sustained brain damage and went from a decent kind of man to a very unlikable and amoral person. I have not liked these findings. I have always wanted to think my deceased Mom and Dad are somewhere other than a bunch of bones in a grave.

They are. And I think the empirical evidence to support that is stronger than it has ever been.

You might want to get a copy of this issue of Philosophia Christi. It's not particularly easy going, but it's good -- at least, thus far.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I am so sorry, Pa Pa, that you and your mother are going through this. There are very few things that qualify as "worse than this" in my view than what is happening to your family. It is nothing less than torture of the heart, mind and soul.

It is the loosing of your parents while still living, then loosing them when they are dead and buried.

Went back and did an edit as words fail me to describe it, and IPad's ability to edit into words the wrong words. But alas my back does not allow me the opportunity to sit at a keyboard. So a shorter response...thank you for the king words.

.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Alvino]

What does Joseph Smith have to say about the immaterial soul?

"There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes. We cannot see it, but when our bodies are purified, we shall see that it is all matter."

In latter-day saint belief the spirit is just as physical as the body is.

Well, we don't know that because we have absolutely no idea what 'fine or pure' means. For all we know, it might be just as intractable as 'immaterial spirit'. All this to show that just calling the spirit 'more fine or pure' than normal matter is fruitless. We just have a semantic game here.

Furthermore the body is just as spiritual as the spirit is.This may seem like a novel idea, but D&C states that to God, all of his creations and commandments, even those that seem temporal (mortal/physical), are spiritual. "Physical" commandments, such as the Word of Wisdom, Fasting or Chastity, provide blessings if kept that are physical and spiritual, and, if we're being true to theology, there really is no distinction between the two types.

It's 11:30 here, and just got off from a 14 hour work shift, so if any of this doesn't make any sense, I blame it on that.

The body is just as spiritual as the spirit is... in a completely different sense of "spiritual" as the one you used to describe the spirit before.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Alvino