A Selfish Life

[stemelbow]

I've enjoyed the recent thread Mormon Doctrine Allows For Universal Exaltation And Progress - Even For Telestial/Terrestrial Inhabitants.

My thoughts (please get a chuckle at such an idea) here will relate somewhat to some of the ideas there.

Who wants exaltation? In recent years I have questioned whether I really desire this or not.

Salvaton means nothing to me if it does not include those who I love.

And if those I love end up in the Telestial while I find myself exalted? I would think I would have immense pain eternally if this happened. Or what if the opposite was the result?

or let's look at it this way, let's say I am exalted. (Yeah for me) But knowing that any other being out there could be in my shoes if given the same situational life I was. Say, a random muslim, representing a copy of me, ending up in the Terrestrial world all because he/she is prone to reject the Christ due to his/her paradigm? I'm not trying to suggest all Muslims will in the end reject Christ, or anything like that. But I could imagine if I were born elsewhere, in a different circumstance and time, I too might reject the very basic beliefs of Christianity. So if it plays out as I describe at all, I may be inclined to feel guilt for eternity. Why do I deserve somethign so grand while others are left with less? Particularly since in reality I wouldn't actually "deserve" exaltation anywho?

I don't want more than other people. I want other people to have more--or that seems the way I should be. Instead, I'm told to focus inwardly and work hard not to sin for my own personal salvation. Yet these same teachings are given to everyone. Not everyone is told this.

There is just too much pain and anguish. There is too much pain to come for me to want to free myself of it at the expense of others. Will there really be a feeling of, well I deserve exaltation? How would we live with ourselves?

in the end, it just doesn't sound so joyous to me. I ain't nothing and I don't deserve anything more than another.

[Questing Beast]

"All come short of the kingdom of God", and then we also have the "Mormon doctrine" of fairness and justice: nobody will be short-changed and all will have a fair and just opportunity to "convert" before the final judgment, etc. So all the bases are covered as per fairness and justice.

As I commented on that thread, I don't believe we are separated in the afterlife, anymore than we were separated in the preexistence, or here. We are always with each other....

[EllenMaksoud]

I've enjoyed the recent thread Mormon Doctrine Allows For Universal Exaltation And Progress - Even For Telestial/Terrestrial Inhabitants.

My thoughts (please get a chuckle at such an idea) here will relate somewhat to some of the ideas there.

Who wants exaltation? In recent years I have questioned whether I really desire this or not.

Salvaton means nothing to me if it does not include those who I love.

And if those I love end up in the Telestial while I find myself exalted? I would think I would have immense pain eternally if this happened. Or what if the opposite was the result?

or let's look at it this way, let's say I am exalted. (Yeah for me) But knowing that any other being out there could be in my shoes if given the same situational life I was. Say, a random muslim, representing a copy of me, ending up in the Terrestrial world all because he/she is prone to reject the Christ due to his/her paradigm? I'm not trying to suggest all Muslims will in the end reject Christ, or anything like that. But I could imagine if I were born elsewhere, in a different circumstance and time, I too might reject the very basic beliefs of Christianity. So if it plays out as I describe at all, I may be inclined to feel guilt for eternity. Why do I deserve somethign so grand while others are left with less? Particularly since in reality I wouldn't actually "deserve" exaltation anywho?

I don't want more than other people. I want other people to have more--or that seems the way I should be. Instead, I'm told to focus inwardly and work hard not to sin for my own personal salvation. Yet these same teachings are given to everyone. Not everyone is told this.

There is just too much pain and anguish. There is too much pain to come for me to want to free myself of it at the expense of others. Will there really be a feeling of, well I deserve exaltation? How would we live with ourselves?

in the end, it just doesn't sound so joyous to me. I ain't nothing and I don't deserve anything more than another.

Odd that you should mention Muslims. I was one, in fact when talking to certain people, I do not mention that I am not. Muslims are a mixed bag, as much so as Christians and Jews. I know a Sunni Muslim from Saudi Arabia that says Jesus Christ is the Messiah. The same for a Shia Muslim from Iran who holds Miriam (Mary) in the highest esteem, "She is the mother of The Christ, the savior of the World". Of course, the only Muslims we hear about, until recently, are the ones behaving badly. My experience with them was very mild and happened in the US. What I see happening with Muslims in other places hurts me greatly.

Talk about the three Kingdoms has troubled me, so my position is that Heavenly Father will take care of me and others. We must try to obey the covenants of the church. Believing in Joseph Smith as a prophet, the authority of the GA, and the truth of the Book of Mormon are givens. The long time Mormons have extensive study of the BOM and associated documents to fortify their understanding, Mostly, the LDS culture is nothing like anything I have experienced, a bit quirky, but also I believe is a reflection of the will of Heavenly Father.

[Garden Girl]

I've enjoyed the recent thread Mormon Doctrine Allows For Universal Exaltation And Progress - Even For Telestial/Terrestrial Inhabitants.

Salvaton means nothing to me if it does not include those who I love.

or let's look at it this way, let's say I am exalted. (Yeah for me) But knowing that any other being out there could be in my shoes if given the same situational life I was. Say, a random muslim, representing a copy of me, ending up in the Terrestrial world all because he/she is prone to reject the Christ due to his/her paradigm? I'm not trying to suggest all Muslims will in the end reject Christ, or anything like that. But I could imagine if I were born elsewhere, in a different circumstance and time, I too might reject the very basic beliefs of Christianity. So if it plays out as I describe at all, I may be inclined to feel guilt for eternity. Why do I deserve somethign so grand while others are left with less? Particularly since in reality I wouldn't actually "deserve" exaltation anywho?

Hello Stemelbow...

First of all, if it were me and I was of some other faith, particularly one that did not accept Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world, and then I died and was beyond the veil, and suddenly there was this incredible feeling of love (reported by NDE-ers), and there was beauty and peace, and there were beings/angels who were teaching me wondrous new precepts that I had never heard before, don't you think that in that situation one would tend to listen and marvel at such concepts being presented and under the circumstances tend to believe... don't you think that in that situation one would have a great desire learn and to repent and embrace those teachings... and that finally my knee would bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ?

And then... after receiving and understanding these teachings, I chose not to accept them and was eventually given a lesser place than you... why would you feel guilty? It was my choice... I was given the opportunity but willfully chose not to adhere to the teachings given... I felt comfortable and happy with my choice, so why wouldn't you feel glad for me... I was in a beautiful place of peace... what's not to feel happy for me rather than guilt...

from the beach on the most glorious day... sunny, clear sky, temp to be about 70... looking forward to a Relief Society barbecue on the beach where we will roast hot dogs and marshmallows and just sit around the fire ring socializing with my spiritual sisters for a fun evening...

GG

Edited July 11, 2013 by Garden Girl

[Calm]

There is too much pain to come for me to want to free myself of it at the expense of others.

How would it be at the expense of others? It is not as if there are only a limited number of slots in the CK available and if one is given to you, that means someone else can't get it. I am confused at what point you are trying to make here.

As to exaltation, the only thing that matters to me about it really is becoming one with God. I don't look at it as something more or less than what others have, I don't need to do that anymore than I need to compare my kids to other families' kids or my home to others' home. My life is what it is, others' lives are what they are. It is impossible to accurately compare them, to assign some sort of measurement of value especially when one takes into account that a good deal of that life's value is tied up in the preexistence and much is still to come after death in the Spirit World before Final Judgment...whatever that is.

I figure the rest will all follow from that so it's not something I have to worry about...not even my eternal family (they are God's children as much as they are my relatives, he cares for them probably much more than I am capable of at this point so why should I hesitate to place them in his hands), I just trust that the Lord is infinitely loving and thus all will work out for the best for everyone.

Of course, part of becoming one with God is learning to see things his way, best achieved in my opinion by following the two great commandments:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Edited July 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[Brian 2.0]

Having a sick toddler up all night and a teething one year old screaming alongside... I too question if I want exaltation and all that comes with it!

I sure hope spiritual teeth cut through spiritual gums like butter with no pain.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I've enjoyed the recent thread Mormon Doctrine Allows For Universal Exaltation And Progress - Even For Telestial/Terrestrial Inhabitants.

My thoughts (please get a chuckle at such an idea) here will relate somewhat to some of the ideas there.

Who wants exaltation? In recent years I have questioned whether I really desire this or not.

Salvaton means nothing to me if it does not include those who I love.

And if those I love end up in the Telestial while I find myself exalted? I would think I would have immense pain eternally if this happened. Or what if the opposite was the result?

or let's look at it this way, let's say I am exalted. (Yeah for me) But knowing that any other being out there could be in my shoes if given the same situational life I was. Say, a random muslim, representing a copy of me, ending up in the Terrestrial world all because he/she is prone to reject the Christ due to his/her paradigm? I'm not trying to suggest all Muslims will in the end reject Christ, or anything like that. But I could imagine if I were born elsewhere, in a different circumstance and time, I too might reject the very basic beliefs of Christianity. So if it plays out as I describe at all, I may be inclined to feel guilt for eternity. Why do I deserve somethign so grand while others are left with less? Particularly since in reality I wouldn't actually "deserve" exaltation anywho?

I don't want more than other people. I want other people to have more--or that seems the way I should be. Instead, I'm told to focus inwardly and work hard not to sin for my own personal salvation. Yet these same teachings are given to everyone. Not everyone is told this.

There is just too much pain and anguish. There is too much pain to come for me to want to free myself of it at the expense of others. Will there really be a feeling of, well I deserve exaltation? How would we live with ourselves?

in the end, it just doesn't sound so joyous to me. I ain't nothing and I don't deserve anything more than another.

I do not know the entire quote, but Joseph taught it. If we as parents live our convents, iand sure children stray...we will one day have us with us. I know of no better reason to remain faithful. We live our best and hope for the best...and if one would forget that, we should still live our best because of what God has done for us. Also free will...will exist forever, if you find yourself in the CK, or along through judgement you may choose whatever you want. If you opt out now, you will get what you aim for. Edited July 12, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[changed]

...Will there really be a feeling of, well I deserve exaltation? ...

It's not a matter of what we deserve, it's a matter of honoring those who have sacrificed on our behalf.

Example: I honor my mother's sacrifice to give me piano lessons, by doing the best I can at learning piano - it's not about me being proud that I'm awesome at the piano - it's about me honoring my mother, and showing everyone what an awesome mother she was through who I become...

and of coarse Jesus sacrificed for us, our Father sacrficied for us - our actions should therefore be a statement of honor/respect/cherishing who is trying to help us out. Whatever we do - it is not our personal accomplishment to be proud and self-righteous about - if we are able to be/do good, it isn't us - it is our teachers who are to be praised.

... we should still live our best because of what God has done for us. ...

exactly what Pa Pa said, sorry, I should have read all the comments first!

Edited July 11, 2013 by changed

[ERayR]

Instead, I'm told to focus inwardly and work hard not to sin for my own personal salvation. Yet these same teachings are given to everyone. Not everyone is told this.

There is just too much pain and anguish. There is too much pain to come for me to want to free myself of it at the expense of others. Will there really be a feeling of, well I deserve exaltation? How would we live with ourselves?

in the end, it just doesn't sound so joyous to me. I ain't nothing and I don't deserve anything more than another.

First of all I think you misunderstand the admonition to work on perfecting yourself. The purpose for this is that if you are not the best you can be and comfortable with yourself you can be of little or no help to others. The better you become the better you are able to lead and help those around you. Gods purpose is to help others to improve and be the best they can be. What is wrong with that?

The pain and anguish you see around you is not from being the best you can be but from others not becoming.

If you become the best you can be and become exalted and spend your efforts to help others be the best they can be what is wrong with recognizing your accomplishment. It is not about wanting or deserving "things". It is all about becoming able to help others reach their potential.

[changed]

Of course, part of becoming one with God is learning to see things his way, best achieved in my opinion by following the two great commandments:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

and it should also be noted, that the golden rule is not just a rule to love your neighbor - but also to love yourself.... if you hate yourself, and treat your neighbor as you treat yourself, that isn't good for anyone...

I think some people believe that humility means you are supposed to tear yourself down and think little of yourself - when this is not right. Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it is thinking of yourself less.

[changed]

...if you are not the best you can be and comfortable with yourself you can be of little or no help to others.

you know in airplanes, how they tell everyone to put their own mask on first? and then assist children? it's good advice.

[stemelbow]

I appreciate all the comments.

Is it really just me that gets the feeling that in pursuing exaltation we are in essence leaving others in the dust to attempt to plod a murky course?

I'll respond to a few comments more particularly.

QB:

"All come short of the kingdom of God", and then we also have the "Mormon doctrine" of fairness and justice: nobody will be short-changed and all will have a fair and just opportunity to "convert" before the final judgment, etc. So all the bases are covered as per fairness and justice.

Whats fairness and justice? Is it fair to say that someone who is prone to be biased against Christianity because of where and when he/she lived and accepts all the good principles of Christianity but ultimately can't see reason to believe there was a Savior that that person is given something less than say me?

Ellen:

I know a Sunni Muslim from Saudi Arabia that says Jesus Christ is the Messiah. The same for a Shia Muslim from Iran who holds Miriam (Mary) in the highest esteem, "She is the mother of The Christ, the savior of the World". Of course, the only Muslims we hear about, until recently, are the ones behaving badly.

I don't mean to offend anyone here. I was just using an example. If there are Muslims who believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah, then so be it. I simply wasn't aware.

Garden Girl:

First of all, if it were me and I was of some other faith, particularly one that did not accept Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world, and then I died and was beyond the veil, and suddenly there was this incredible feeling of love (reported by NDE-ers), and there was beauty and peace, and there were beings/angels who were teaching me wondrous new precepts that I had never heard before, don't you think that in that situation one would tend to listen and marvel at such concepts being presented and under the circumstances tend to believe... don't you think that in that situation one would have a great desire learn and to repent and embrace those teachings... and that finally my knee would bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ?

And then... after receiving and understanding these teachings, I chose not to accept them and was eventually given a lesser place than you... why would you feel guilty? It was my choice... I was given the opportunity but willfully chose not to adhere to the teachings given... I felt comfortable and happy with my choice, so why wouldn't you feel glad for me... I was in a beautiful place of peace... what's not to feel happy for me rather than guilt...

That sentence doesn't have near enough words in it. Anyway, those are a lot of "ifs". Also, I would feel guilty if such a person utlimately decided they just couldn't believe in Christ. Teachings are easy. Afterall everyone, or near everyone, wants to love others.

Cal:

How would it be at the expense of others? It is not as if there are only a limited number of slots in the CK available and if one is given to you, that means someone else can't get it. I am confused at what point you are trying to make here.

it feels like its at the expense of others because in essence the others couldn't, if I think about it, be any significant degree different than I. The way it comes off is some will, no matter what, end up in the Telestial or Outer Darkness. Its going to happen. Why should I sit idly by and accept that they are goign to get something less than me when in essence I don't really deserve the grandness that is exaltation?

[stemelbow]

I do not know the entire quote, but Joseph taught it. If we as parents live our convents, if our children stray...we will one day have us with us. I know of no better reason to remain faithful. We live our best and hope for the best...and if one would forget that, we should still live our best because of what God has done for us. Also free will...will exist forever, if you find yourself in the CK, or along through judgement you may choose whatever you want. If you opt out now, you will get what you aim for.

It doesn't sound so bad to opt out now. I may be destined to less than others, i guess.

[stemelbow]

It's not a matter of what we deserve, it's a matter of honoring those who have sacrificed on our behalf.

Example: I honor my mother's sacrifice to give me piano lessons, by doing the best I can at learning piano - it's not about me being proud that I'm awesome at the piano - it's about me honoring my mother, and showing everyone what an awesome mother she was through who I become...

and of coarse Jesus sacrificed for us, our Father sacrficied for us - our actions should therefore be a statement of honor/respect/cherishing who is trying to help us out. Whatever we do - it is not our personal accomplishment to be proud and self-righteous about - if we are able to be/do good, it isn't us - it is our teachers who are to be praised.

exactly what Pa Pa said, sorry, I should have read all the comments first!

I can agree with what you say in principle. But does ending up in the Terrestrial world show dishonor for those who sacrifice on our behalf? I mean a great majority, I hear, will end up somewhere other than the Celestial realm. Is it really that they simply chose not to honor Heavenly Father and Jesus? Do those who end up in the Celestial honor them any more? How so? And if so why would they get more than another?

[stemelbow]

First of all I think you misunderstand the admonition to work on perfecting yourself. The purpose for this is that if you are not the best you can be and comfortable with yourself you can be of little or no help to others. The better you become the better you are able to lead and help those around you. Gods purpose is to help others to improve and be the best they can be. What is wrong with that?

Again it's a nice principle, but its hard to see myself be any better than another to any significant degree. I can pray all day every day. i can work and give and do all I can, but I still sin. I'm still the same as my neighbor, essentially, who doesn't believe anything at all. If that non-believer remains a non-believer, but is the best he can be, we're told, he'll end up with less than I. That tells me theres somethign wrong with that.

The pain and anguish you see around you is not from being the best you can be but from others not becoming.

I don't think that's necessarily true. The pain and anguish is a result of many things. Some people are the best they can be and they still have many things they suffer from.

If you become the best you can be and become exalted and spend your efforts to help others be the best they can be what is wrong with recognizing your accomplishment. It is not about wanting or deserving "things". It is all about becoming able to help others reach their potential.

Nothing would be wrong if the best I can be was signicantly better than a non-believer who theoretically ends up with a lesser reward.

[Tacenda]

I can agree with what you say in principle. But does ending up in the Terrestrial world show dishonor for those who sacrifice on our behalf? I mean a great majority, I hear, will end up somewhere other than the Celestial realm. Is it really that they simply chose not to honor Heavenly Father and Jesus? Do those who end up in the Celestial honor them any more? How so? And if so why would they get more than another?

Someone once said that we'll be surprised at who ends up in the CK. We might be surprised if that SP or even GA doesn't make it, but that inactive person, who made their whole life about helping the misfortunate, end up there.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It doesn't sound so bad to opt out now. I may be destined to less than others, i guess.

It is a limit of future opportunities. I have always obeyed my parents because respect demands it. If you aim low you will miss low, and never find or know what it is like to hit the mark. Even if someone does not believe...not doing one',s best, is surrender, a cowards surrender, if for nothing more than pride...it is a life less lived!

[stemelbow]

and it should also be noted, that the golden rule is not just a rule to love your neighbor - but also to love yourself.... if you hate yourself, and treat your neighbor as you treat yourself, that isn't good for anyone...

I think some people believe that humility means you are supposed to tear yourself down and think little of yourself - when this is not right. Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it is thinking of yourself less.

Again I agree in Prinicple on this too. I just wanted to clarify being honest about and with oneself is not tearing yourself down or hating yourself. If I am no more than a non-believer in terms of being the best I can be--as Eray puts it, then I would feel terrible if I ended up with more than he/she.

[Calm]

I appreciate all the comments.

Is it really just me that gets the feeling that in pursuing exaltation we are in essence leaving others in the dust to attempt to plod a murky course?

I can only respond for myself, but it never occurred to me. In fact, we are taught that we cannot be saved without our dead so I've always assumed that means our living as well (since eventually everyone ends up dead)....so if we are working towards exaltation, it means we not only have to work for ourselves, but for our community. And that is why I think participating at church is so important as well as getting involved in our neighbourhoods.

it feels like its at the expense of others because in essence the others couldn't, if I think about it, be any significant degree different than I. The way it comes off is some will, no matter what, end up in the Telestial or Outer Darkness. Its going to happen. Why should I sit idly by and accept that they are goign to get something less than me when in essence I don't really deserve the grandness that is exaltation?

Because if they do end up there, the only, only reason why is because they have made one significant choice and that is to be there. Perhaps in nothing else was there anything significantly different between them and you, but when the Lord reached out his hand and said to all "be one with me" you reached out and grabbed it and they turned their backs and said "no thanks, rather be on my own".

And that is significant enough to measure the distance between exaltation and the telestial kingdom (while the SoP not only didn't even express minor gratitude or recognition of the offer, they slapped away his hand and acted as if it was an insult and probably said something along the lines of "I'd rather be covered in honey and buried in sand next to a nest of ants for eternity than associate with the likes of you").

Edited July 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[changed]

Is it really just me that gets the feeling that in pursuing exaltation we are in essence leaving others in the dust to attempt to plod a murky course?

As a parable, are children "left in the dust", lower, or less noble than adults? We all may be on different parts of our journey - we're all better than others in some areas, while they are better than us in other areas too - but we all have the same worth because we all have the same potential....

I don't call a 5yo stupid, or ignorant because they don't compare to a 20yo - I see them as having the same worth, and just on a different part of their journey... etc.

and we all have the same potential - so the 20yo does not have to feel bad about being more talented than the 5yo, and the 5yo does not have to feel bad about being 5 either (metaforically speeking). Just different parts of the journey.

and what is more noble - to overcome more? or to be perfect from the beginning? I honestly don't know what would be more noble.

Edited July 11, 2013 by changed

[stemelbow]

I can only respond for myself, but it never occurred to me. In fact, we are taught that we cannot be saved without our dead so I've always assumed that means our living as well (since eventually everyone ends up dead)....so if we are working towards exaltation, it means we not only have to work for ourselves, but for our community. And that is why I think participating at church is so important as well as getting involved in our neighbourhoods.

i won't do it justice because this is off the cuff, but as I recall, Kierkegaard would put it that our family and neighbors are essentially ourselves. There is just too much out there to find ourselves thinking in such small terms because if we do then we are in essence too self-involved. Every time we help a neighbor we are just building up future helps for ourselves and/or we are gaining some amount of praise or admiration. I personally don't feel the satisfaction for helping the neighbor anymore. I like to, but I'm so small in the great big world we live in it seems my help doesn't do a hill of beans. Afterall other people are starving, getting beat, and dying in other places.

Because if they do end up there, the only, only reason why is because they have made one significant choice and that is to be there. Perhaps in nothing else was there anything significantly different between them and you, but when the Lord reached out his hand and said to all "be one with me" you reached out and grabbed it and they turned their backs and said "no thanks, rather be on my own".

How do you know they said, "no thanks, rather be on my own"? Perhaps they reached but grabbed the wrong hand? They reached just like me. They simply were misled. That ain't cool.

And that is significant enough to measure the distance between exaltation and the telestial kingdom (while the SoP not only didn't even express minor gratitude or recognition of the offer, they slapped away his hand and acted as if it was an insult and probably said something along the lines of "I'd rather be covered in honey and buried in sand next to a nest of ants for eternity than associate with the likes of you").

Wasn't it Joseph who said something along the lines of Mormonism is wrong then he'd rather go to hell with the rest of the mormons (that was a terrible rendition, I know). Is that a function of the same attitude you mention here? I don't know that anyone, even the Telestial folks would ever say anything like "I'd rather be covered in honey and buried in sand next to a nest of ants for eternity than associate with the likes of you". Afterall every knee shall bow and tongue will confess that Jesus is teh Christ.

[ERayR]

Again it's a nice principle, but its hard to see myself be any better than another to any significant degree. I can pray all day every day. i can work and give and do all I can, but I still sin. I'm still the same as my neighbor, essentially, who doesn't believe anything at all. If that non-believer remains a non-believer, but is the best he can be, we're told, he'll end up with less than I. That tells me theres somethign wrong with that.

You are looking at this as if it were a contest. It is not. It is a self improvement project. It is not - am i better than my opponent. It is - am I better today than I was yesterday.

Why should everybody end up with the same. To me that is a damnable heresy. The purpose is to end up like

God who whose purpose is to help us. The better we get at it the more assets we will attract to ourselves to help us accomplish our purpose.

I don't think that's necessarily true. The pain and anguish is a result of many things. Some people are the best they can be and they still have many things they suffer from.

How well I know suffering and yet I am blessed. Yet what has that to do with your personal journey?

Nothing would be wrong if the best I can be was signicantly better than a non-believer who theoretically ends up with a lesser reward.

Again you are looking at it as a contest. Can you be incrementally better today than you were yesterday. That is the only reasonable measurement.

[Calm]

How do you know they said, "no thanks, rather be on my own"?

Because we are taught that each person has a fair and equal chance in the end to accept or reject God, that they will do it knowingly even if once they were blinded by deception (and personally I believe the condition of being blinded by deception which limits them to exclusion from the CK is a willingly and knowing acceptance of deception rather than truly being deceived, iow they wanted to be deceived, not just stumbled into it thinking it was the right thing to do). Edited July 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

Are children "left in the dust", lower, or less noble than adults? We all may be on different parts of our journey - we're all better than others in some areas, while they are better than us in other areas too - but we all have the same worth because we all have the same potential....

I don't call a 5yo stupid, or ignorant because they don't compare to a 20yo - I see them as having the same worth, and just on a different part of their journey... etc.

and we all have the same potential - so the 20yo does not have to feel bad about being more talented than the 5yo, and the 5yoi does not have to feel bad about being 5 either (metaforically speeking).

I'm honestly at a loss regarding what this all means in relation to my comments. Please help

[changed]

I taught a class of girls once, and we talked about jealousy - I asked, what do you do when you find someone to be jealous of? Do you feel bad, and worthless because they are better than you? and there will be people out there who are better than you - prettier, smarter, more talented - it's part of life - so what do you do? I told them here is what you do - instead of feeling bad and jealous and depressed - you instead have hope that whatever they have, you can get too. Like the way someone looks? the way they play ball? the A+ on their test? then learn from them, and go do thou likewise - study like them, do your hair like them, practice like them - if it is something good that you find yourself being jealous of - stop being jealous, and start learning how you can have whatever it is too... and if there is someone who is jealous of you too? then teach them - give them hope that they can have whatever you have too through their own work and enginuity. The point is to teach one another, learn from one another - that is how we all grow.... you can't learn if there is no one to learn from.

Edited July 11, 2013 by changed