A Selfish Life

stemelbow · July 11, 2013

You are looking at this as if it were a contest. It is not. It is a self improvement project. It is not - am i better than my opponent. It is - am I better today than I was yesterday.
Why should everybody end up with the same. To me that is a damnable heresy. The purpose is to end up like
God who whose purpose is to help us. The better we get at it the more assets we will attract to ourselves to help us accomplish our purpose.
How well I know suffering and yet I am blessed. Yet what has that to do with your personal journey?
Again you are looking at it as a contest. Can you be incrementally better today than you were yesterday. That is the only reasonable measurement.

I don't know what to say. You tell me I'm looking at it as a contest when I am not. I am saying, anyone could improve throughout their lives. Does improvement in and of itself qualify people for exaltation?

changed · July 11, 2013

I'm honestly at a loss regarding what this all means in relation to my comments. Please help

Sorry - just that we are all at a different part in our journey - just like a 5yo child does not yet know how to read well, or can't run as fast - but no one looks down on children as being stupid or of lesser worth because they cannot compete with a 20yo - we love 5yo's, they are cute, and even though there are things they are not very good at doing, there are other things that they teach us about (like how to be loving, how to be trusting etc. etc.). I like looking at everyone as I would comparing those of different ages - one is not better than another, one is just younger than the other... but all are the same because all have the same potential - our potentials are all the same through the atonement... so imagine what everyone can become, rather than where they are. See people as they will be, not where they are, and then everything evens out - and know that everyone has the same potential to become as God is.

Just imagine them, overcoming whatever it is that they are stuck at, and how glorious it will be when they have climbed their mountain, how they will have proved to everyone around them that you can overcome anything with help from God - have hope for them, and faith in them, and look forward to the day when everyone can rejoice in their accomplishments. Be an optimist!

Edited July 11, 2013 by changed

stemelbow · July 11, 2013

Because we are taught that each person has a fair and equal chance in the end to accept or reject God, that they will do it knowingly even if once they were blinded by deception (and personally I believe the condition of being blinded by deception which limits them to exclusion from the CK is a willingly and knowing acceptance of deception rather than truly being deceived, iow they wanted to be deceived, not just stumbled into it thinking it was the right thing to do).

And I hope you're right.

Edited July 11, 2013 by stemelbow

Calm · July 11, 2013

i won't do it justice because this is off the cuff, but as I recall, Kierkegaard would put it that our family and neighbors are essentially ourselves. There is just too much out there to find ourselves thinking in such small terms because if we do then we are in essence too self-involved. Every time we help a neighbor we are just building up future helps for ourselves and/or we are gaining some amount of praise or admiration.

In my opinion, we are as much our relationships as we are that eternal internal core because so much of our behaviour is interaction with others and our behaviour is what molds that inner core just as the inner core shapes our behaviour.

Wasn't it Joseph who said something along the lines of Mormonism is wrong then he'd rather go to hell with the rest of the mormons (that was a terrible rendition, I know).

I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/josephsmit192885.html#ijBMeMEMW4IIEftF.99

And the SoPs will at least at first stand before Christ and deny him as if they stand before the sun at noon day and deny that there is light in the sky, they would, if they had the chance, knowingly crucify Christ again.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng

Edited July 11, 2013 by calmoriah

ERayR · July 11, 2013

I don't know what to say. You tell me I'm looking at it as a contest when I am not. I am saying, anyone could improve throughout their lives. Does improvement in and of itself qualify people for exaltation?

You say you are not looking at it as a contest yet you keep comparing yourself to others.

A couple of quotes from one of your posts: ". . .but its hard to see myself be any better than another to any significant degree". "I'm still the same as my neighbor, essentially, who doesn't believe anything at all"

Calm · July 11, 2013

Does improvement in and of itself qualify people for exaltation?

No, it is about seeking God, having that desire to know and be with him and to help others do the same both in our hearts and minds and in our actions...and that leads to the type of improvement that leads to exaltation.

stemelbow · July 11, 2013

The other point I wanted to make regarding all of this is...God it seems to me will always feel misery. he weeps for our poor choices, particularly, I assume, as our choices eternally effect us. Well, there will always be those who make such choices, so there will always be weeping and mourning by our God. If we are to be like Him, then we will always have misery too. Well always want to weep.

changed · July 11, 2013

And I hope you're right.

of coarse they are right - God is just, anything that is not just is not in the plan.

Luke 12:47 - 48)

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Everyone is accountable only for what they know.

Calm · July 11, 2013

uh...yeah it would probably be better if you pm'd me these types of comments or questions

I will edit it from my post and you can edit it from yours then.

changed · July 11, 2013

No, it is about seeking God, having that desire to know and be with him and to help others do the same both in our hearts and minds and in our actions...

The "eternal plan of progression" is about improving ourselves I think - how could you come to know God without improving yourself?... want to know how to get to know someone? walk a mile in their shoes - I'd say it's impossible to know someone without becoming what they are.... so that would entail improvement for all of us.

Edited July 11, 2013 by changed

changed · July 11, 2013

The other point I wanted to make regarding all of this is...God it seems to me will always feel misery. he weeps for our poor choices, particularly, I assume, as our choices eternally effect us. Well, there will always be those who make such choices, so there will always be weeping and mourning by our God. If we are to be like Him, then we will always have misery too. Well always want to weep.

I think it comes down to seeing potential again - God sees more than the present, He can see the future, and so while there may be tears for the present, the knowledge of a glorious future would compensate for any temporary pains... refined in the fire, but refined - we all have to just concentrate on getting to that light at the end of the tunnel - rejoice in the light, have faith and hope in it.

Edited July 11, 2013 by changed

Calm · July 11, 2013

The other point I wanted to make regarding all of this is...God it seems to me will always feel misery. he weeps for our poor choices, particularly, I assume, as our choices eternally effect us. Well, there will always be those who make such choices, so there will always be weeping and mourning by our God. If we are to be like Him, then we will always have misery too. Well always want to weep.

Perhaps, but there will also be eternal and infinite Joy.

Is it better to feel nothing at all or even just feel mediocre all the time so as to avoid feeling pain?

I have been in a somewhat similar situation, a drug I took for three years more of less cut off the lows out of my life, muffled the pain so to speak, but it also prevented me from experiencing any high points. I felt like I was shuffling through life and not realizing it was the drug, was convinced that this was what my life was going to be like the rest of my mortality. At that point I hoped that as soon as my kids were grown and didn't need me anymore the Lord would find a way to let me be rid of the burden of that horrible sameness. It was the third day after I stopped taking it that I suddenly realized I was coming to life again as I was enjoying the feel of water on my skin, something I hadn't realized I had lost the delight of in the years past when I was swimming or walking in the rain or showering, etc. Slowly other things started to give me enjoyment in life as well, including joy but things also became hard and sorrowful and I cried and screamed again from time to time. I describe those three years as being wrapped in cotton balls, nothing ever hurt me, but nothing all that great managed to get through all the insulation either. There was never a misery like the misery of the sameness of not experiencing any depth to my feelings, whether they are sorrow or joy.

Perhaps others will make a different choice than I would and perhaps that will be one of the significant differences between those in exaltation and those who are not.

Edited July 11, 2013 by calmoriah

stemelbow · July 11, 2013

You say you are not looking at it as a contest yet you keep comparing yourself to others.
A couple of quotes from one of your posts: ". . .but its hard to see myself be any better than another to any significant degree". "I'm still the same as my neighbor, essentially, who doesn't believe anything at all"

Alright I got ya. Here's how I see it. The levels of salvation are dependent on us at this point. The actual work to reconcile and all that has taken place, so it's just a matter of us. What we have before us are commandments we must follow. Depending on how well we follow them, taking into account repentence, is what ultimately will decide what level of heaven we attain, right? So to get some context I see no other way to explain it but to draw comparisons between one person and another.

Calm · July 11, 2013

The "eternal plan of progression" is about improving ourselves I think - how could you come to know God without improving yourself?... want to know how to get to know someone? walk a mile in their shoes - I'd say it's impossible to know someone without becoming what they are.... so that would entail improvement for all of us.

I think it is a case of the chicken or the egg or the two halves of the scissors. You can't have one without the other.

I am not saying that improvement is not a part of progression, just that it is not the sole source of judgment for exaltation...at least that is how I read his remark "[d]oes improvement in and of itself".

And since something similar to this topic was being discussed elsewhere, someone happened to provide a link to scriptures on how we are judged by both our actions AND our desires (so not only how we have improved, but also how much more we want to improve if given the chance):

http://scottwoodward.org/judgment_worksanddesires.html

Edited July 11, 2013 by calmoriah

stemelbow · July 11, 2013

Eray:

Why should everybody end up with the same. To me that is a damnable heresy. The purpose is to end up like
God who whose purpose is to help us.

I wanted to comment on this too--missed it earlier. if our goal is to end up like God, then it is our goal to end up with the same. Why is that a damnable heresy? Is it a heresy only because we know that most will not end up like God? And why will they/we not end up like God?

ERayR · July 12, 2013

So to get some context I see no other way to explain it but to draw comparisons between one person and another.

So long as that other person is an earlier you that you are drawing comparisons to. Is today's me better than last weeks me.

ERayR · July 12, 2013

Eray:
I wanted to comment on this too--missed it earlier. if our goal is to end up like God, then it is our goal to end up with the same. Why is that a damnable heresy? Is it a heresy only because we know that most will not end up like God? And why will they/we not end up like God?

The heresy is that everybody has to end up with the same. Even those who end up celestialized will not all be the same. Jesus said "In my Fathers house are many mansions".

A place with no variety would be boring. Not everybody likes vanilla.

Edited July 12, 2013 by ERayR

Avatar4321 · July 12, 2013

Is it really just me that gets the feeling that in pursuing exaltation we are in essence leaving others in the dust to attempt to plod a murky course?

That would be impossible because we cannot be exalted alone. We are exalted as family units.

Duncan · July 12, 2013

Having a sick toddler up all night and a teething one year old screaming alongside... I too question if I want exaltation and all that comes with it!
I sure hope spiritual teeth cut through spiritual gums like butter with no pain.

sorry to hear that, my now 10 yr old son didn't have too many problems with getting teeth, his problem is he won't keep his yap shut!! hhahahahaahahhaha! oh, I love that kid

changed · July 12, 2013

Is today's me better than last weeks me.

“I am not what I ought to be, I am not what I want to be, I am not what I hope to be in another world; but still I am not what I once used to be, and by the grace of God I am what I am”

― John Newton

changed · July 12, 2013

A place with no variety would be boring. Not everybody likes vanilla.

The glory of heaven isn't - forgive the exaggeration - but a freak show to see all the diverse different weirdness that could be created in an infinite number of years (getting stranger and more different as people continually seek to see something new and strange)... I think the glory of heaven is love - together forever - seeing one another face to face, to know as we are known and all that... I'm not sure how "same" we will all be, but it won't be like one person is good at art, and another at science - after infinity, we will all be good at everything... jmo, but sameness - united in one goal, one heart and all that, it probably isn't that bad of a deal.

Calm · July 12, 2013

While we may all become experts at everything we turn our hand to, I don't see us as turning out as clones of each other in terms of likes and dislikes. I am sorry to say that I don't think that even an infinite number of eternities will ever make me fond of cowboy music or chick flicks and romance novels. I may be able to take joy in the enjoyment of another in such things, but ever enjoy them myself....not likely.

Edited July 12, 2013 by calmoriah

changed · July 12, 2013

While we may all become experts at everything we turn our hand to, I don't see us as turning out as clones of each other in terms of likes and dislikes. I am sorry to say that I don't think that even an infinite number of eternities will ever make me fond of cowboy music or chick flicks and romance novels. I may be able to take joy in the enjoyment of another in such things, but ever enjoy them myself....not likely.

consider the nature of Heavenly Father and Jesus -

from:https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng

"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”² We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true."

that seems like they are pretty much the same to me, I could be wrong though. It is interesting to think about - a few years from now, you and I might be almost exactly the same .

Edited July 12, 2013 by changed

Calm · July 12, 2013

Only if you don't like cowboy music and chick flicks and romance novels....

And no pork and beans either.

Edited July 12, 2013 by calmoriah

ERayR · July 12, 2013

The glory of heaven isn't - forgive the exaggeration - but a freak show to see all the diverse different weirdness that could be created in an infinite number of years (getting stranger and more different as people continually seek to see something new and strange)... I think the glory of heaven is love - together forever - seeing one another face to face, to know as we are known and all that... I'm not sure how "same" we will all be, but it won't be like one person is good at art, and another at science - after infinity, we will all be good at everything... jmo, but sameness - united in one goal, one heart and all that, it probably isn't that bad of a deal.

It took a

consider the nature of Heavenly Father and Jesus -
from:https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng
"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”² We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true."
that seems like they are pretty much the same to me, I could be wrong though. It is interesting to think about - a few years from now, you and I might be almost exactly the same .

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